Pegasus (210)

[captainpash]

Though I think that Cain knows Adama personly.

[Sauce]

Gotta say I'm a bit disappointed. This story line deserved much more time to develop than one episode. More like Kobol's last Gleaming two episode finale. The ending felt forced, and the characters reactions at times seemed unrealistic. One of the things I really love about BSG is the way it develops the stories and more importantly it's characters. Watching this episode was like watching a readers digest version of BSG.

Don't get me wrong though, the premise was great, I just felt it wasn't nearly filled out enough. The tensions that would arise after bringing another Battle Star into the mix is almost endless. Particularly when the commanders are not on the same page (ei. Cylon torture, crew discipline, military oblectives etc.). The stories you could tell about integrating the Pegasus into the fleet should at least fill several eps.

BTW, why didn't they talk about finding Earth. Shouldn't Admiral Cain have been informed on it's discovery? Where was the talk about the Cylon virus infecting netwoked Colonial ships? It seems Pegasus is a more advanced Battle star than Galactica. It's also equipped with the newer Vipers. Why wouldn't it be affected, did the Galactica even mention it was possibly Vulnerable? How about the different Cylon Models?

As far as the finale, do you think Colonial soldiers would actually fire upon each other? (IMHO Adama did escalate the situation unneccesarily) It's not like there's many of them left. I could see both crews refusing to follow their commanders orders. I mean what's the Pegasus crew going to do? Go down on a hail of fire against the few human survivors of a holocaust? People ultimately want to survive. The Galactica and the rest of the fleet present the best possiblity of that future. It's also something the Pegasus crew obviously doesn't have....a future.

[FoolishPleasure]

Excellent episode. . as usual!

Adama has had to deal with an entire fleet of civilians, while Cain has been alone with her military ruffians. Naturally they are going to see things differently. Cain reminds me of Capt. Bligh (Mutiny on the Bounty). Such a good actress. . and I hate her guts! *LOL*

[powerofnaq]

ok, for an actual analysis of this episode:

This was easily one of the most intense episodes I've seen. Even without the spoilers I knew exactly what would happen when Cain took charge; someone was bound to get transferred and there's no way the past indescretions of Apollo & Co. were going to be ingnored. I know people are upset about what Cain did but try looking at the situation from her perspective.

Yeah, but as Adama said, its all about context. Context is important. Yeah, they shot down a civilian ship, but did it have them on? Or was it just a ship with nukes? Context matters.

Apollo is a mutineer, that can't be denied.

True, but he still did the right thing. I think even Cdr. Adama sees that now. Trying to overthrow the civilian part of the fleet, even if right, only serves to divide the fleet. Allowing the people a voice, to give them hope, serves the grand purpose: to continue the survival of the human race.

Starbuck is notoriously insubordinate, that can't be denied.

True, but again, many times she is right. And order can't be valid if is wrong. And this brings up my theory about what this show is about: free will vs. destiny. Humans vs Cylons, respectively. She CHOOSES to follow orders. Cylons follow them because they are supposed to.

And she is still one of the best pilots in the fleet.

Tyrol skated by the first trial by the skin of his teeth and in normal circumstances would've been tossed in the brig. Helo at least would've been stripped of his rank for fraternizing and protecting an enemy combatant.

Both true, but at the same time, they got off because of the human component. Adama and Laura were compassionate, they were human, something Cylons cannot be. Not yet.

Think about it...Adama has had Roslin and the rest of the fleet to keep him sane. Cain had nothing but her ship and her military training. They were all alone for this entire time, thinking the rest of humanity was simply destroyed. All they cared about was kicking some Cylon ass and when you have a ship full of military folk you're going to want to rely on that military training to get the job done.

I think this is a great point. I totally agree. All they had to go on was their military training. They took it too far. They became the Cylons in a respect. "Fight, fight, kill, destroy. Do not think, just do." They lost their humanity.

Yes, she seems like quite the ***** but she has good reason. What amazed me is the fact that Adama didn't play Roslin's card; if Cain requires Adama to recognize her as a superior due to the chain of command then she would be a hypocrite to not recognize the authority of the President. The situation may not have been resolved by calling in the big political guns but it may have kept it from turning into the bloodbath that I'm afraid we're going to see in January.

This bring back the human component. Cain wants absolute loyalty. Follow me. Like a robot, like a Cylon. Adama lets his humanity come into play when sending the Marines and the Vipers. That humanity is still alive because of Laura, because of the fleet, because of Boomer(a big point: Cdr Adama, the Chief, Helo all care about Cylons. They cared first. Because they are human, that's what they do. They don't always follow logic, they follow emotion. Free Boomer, and maybe now Six, understand that.)

Either way, amazing episode. Despite the lack of logic in not having Roslin stick her nose into the issue it still felt like this is exactly how these people would act if the situation were real. That's what I love so much about this show. With Stargate and most other scifi shows the way characters react to these amazing circumstances rarely feels real. To be honest the only time I really felt the realism in SG1 was in the season 1 finale and season 2 opener. But with this show...nearly every episode has at least half of its' scenes feeling more like being a voyer to a real life scenario rather than simply watching a tv show.

Great episode.....January? It's a damn good thing all the networks have started their shows now or I'd be annoyed not having any good tv to look forward to (how sad is that??).

I totally agree. Best show on TV right now. Its up there with B5 as my favorites.

[Sauce]

Quote:
i cant belelive she let the crew rape her... its one thing to kill a cylon for being a cylon... its another thing to let the entire crew rape her again and agiain... and everytime i saw Cain... i wish i could walk right into the room, and unload a clip into her head

As brutal as it seems, how would you react after billions of your countrymen were obliterated in cold blood? I can't say I agree with that behavior, but then again I haven't seen my world blown up in a mushroom cloud.

Quote:
Think about it...Adama has had Roslin and the rest of the fleet to keep him sane. Cain had nothing but her ship and her military training. They were all alone for this entire time, thinking the rest of humanity was simply destroyed. All they cared about was kicking some Cylon ass and when you have a ship full of military folk you're going to want to rely on that military training to get the job done.


True, as far as the Pegasus was concerned THEY were the only survivors left.

[keshou]

FANTASTIC, if disturbing, episode. I too nearly cried when "to be continued" flashed on my screen.

You knew Admiral Cain was going to be trouble the minute her crew practically goose-stepped off the shuttle.

And yet she had some valid points. Even with the "context" of the events - there were a lot of screwups on the Galactica. Not the most disciplined crew around. But they got the job done under extraordinary circumstances. So did Admiral Cain - but she also happened to be sadistic in her methods. Not just a "by the book" commander.

I hated the way the Pegasus crew treated the Galactica crew. As if they were totally second-class. The only one who seemed sympathetic was the guy who wanted to look at the Blackbird. They seemed to totally reflect Cain's philosophy.

Of course the most disturbing parts involved Pegasus Six and Sharon. Ron Moore said he would make us question our views on the Cylons and he sure is pushing the right buttons for that.

Baltar's scenes with Pegasus Six were fascinating. First to hear him admit his love for HIS Six. Then to see his face as he looked at Pegasus Six. I remember the "Six" who tried to beat Starbuck to a pulp on Caprica. Not a sympathetic creature. And yet Ron Moore knows that allowing the sadistic torture and rape of a prisoner pushes all the boundaries that humans have tried to set up to preserve our "humanity".

I found Kara's interrogation of Leoben to be questionable but not over the line. I found Roslin's "airlock that trash" attitude towards Leoben (and later Sharon) to be surprising but sort of understandable. And yet systematic torture and rape crosses the line.

I can't imagine how they're going to resolve this one in part two- although I suspect Admiral Cain won't be alive at the end. What will happen to Helo and Tyrol?

And what of the special ship that the basestars are guarding? What's up with that?

Egads - it's going to be a long wait until January.

[FeloniousMonk]

Tyrol and Helo were awesome.

I hate to admit it but when I saw them bursting into the brig I actually smiled and said out loud "Good boys."

Theoretically, yes. In reality, the commander in chief is the one with nastiest guns . Even if Roslin attempted to take control over the military, it's doubtful that Cain would willingly relinquish command, and there'd be nothing Roslin could do about it.

No, in reality it works as well. Lemme give you a little lesson on the strength of the American Carrier Battle Group.

A US aircraft carrier has the power of a small air force and a single carrier can theoretically launch an attack on over 90% of the land mass on earth. Protected by a pair of guided missle cruisers, multiple destoyers, frigates, supply ships, and no doubt at least a pair of hunter/killer submarines (and quite possibly a boomer, but we'd never know it), an aircraft carrier is probably the most strongly defended piece of sovereign American land there is. The Admiral of such a battle group is able to strike nearly any place on the planet with a multitude of weapons, some of them massively destructive. The Admiral of a battle group has the ability, if not direct authority, to launch an array of nuclear weapons that can reach any point on this planet.


What keeps a power hungry Admiral from going nuts and thinking he can control the whole world? Well, the fact that there eleven other battle groups probably has something to do with it....but the main reason is the chain of command. A CVBG Admiral can't use his destructive force without authorization from a higher power, namely the President of the United States (and of course, Congress and the joint chiefs). If a crazy Admiral decided to go crazy and bomb Paris (because that would be so much damn fun....seriously ) he wouldn't be able to because a single order from a higher Admiral sitting behind a desk in the Pentagon would override it. Even if that higher brass didn't have a single weapon at his disposal an attack still wouldn't happen because the crews of those ships would realize that the chain of command was ordering them to disobey the crazy orders of a kooky Admiral.

Why did I quote that and make it so small? Because I've been drinking and if it's boring to read as it was fun to type than I highly doubt you want to bother reading a word of it.

My point is that bigger guns don't mean a thing if you can't actually pull the trigger on them. Even in the situation the Pegasus is facing I doubt they'd all be willing to simply write off the rest of humanity by disobeying a direct order from the President of the Colonies....even if she is just a schoolteacher.

[FeloniousMonk]

Yeah, but as Adama said, its all about context. Context is important. Yeah, they shot down a civilian ship, but did it have them on? Or was it just a ship with nukes? Context matters.


True, but he still did the right thing. I think even Cdr. Adama sees that now. Trying to overthrow the civilian part of the fleet, even if right, only serves to divide the fleet. Allowing the people a voice, to give them hope, serves the grand purpose: to continue the survival of the human race.


True, but again, many times she is right. And order can't be valid if is wrong. And this brings up my theory about what this show is about: free will vs. destiny. Humans vs Cylons, respectively. She CHOOSES to follow orders. Cylons follow them because they are supposed to.

And she is still one of the best pilots in the fleet.


Both true, but at the same time, they got off because of the human component. Adama and Laura were compassionate, they were human, something Cylons cannot be. Not yet.


I think this is a great point. I totally agree. All they had to go on was their military training. They took it too far. They became the Cylons in a respect. "Fight, fight, kill, destroy. Do not think, just do." They lost their humanity.


This bring back the human component. Cain wants absolute loyalty. Follow me. Like a robot, like a Cylon. Adama lets his humanity come into play when sending the Marines and the Vipers. That humanity is still alive because of Laura, because of the fleet, because of Boomer(a big point: Cdr Adama, the Chief, Helo all care about Cylons. They cared first. Because they are human, that's what they do. They don't always follow logic, they follow emotion. Free Boomer, and maybe now Six, understand that.)



I totally agree. Best show on TV right now. Its up there with B5 as my favorites.

Don't get me wrong, I understand and agree with all your points...but the mind of someone in the military during times of war is often quite different than the mind of a civilian. When in extremely stressful and life threatening situations, sometimes removing all shadows of your humanity and relying solely on your training is the one and only thing that gets you through a mission alive.

I'm not saying what Cain did was right, just saying that it wasn't wrong. Also, like Adama said, if Starbuck is going to wear the uniform then she should obey the rules. I don't care how good of a pilot she is, she can't "choose" to disobey orders she doesn't like. That's not how the military works and it's not how it should ever work.


If it did, we'd lose every conflict.

[powerofnaq]

Gotta say I'm a bit disappointed. This story line deserved much more time to develop than one episode. More like Kobol's last Gleaming two episode finale. The ending felt forced, and the characters reactions at times seemed unrealistic. One of the things I really love about BSG is the way it develops the stories and more importantly it's characters. Watching this episode was like watching a readers digest version of BSG.

Don't get me wrong though, the premise was great, I just felt it wasn't nearly filled out enough. The tensions that would arise after bringing another Battle Star into the mix is almost endless. Particularly when the commanders are not on the same page (ei. Cylon torture, crew discipline, military oblectives etc.). The stories you could tell about integrating the Pegasus into the fleet should at least fill several eps.

Well, this is only part one of a two part episode. I expect the Cylons to jump in sometime in the next episode. I think looking at this as a single, on-its-own-ep is a mistake. Its a two parter stupidly separated by four months. Well, as much as BSG can be said to have two parters, i feel as if its like 24, one big timeline just broken up into episodes for TV purposes.

BTW, why didn't they talk about finding Earth. Shouldn't Admiral Cain have been informed on it's discovery? Where was the talk about the Cylon virus infecting netwoked Colonial ships? It seems Pegasus is a more advanced Battle star than Galactica. It's also equipped with the newer Vipers. Why wouldn't it be affected, did the Galactica even mention it was possibly Vulnerable? How about the different Cylon Models?

I'm guessing this will be dealt with in the second part.

As far as the finale, do you think Colonial soldiers would actually fire upon each other? (IMHO Adama did escalate the situation unneccesarily) It's not like there's many of them left. I could see both crews refusing to follow their commanders orders. I mean what's the Pegasus crew going to do? Go down on a hail of fire against the few human survivors of a holocaust? People ultimately want to survive. The Galactica and the rest of the fleet present the best possiblity of that future. It's also something the Pegasus crew obviously doesn't have.

I was cheering when Adama send out the Marines and the Vipers. Cain is lost in her military training, she's lost her humanity. What's the point of fighting the Cylons when you become them? Adama did the right thing. He stuck up for humanity. I expect the civilian ships in part two to block the Galactica from attack.

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by FeloniousMonk
ok, for an actual analysis of this episode:

This was easily one of the most intense episodes I've seen. Even without the spoilers I knew exactly what would happen when Cain took charge; someone was bound to get transferred and there's no way the past indescretions of Apollo & Co. were going to be ingnored. I know people are upset about what Cain did but try looking at the situation from her perspective.

I agree, in splitting up the crews your splitting up the loyalties. Leaving the crews alone could eventually lead to a situation like ancient Rome, where the legions were more loyal to their commanders than the Roman Republic. Or in a contemporary example, Somalia or Afghanistan. Countries ruled by warlords.

[ronsmytheiii]

A US aircraft carrier has the power of a small air force and a single carrier can theoretically launch an attack on over 90% of the land mass on earth. Protected by a pair of guided missle cruisers, multiple destoyers, frigates, supply ships, and no doubt at least a pair of hunter/killer submarines (and quite possibly a boomer, but we'd never know it), an aircraft carrier is probably the most strongly defended piece of sovereign American land there is. The Admiral of such a battle group is able to strike nearly any place on the planet with a multitude of weapons, some of them massively destructive. The Admiral of a battle group has the ability, if not direct authority, to launch an array of nuclear weapons that can reach any point on this planet.


What keeps a power hungry Admiral from going nuts and thinking he can control the whole world? Well, the fact that there eleven other battle groups probably has something to do with it....but the main reason is the chain of command. A CVBG Admiral can't use his destructive force without authorization from a higher power, namely the President of the United States (and of course, Congress and the joint chiefs). If a crazy Admiral decided to go crazy and bomb Paris (because that would be so much damn fun....seriously ) he wouldn't be able to because a single order from a higher Admiral sitting behind a desk in the Pentagon would override it. Even if that higher brass didn't have a single weapon at his disposal an attack still wouldn't happen because the crews of those ships would realize that the chain of command was ordering them to disobey the crazy orders of a kooky Admiral.

WTF, where did you get this?

Oh, and I live near a base that houses 5 carrier battle groups, but the flag ship is a modified cargo ship for command and Control.

Whats the new Cylon ship? Cylon ultra longrange Wifi?

[zats]

My point is that bigger guns don't mean a thing if you can't actually pull the trigger on them. Even in the situation the Pegasus is facing I doubt they'd all be willing to simply write off the rest of humanity by disobeying a direct order from the President of the Colonies....even if she is just a schoolteacher.

I stand corrected and bow [well, nod] to your superior intellect.

Well...no, actually, I don't:

There are currently three people in the fleet with Power at Their Disposal: Cain, Adama, and Roz. Cain, at the moment, has the biggest, fastest, and most lethal ship. Adama has a loyal battlestar but has been severely crippled by the [temporary] loss of Apollo and Starbuck, not to mention however many of Cain's men are running around on Galactica. Roz has Adama [see previous] and the Quorum, who have already amply proved that they can't do didly squat other than press conferances.

My point being that in this situation there is no override because these people have three very different power bases and yet all want/need to be in command.

And Roz is NOT just a schoolteacher!



[Sorry if this winds up sounding overly indignant; it's not intended.]

P.S. Cool stuff on the carrier group, thanks!

[FeloniousMonk]

WTF, where did you get this?

Oh, and I live near a base that houses 5 carrier battle groups, but the flag ship is a modified cargo ship for command and Control.

Whats the new Cylon ship? Cylon ultra longrange Wifi?

Get what?

Technically the flag ship is wherever the highest ranked flag officer is on board...though it's usually the carrier's CDC. Where do you live?

I'm thinking it's a decoy like Adama said. A very tempting target...the Cylons may have just filled a ship with explosives, waiting for Galactica to send in fighters to take it down then detonate the thing and destory the CAP.

[spg_1983]

As brutal as it seems, how would you react after billions of your countrymen were obliterated in cold blood? I can't say I agree with that behavior, but then again I haven't seen my world blown up in a mushroom cloud.

it doesnt matter what they did, you dont go there. by stooping to that level they justified everything the cylons have said about us and made them right. you want to kill her, fine she is an enemy and wiped out the rest of the human race. you want to torture her for information, smack her around, very distasteful, but under the circumstances neccasary. but when you start condoning rape of a prisoner, and opening it up for the crew to do for fun, then you have become a monster. Every crew member that took part in it should be put out an airlock, and Cain should be as well for condoning it.

[zats]

I'm thinking it's a decoy like Adama said. A very tempting target...the Cylons may have just filled a ship with explosives, waiting for Galactica to send in fighters to take it down then detonate the thing and destory the CAP.

Wow, that'd be...not fun.

And I think they meant the info on the carrier group.