Journey's End (3013/413)

[delsin2]

I enjoyed that episodes a lot. but felt bad for Doctor who lost everybody.

[Sealurk]

Im my eyes, The Current Doctor- and not the one in the Parallel world with Rose!, would now be the 11th Doctor, but many might not see it that way. ABout half way thru Journey's Earth, Thats when the Clone Doctor came into existance

I think this is more one of those things where it's just up to each individual fan as to whether he's 10 or 11 now. My personal preference is to keep calling him the 10th Doctor, because he didn't change, he just used up a regeneration 'slot' to heal himself and make Doctor Two.

I'm betting that with those Time Lords for whom regeneration is traumatic (more on this in a minute), it's something to be avoided at the best of times - and the 10th Doctor knew that with the TARDIS surrounded by Daleks, about to be destroyed or taken prisoner, etc, it was not the best of times to be dealing with a new personality, a new face (new teeth) and the standard post-regeneration stress, so he willingly used up one of his few remaining regenerations to heal himself, without the added fuss.

As a consequence, I think he is still 10, because he is in appearance, personality and biology, he just has one less regeneration available to him. That regeneration was instead used to make the clone, even if somewhat imperfectly. He would only be the 11th Doctor if he changed in some way, because he would be distinct from the prior incarnation.

Would I be right in saying that some Time Lords (in the classic series) seem to have effortless regenerations, its almost a casual act they perform to overcome boredom, and some Time Lords (like the Doctor, and apparently the Master) suffer very traumatic, painful regenerations that leave them disoriented and unstable for some time afterwards? If I'm wrong, please correct me!

[Coco Pops]

I think this is more one of those things where it's just up to each individual fan as to whether he's 10 or 11 now. My personal preference is to keep calling him the 10th Doctor, because he didn't change, he just used up a regeneration 'slot' to heal himself and make Doctor Two.

I'm betting that with those Time Lords for whom regeneration is traumatic (more on this in a minute), it's something to be avoided at the best of times - and the 10th Doctor knew that with the TARDIS surrounded by Daleks, about to be destroyed or taken prisoner, etc, it was not the best of times to be dealing with a new personality, a new face (new teeth) and the standard post-regeneration stress, so he willingly used up one of his few remaining regenerations to heal himself, without the added fuss.

As a consequence, I think he is still 10, because he is in appearance, personality and biology, he just has one less regeneration available to him. That regeneration was instead used to make the clone, even if somewhat imperfectly. He would only be the 11th Doctor if he changed in some way, because he would be distinct from the prior incarnation.

Would I be right in saying that some Time Lords (in the classic series) seem to have effortless regenerations, its almost a casual act they perform to overcome boredom, and some Time Lords (like the Doctor, and apparently the Master) suffer very traumatic, painful regenerations that leave them disoriented and unstable for some time afterwards? If I'm wrong, please correct me!

Welll didn't Romana go through 3 or 4 changes before she settled on one that she liked. I distinctly remember that she settled on the form of Princess Astra..... And didn't seem to have any discomfort or such.

[Madeleine]

That's a good way to look at it, cocopops, we all seem to call Lalla Ward "Romana mk II" rather than "Romana mk [2+however many practice attempts she made]".

[nx01a]

I thought Romana just went through possibilities in her head before deciding on an actual form to take?

[Mr Prophet]

I thought Romana just went through possibilities in her head before deciding on an actual form to take?

She tried them out for the Doctor to see, although I would presume that it would have counted as a single regeneration 'incident'; like the Doctor losing his hand and regrowing it as part as a single regeneration cycle.

[Xicer]

Time Ladies such as Romana apparently regenerate differently from Time Lords. Romana wasn't going through different regenerations when she was picking out the bodies, she was just showing the Doctor the different possibilities, that scene was part of her regenerative process. Time Ladies can choose which form they want to regenerate into whereas Time Lords cannot.

Anyway, I loved the episode, I've been waiting for it for a long time. I still need some time to gather my thoughts (I had to watch the late showing since I didn't know this was a 65min ep).

[Pitry]

Time Ladies such as Romana apparently regenerate differently from Time Lords. Romana wasn't going through different regenerations when she was picking out the bodies, she was just showing the Doctor the different possibilities, that scene was part of her regenerative process. Time Ladies can choose which form they want to regenerate into whereas Time Lords cannot.

Anyway, I loved the episode, I've been waiting for it for a long time. I still need some time to gather my thoughts (I had to watch the late showing since I didn't know this was a 65min ep).

Or, the Doctor just isn't very good at regenerating and never cared to learn how to do it better. He did only pass his Time Lord Acadamy exams the second time round, and even then just barely

When I watched Romana's regeneration I assumed the Doctor could have done something like that had he bothered paying more attention.
A bit like regrowing his hand on The Christmas Invasion.

[MasySyma]

An amazing finale!!! Yeah! Such a turn around from last week!! I loved this episode, and series 4 has been my favorite. The wait for new Who is going to be so hard as is the wait until November for the DVDs.

The Good
The companions: This week they were used well. Everyone served a purpose. I liked the use Sarah Jane in particular, and I realized that I missed Mickey. I liked the hints that he may appear later on in Who or other spinoffs. I wouldn't mind seeing more of him. I enjoyed how the episode showed that each companion has a full life now outside of the Doctor. They travel with him at times, but they have reasons to come home and someone to tell their stories too. I also liked the scene with them driving the Tardis and towing Earth. It helped explain why he can't drive the rest of the time (unless he chooses to).

Donna: CT was amazing, and I loved Donna all series, but I appreciated her here. I laughed so hard at her channeling her Doctor, and the end is perfect, hopeful and sad. I've always liked Donna, so while I didn't want to see her mind wiped, I see her being as strong once she acquires more confidence in her "real" life. I also appreciate that the Doctor couldn't kill her. He cared for his friend, and he also thought of the other people she would leave behind. A wounded Donna is better than no Donna.

The Doctors: When I saw rumors of at least two Doctors, I was worried. I remembered Ripple Effect from SG-1, when the Sams descend into technobabble agony. This didn't happen. In fact, I appreciated the subtlety of each Doctor coming to the same conclusions rather than all bouncing off the walls trying to out talk each other. I also felt so bad for our Doctor. He had a bad day. Yes, Earth was safe, but he was alone with his memories, and many of them weren't pleasant.

The AU Resolution:
Ok. Rose got what she wanted, a Doctor; I didn't mind the solution, but I do want that universe sealed up for good now. I want more series without Doctor/companion ship please.

The Ending:
Yes! Finally, a contemplative Doctor. I despised the What? What? What? at the end of Series 2 and 3. I wanted to see the Doctor's emotions and see him move on in the next episode. Finally we get a proper ending showing that the show is about the Doctor first, then the companions.

The Not So Amazing
Jackie: I like Jackie, but she had no business being in this episode. She isn't a member of Torchwood, and she can't handle Rose being in danger. If this is true, she has huge problems. Rose works for Torchwood in the AU, and if their Torchwood is like our Torchwood, the members risk their lives often and tend to die young. Their Torchwood may change due to having a Doctor now, but we should have heard of but not seen Jackie. If we needed to see Rose's family, we should have seen Pete as he funds Torchwood and is possibly in charge. All Jackie did was nearly get killed. I did like the Tony/Doctor joke though. I also could have accepted Jackie if she hadn't used the Rose in danger card and had said she just wanted to help the Doctor given he gave her Pete, Tony, and Rose.

I stayed up late to see this episode again, and it was worth it. A 12/10, and I suspect it may become my favorite.

[nx01a]

As much as I enjoyed the finale, I wonder what implications these events will have for Torchwood. The Doctor was able to skillfully manipulate the rift, wouldn't it have made sense for Jack to ask him for help with all the weirdness that usually comes through it? People's lives are destroyed every episode by it so asking the Doctor for help seems like the most logical thing. On the other hand, at the end of s3, Jack should and could have asked the same thing. That's just annoying me, that and the Doctor neutralizing Jack's teleport. It's not like he's a 21st C human with that capability. He's adept at using it, it's his native tech. Downright dumb to take away such an advantage from a supposed ally in the fight against evil. Then again, it's all about plot...

[ShadowMaat]

The teleport might be from Jack's century, but Jack isn't IN his century, is he? I wonder what would happen if Jack died again and someone removed the teleport device from his wrist and activated it before Jack could wake up and stop him? Might make things a bit tricky. I'm sure there are other reasons, some logical some Doctor-y, but while the teleport could certainly come in handy I can kinda understand why the Doctor disabled it. Again.

[nowvoyager908]

I really enjoyed the episode, although being a relative newcomer to Dr. Who, I'm still kind of sketchy on just how everybody (from past seasons) fits into the puzzle. I am now catching up on earlier seasons by watching older episodes on BBC America and even one of my local PBS channels, so maybe someday I will have the entire picture.

Unfortunately, the resolution to Donna's story left me ferklempt (thank you Mike Meyers). I felt even worse for her grandad. He so wanted her to experience the universe. She won't remember her travels, so she'll have no idea of what she is missing, but her grandfather will. And the tears in his eyes kind of got to me; not to mention the poor Doctor standing there in the pouring rain (yes, I am a sentimental sap).

A really good episode all around.

[Pitry]

The Ending:
Yes! Finally, a contemplative Doctor. I despised the What? What? What? at the end of Series 2 and 3. I wanted to see the Doctor's emotions and see him move on in the next episode. Finally we get a proper ending showing that the show is about the Doctor first, then the companions.

Contemplative? contemplative?!
*hugs poor, depressed Doctor*

As for the companions, I think the show is at least as much about them as it is about the Doctor, and I like it that way.Companions come and go so it's important they come in burst and be important for their limited run - Donna woudln't've been half as good if she wasn't the main attraction of a lot of the stories, and I do think one of the reasons Martha comes a bit off to some people is because during her year the Doctor was the main focus.

Ah, and a Jackie note... while I see your point, I have to admit I just adore her so much I was just glad she was there. And hey, the "no, not you Jackie, don't touch anything" scene was brilliant. After all these years and everything the Doctor is still afraid of her! Ha!

As much as I enjoyed the finale, I wonder what implications these events will have for Torchwood. The Doctor was able to skillfully manipulate the rift, wouldn't it have made sense for Jack to ask him for help with all the weirdness that usually comes through it? People's lives are destroyed every episode by it so asking the Doctor for help seems like the most logical thing. On the other hand, at the end of s3, Jack should and could have asked the same thing. That's just annoying me, that and the Doctor neutralizing Jack's teleport. It's not like he's a 21st C human with that capability. He's adept at using it, it's his native tech. Downright dumb to take away such an advantage from a supposed ally in the fight against evil. Then again, it's all about plot...

I don't think so - not just because the Doctor is unlikely to show up on Torchwood because of TPTB's decision, btu also because I would imagien Jack wouldn't want to rely too much on ht eDoctor - sure, he calls him if there's a major worldwide catastrophe that they just can't handle, but otherwise he'll go most of the way alone before he picks up the phone.

[MasySyma]

I don't think so - not just because the Doctor is unlikely to show up on Torchwood because of TPTB's decision, btu also because I would imagien Jack wouldn't want to rely too much on ht eDoctor - sure, he calls him if there's a major worldwide catastrophe that they just can't handle, but otherwise he'll go most of the way alone before he picks up the phone.

I agree with you, but I did find Jack and Torchwood's use in the finale a bit hypocritical of TPTB. It was fine last year when it was just Jack, but this year, we see his family. We even heard of Reese.

TPTB claim that they will never use the Doctor or Daleks in Torchwood because it might cause younger viewers to watch a show that is too adult for them, but then, they bring all of the current Torchwood staff into Doctor Who and show these same viewers (who might or might not need protecting) that Ianto and Gwen should be rescued and appreciated. They also hint that Martha and Mickey might hang out with Jack more. To me, TPTB might as well have thrown a Dalek in the Hub. These are characters people care about, and of course viewers might follow them. TPTB either need to elimate crossovers entirely (which I hope they don't) or stop worrying about younger viewers (it's their parents' job to worry about what the kiddies watch).

[nx01a]

I don't want the Doctor to show up in TW, maybe just to give Jack and crew some advice/guidance/more TARDIS coral to help them better control/manipulate the rift.

As for the teleport, we've already got working, apparently telepathic teleport technology [Project Indigo]. Taking away Jack's just makes it one-sided in favour of the would-be world-destroying UNIT. I'd also hope Jack's teleport has some kind of security lockout, so random people can't use it.

TPTB might as well have thrown a Dalek in the Hub.

They did! TW now has access to Dalek technology! I wonder if the Doctor took away the Dalek's remains, too?

I just think it'd downright stupid to neuter your friends' ability to defend themselves and others.