Resurrection Ship, Part 1 (211)

[Lightsabre]

But how are we to do that if you keep putting words in my mouth? It is quite clear that the "so ..." part (which I took the liberty to highlight) was never there in the first place.

That there is an awfully big "IF" -- and, if I may add, that big "IF" had already been vacated by the full body of the post (which was the reason for the "stand by" comment, btw). At the risk of repeating oneself, let me reiterate


Therefore, exactly on what were you disagreeing with me?

It was NOT vacated by the body of the post. You maintained that Roslin's presence is what stopped Adama from becoming Cain like.
Therefore, sans Roslin, he would be cain or close.
THAT is what I disagree with. And no, you never said it straight out, it was implied by the material.
ANd before you tell me I'm not paying close enough attention, consider that this is on the net and that I might have interpreted your post differently than you meant it to be. This does not mean I'm wrong. It simply means you were a little ambiguos on this point.
IF you didn't mean what I thought, just say that, rather than attempt to prove I'm 'wrong' or accuse me of putting words in your mouth.

[spg_1983]

No I actually think that she believes she can win the war with Pegasus, not simply take out as many cylons as she can, but to destroy them all. Then, the human race can continue with the people on Pegasus. Is it naive? Probably, but it was Adama's position at one point as well. He honestly thought that Galactica needed to stay and win the war by herself.

So from that standpoint, what do you do when you run across a helpless civilian ship? As harsh as it sounds, stripping it of valuable resources and taking along the most useful personnel would be the most effective military strategy. Otherwise, what do you do? Just leave it behind? It would be destroyed anyways. This way, at least Pegasus benefits and has a better fighting chance. Bring it along with you? Having to protect and support this other ship while your'e fighting cylons isn't going to win you many battles. The *only* other viable option is to do what Adama did - take it along with you and run away. Which again is not an option for Cain since she has already resolved that the only way to win the war and save humanity is to stay and fight.

The problem is that that plan and belief is not only naive, it is insane. Yes one must have confidence in their ship and abilities, but you must also be realistic, there is no way the Pegasus could survive battle with all the Basestars and cylon forces, even with hit and run tactics it will eventually wear Pegasus down. Plus what is the point of taking back the colonies if you have killed the colonists? sure you may be able to take back the physical land, but by killing, and thats what it is not sacrificing she is actually killing the civillians, the colonists, what is the point? She has destroyed what makes us human. Plus her duty as a military officer is to protect the colonists. Taking back the property of the colonies is secondary, her first duty is to the people.

[apollo123]

The problem is that that plan and belief is not only naive, it is insane. Yes one must have confidence in their ship and abilities, but you must also be realistic, there is no way the Pegasus could survive battle with all the Basestars and cylon forces, even with hit and run tactics it will eventually wear Pegasus down.

Which is why taking resupplying Pegasus whenever you get the chance is a good idea.

Plus what is the point of taking back the colonies if you have killed the colonists?

Well the people onboard Pegasus, the crew, are colonists too. They can rebuild the colonies even if all other humans are gone.

She has destroyed what makes us human. Plus her duty as a military officer is to protect the colonists. Taking back the property of the colonies is secondary, her first duty is to the people.

I won't deny that what she's doing is inhuman and completely immoral. But I wanted to point out that given her decision to fight instead of run, she didn't have too many options - strip the civilian ship or leave them to die. What els could she have done (besides run like Adama of course)?

It's a harsh and cruel option, but you can't say it wasn't a good strategic move. Doing that helped them win more battles, perhaps put them closer to winning the war. There maybe other colonists still alive and the sooner they win the war, the more likely they could be saved.

[spg_1983]

It's a harsh and cruel option, but you can't say it wasn't a good strategic move. Doing that helped them win more battles, perhaps put them closer to winning the war. There maybe other colonists still alive and the sooner they win the war, the more likely they could be saved.

actually I can say it wasn't a good strategic move. Her entire plan is poor strategy. One single ship, even with lots of spare parts, doesn't stand a chance. The fact that she would embark on this course shows that she has cracked. Any sane leader would realize that. There is nothing defensable about her actions. She is cracked and not stable. She may have convinced herself that she could possible win, but all she really cares about is causing the cylons pain. Her treatment of Gina is evidence of that. She just wants to hurt her.

[Lightsabre]

Which is why taking resupplying Pegasus whenever you get the chance is a good idea.

But by killing the people she's ostensibly winning the colonies back for?
If that sounds like a good and rational argument to her, then I'd suggest she's lost it.
Also, Pegasus CANNOT win alone.It needs support,. It needs to be resupplied, and often. Galactica is resupplied by refinery and food ships in the colonial fleet.
Pegasus, by abandoning them, has NO guarantee of resupply when it needs it.
If Cain's goal is to win back the colonies, then she should have kept the ships to resupply Pegasus.

Well the people onboard Pegasus, the crew, are colonists too. They can rebuild the colonies even if all other humans are gone.

And how many does she have? Is there even a viable gene pool?
How many women? How many women still of child bearing age?
What kind of tech base does she have? What kind of med base?
One warship cannot repopulate a planet. Unless it holds a crew in the thousands, the gene pool is not diverse enough to sustain itself.

I won't deny that what she's doing is inhuman and completely immoral. But I wanted to point out that given her decision to fight instead of run, she didn't have too many options - strip the civilian ship or leave them to die. What els could she have done (besides run like Adama of course)?

She didn't HAVE to strip them OR leave them. She could have taken them with her. At the very least, she could have left them their jump drives.
But, to me, given, as I and others have said, her first duty a military officer was protection of civilians, she should have revised her decision to fight to the death.
That she didn't means she is giving up the principles she claims to hold dear.
Same with her treatment of Roslin.

It's a harsh and cruel option, but you can't say it wasn't a good strategic move. Doing that helped them win more battles, perhaps put them closer to winning the war. There maybe other colonists still alive and the sooner they win the war, the more likely they could be saved.

Yes, I can.
As I said above, stripping the ships resupplied Pegasus for a short while. Keeping would mean resupply for a LONG time.
Cain has never been close to winning. She never had a chance with only one ship, a large portion of her crew killed and no viable support base.
Further, with more ships, she could have found a viable planet, settled it, built a tech base and taken back the colonies that way.

[Lightsabre]

actually I can say it wasn't a good strategic move. Her entire plan is poor strategy. One single ship, even with lots of spare parts, doesn't stand a chance. The fact that she would embark on this course shows that she has cracked. Any sane leader would realize that. There is nothing defensable about her actions. She is cracked and not stable. She may have convinced herself that she could possible win, but all she really cares about is causing the cylons pain. Her treatment of Gina is evidence of that. She just wants to hurt her.

AMen.

[Liebestraume]

It was NOT vacated by the body of the post. You maintained that Roslin's presence is what stopped Adama from becoming Cain like.
Therefore, sans Roslin, he would be cain or close.
THAT is what I disagree with. And no, you never said it straight out, it was implied by the material.
ANd before you tell me I'm not paying close enough attention, consider that this is on the net and that I might have interpreted your post differently than you meant it to be. This does not mean I'm wrong. It simply means you were a little ambiguos on this point.
IF you didn't mean what I thought, just say that, rather than attempt to prove I'm 'wrong' or accuse me of putting words in your mouth.

Oh, geeze, here we go again. More of the same presumption and flawed logic ...

For the last time, may I remind you the following is what I did say:

...In fact, part of my point was that they have entirely different mindset. The logical conclusion would have been that [Adama] would never have become Cain.

As for the rest ... I have absolutely no interest in your being "right" or "wrong" but simply in explaining my position to you. But I'll cease such an exercise in futility and let this thread stay on Resurrection Ship, Part 1 discussion.

My apologies to everyone else for letting this ... OT-ness go on thus far.

[Lightsabre]

Oh, geeze, here we go again. More of the same presumption and flawed logic ...

For the last time, may I remind you the following is what I did say


As for the rest ... I had absolutely no interest in your being "right" or "wrong" but simply in explaining my position to you. But I'll cease such an exercise in futility and let this thread stay on Resurrection Ship, Part 1 discussion.

My apologies to everyone else for letting this ... OT-ness go on thus far.

I'm over this Liebestraume. Every time I comment or respond to one of your posts, it becomes a long drawn out battle.
If you want to believe what you posted above, fine. I cannot find the energy to keep doing this with you.

[voigtstr]

Exactly. If it hadn’t been for Starbuck, no one else would have been insane enough to fly right into the heart of the ship and take all those pretty pictures. Cain was ready to toss both of them in the brig for insubordination, but backed off because Starbuck got her something she wanted. Course sure Cain’s got it out for Lee because he in an Adama…. Had to kind of feel sorry for Pegasus’s CAG getting a demotion just because he didn’t keep a close enough eye on Apollo.


I do have one nitpick though…. How did the blackbird show up on dradis when Kara jumped back to the fleet? I thought it was immune to that.

It was very close when it showed up on dradis.. that might have been a factor.
Where did it get FTL from? Did they take it from one of the heavy raiders they have access to? (one that crashed port flight deck) (one that Sharon flew back)

[voigtstr]

Thanks for ruining Buffy for me. I'm on the beginning of season 2.

You should then know that buffy died breifly in the last episode of season 1!
The Master drowned her.

[GALACTIC MYTH]

Originally Posted by LoneStar1836
Exactly. If it hadn’t been for Starbuck, no one else would have been insane enough to fly right into the heart of the ship and take all those pretty pictures. Cain was ready to toss both of them in the brig for insubordination, but backed off because Starbuck got her something she wanted. Course sure Cain’s got it out for Lee because he in an Adama…. Had to kind of feel sorry for Pegasus’s CAG getting a demotion just because he didn’t keep a close enough eye on Apollo.


I do have one nitpick though…. How did the blackbird show up on dradis when Kara jumped back to the fleet? I thought it was immune to that.

It was very close when it showed up on dradis.. that might have been a factor.
Where did it get FTL from? Did they take it from one of the heavy raiders they have access to? (one that crashed port flight deck) (one that Sharon flew back)

LoneStar 1836: I just wanted to say, Kara was able to get so close to the resurrection ship because she turned of all her electronics off and just used the stability pedals, just like she did when test flying it with Lee (saw her turn off her helmet light in both episodes 209 flight of the Pheonix and 211 resurrection ship part 1 we saw her it the electronics off).

voigtstr: I think they may have took it from the viper that was scrapt also from ep. 209 when CPO Galen Tyrol was why he decided to build the blackbird because Lee's ship was "beyond repair". Thats my guess.

[spg_1983]

Im not sure but wasnt it said early on that the Vipers didn't have FTL and they were wondering how the cylon Raiders managed to have FTL being so small?

[GALACTIC MYTH]

sorry wow brain dead their for a sec, I confused the vipers with the raiders for some reason. Im not sure how they got the FTL's (maybe they had spares lol).

[Mr. Seven]

I hope we get a nice space battle next episode. I think the next few episodes after this one are based on ships, so something tells me they really put their visual effects money into this battle.

[Speakfire]

I'd actually suspect they developed the Blackbirds FTL capabilities not from a Viper at all, but from a Raptor. As we don't know what all is involved in FTL drives (outside requiring Tylium as a fuel source) we have no idea on the size of a small FTL drive. I would suspect it has to do with some kind of mass/jump ratio. IE the bigger the ship, the bigger the FTL has to be. The Blackbird is a small ship that has room for 1 occupant, doesn't appear to have major weapons capability like the fast and nasty Vipers, so doesn't need a jump drive the size of the Raptor. In addition, regular maintenance on Raptors would mean that Tyrol and his deck gang understand the inner and outer workings of FTL drives, so putting one on the Blackbird is well within the realms of believability. The Blackbird has no armor to protect it in combat, and I suspect that what few weapons are on the ship are for a very quick hit and run attack and an even quicker escape, like the mission planned for taking out the Resurrection ship. Less room for weapons = more room for an FTL drive.

Remember that Vipers were made for close combat support. They need what little room they have on their ships for carrying as much ordinance and ammo as possible, not for FTL. In regards to the cylon raiders having jump capabilities, cylons obviously are far more technologically advanced, the ships are small (small ship, small ftl drive) and they don't seem to have a 'scout class' like the Raptors in their fleet. All of the Cylon raiders are scouts. Thus, all have FTL.