Resistance (204)

[Qasim]

Glad to see the old man wake up

[LoneStar1836]

I believe that we should follow our conscience moreso than rules. How many Nazis excused themselves crimes because they were just following orders. If Tigh ordered you to murder Roslin, because she's a political opposition, would you do it? What if you were forced to strave her and witness her waste away? Will you follow your conscience or orders?

How are those examples relevant to BSG? I have yet to see the military of BSG even hint at considering such acts.

Adama is not spacing all the citizens in the fleet who have their ethnicity connected to say the colony of Geminon. Tigh has never considered murdering Roslin. He may wish he could since she helped to instigate the situation that is happening now, but he would never order such things that you are using as hypothetical examples. So I fail to see the relevance of those examples.

Of course any sane person would object to such acts.

I disagree. She did not manipulate, she presented the situation as it appeared to her to Starbuck. This manipulation tale comes from Cdr. Adama and is simply not true. I would welcome you to quote verbally where she supposed have "manipulated" her.

In my opinion, Roslin did manipulate Starbuck. She used Starbuck’s loyalty to Adama against her. Kara had complete faith in Adama, and when she learned that Adama had betrayed that trust, she lashed out by agreeing to do what Roslin suggested. I consider that manipulation of Starbuck’s feelings.

And also here you forgot the "dream" is triggered by the decision of Cdr. Adama himself. Putting Roslin in brig for a course of events that has been triggered by himself is a sign of extremely weak personality.

I fail to see how that is a sign of Adama having a weak personality. How did he know going to what may or may not be Kobol was going to trigger some possible drug induced vision by Roslin. Does Adama even know she has visions? I don’t think so. They initially discovered Kobol because they were looking for supplies. Then Adama suggested that they consider permanent settlement there. Not quite sure I agreed with him there but I guess you have to start somewhere and can’t run forever.

Here was their later conversation:

Roslin: So, according to the scriptures, if we had the Arrow of Apollo we could take it down to Kobol and we could use it to open the tomb of Athena and find our way to Earth.
Adama: I didn't know you were that religious.
Roslin: Neither did I. Something wrong with that?
Adama: No. It's just new. There is no Earth, you understand that.
Roslin: It would seem that we were wrong. Commander, just because you and I don't know where it is doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Adama: Madam President, I'm not trying to mock your faith, so please understand me. These stories about Kobol, gods, the Arrow of Apollo... they're just stories, legends, myths. Don't let it blind you to the reality that we face.
Roslin: Reality is that the cylon raider has been successfully jump-tested. Reality is that cylon technology obviously outstrips our own, and reality is, there is a good chance the raider can jump all the way back to Caprica and retrieve that arrow and find our way to Earth, the real Earth.
Adama: The raider's a military asset. I'm not gonna use it to go chasing some mythical arrow. I'm sorry.

Later……..

Billy: If you do this, it could threaten everything that we've accomplished. It will probably bring down the government and you don't have a right to risk that for a...
Roslin: Go on.
Billy: For a drug-induced vision of prophecy.
Roslin: I am well aware of that. But it would seem that the gods have a different plan. Would you please get me Lt. Thrace?

Starbuck: You can't be serious.
Roslin: All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again. The cylon you interrogated, he quoted that bit of scripture. He also said that we would find Kobol and Kobol would show us the way, did he not?
Starbuck: Yes, he did.
Roslin: Well, we have found Kobol. Do you believe in the gods, Lieutenant?
Starbuck: Not that it's any of your business, but, yes, I believe.
Roslin: Lieutenant, I'm not trying to put you on the defensive, I just-- I would like you to think this through with me. If you believe in the gods, then you believe in the cycle of time, that we are all playing our parts in a story that is told again, and again, and again, throughout eternity.
Starbuck: That's the way I was raised. But that doesn't mean that my part in the story is to go off on some crazy-ass mission against orders.
Roslin: May I tell you the part of the story that it would seem, I am playing? I am dying.
Starbuck: What?
Roslin: I have terminal breast cancer. I have six months at the outside to live and I've only told three people so I would appreciate it if you kept it to yourself.
Starbuck: Of course. Are you saying that you're--
Roslin: The scriptures tell us that a dying leader led humanity to the promised land. If you go back to Caprica and bring me the arrow, I will show us the way.
Starbuck: This is crazy.
Roslin: You keep using that word. It is crazy, perhaps. But it doesn't mean it isn't true. And it may be our only chance, our only chance to find Earth.
Starbuck: The old man is our last chance to find Earth. He knows where it is, he said so, you were there. The location is a secret but he is going to take us there.
Roslin: Commander Adama has no idea where Earth is. He never did, he made it up in order to give people hope.
Starbuck: You're lying.
Roslin: Go ask him.
Starbuck: I will.

I still see Roslin as the instigator because she insisted on using the Raider to retrieve the arrow (which may or may not actually do what Roslin hopes it will do). After Adama refused to do that, she went behind his back and turned Starbuck against him. I’d be pissed as well and want to throw her in the brig because she overstepped her jurisdiction and had essentially betrayed him. Adama was impulsive when he sent a contingent of troops to take her into custody, but she had just endangered the fleet, so he wasn’t think with a calm head on his shoulder, but I think they might have worked it out latter if Boomer hadn’t shot him, BUT……………….then we wouldn’t get all this intriguing and intellectual goodness that resulted.

I think the most important thing I would like comment on this is: The military in BSG is not the US armed forces. And BSG with Cdr. Adama is not BSG with Col. Tigh. Just to make it clear: My comments are in the context the entities are not to be mixed up.

Check. Check. And check. I agree and never suggested otherwise so we are clear in that regards.

And even our world is not just the U.S. I think if you are familiar with some of the totalitarian coutries in our world, you will think differently about the military in the sense how it is sometimes (ab)used by the persons in power as always that "nice". History does not always play out as it was in North America.

This is the reason why people have democracy.

Oh, I’m very much aware of what military dictatorships can lead to. We just overthrew one in Iraq. So I’m all for democracy. And there is one that is alive and well in North Korea, Pakistan, and other countries. I may not be as well versed in world history as I’d like to be, but I did minor in history in college and have an armature interest in history in general so I’m well aware that not all militaries have the best interest of the people that they are supposed to be protecting in mind.

But the military of BSG has yet to demonstrate that they are willing to round up dissenters and start executing them so I’m still optimistic that eventually, democracy will return to the fleet. Just not tomorrow. But before the mid season break, I predict democracy will have returned to the fleet, because I believe that Adama is as much of a supporter of democracy.

The most questionable decision was to dissolve the Quorum. By all means: this is the legitimately elected government, and neither Tigh or Adama has any right to dissolve them.

I agree that was the most “questionable” decision, but did that put the actual fleet in physical danger. Imo, no.

Please explain what you mean. Roslin has virtually the support of all of the Quorum members. The support among the actual citizens will be hardly different. Do you mean by "dismantle" to install a puppet civilian government?

Sorry. I wasn’t very clear there. What I meant was that I think Adama would have reinstate the Quorum’s authority (i.e. civilian gov) if Lee and Roslin wouldn’t have bolted. Roslin would still be confined to the brig, but with Baltar being the elected VP, he would serve as interim president. Lee would still have his objections to her being confined and not in power like he thinks she should be, but at least a civilian government elected by the people would be back in place. Besides Roslin was never technically elected anyway, and with this new revelation of hers, how do we know that the majority of people will continue to support her. To solve that go ahead and hold new elections for president. Let the people decide whether they wanted her back or not. That would be the fairest thing to do. Then if she was elected, then Adama should have to support the people’s decision.

You know, look in the history. There are many cases things went this way. The world is not the U.S.

And BSG is not necessarily the world.

Now I hope neither of you don’t think I’m trying to be aggressive towards y’all in defending my view points. I’m just disagreeing in, I hope, the politest manner possible. It is a TV show after all, so everybody is entitled to their own interpretations. Especially with this show were nothing is cut and dry and open to all kinds of interpretations and opinions which is what makes it so great.

Also, did anybody see if they took the Arrow from the hummer before it got shot to pieces? I saw them both grab a lot of guns, but no humanity saving arrows.

Starbuck did have the arrow in her hand when they got to that high school. To me it looked like they drove her Hummer back cause the windshield was shot out. What I found amazing was at how the Hummer survived all that gunfire - the engine block, the tires. Starbuck must have some of those run-flat tires (as well as armor plating since someone forgot to draw in the pretty bulletholes) that our military Hummers have unless that Pyramid team is really that bad a shot.

[Easter Lily]

Let me try to defend some of my sentences:
The thing about Cdr. Adama/Col. Tigh that annoys me most is that they did not get the concept that people make concious decisions. To fly back to Caprica is a concious decision by Starbuck - and I agree with minh here.

If you take this point of view, the complete opposite is Cdr. Adama, who made the decision to make finding Earth as the "purpose" of the fleet, yet he does not stand behind it, especially all the consequences.

Yes... he lied to them... but as he said... to give them hope... Roslin knew that he had lied... She agreed to keep his secret for the greater good. Why didn't she say anything beforehand? Why did she wait until now, when she wanted something out of Starbuck to bring it up?
Oh, I know Starbuck made a conscious decision to do so but only after having her buttons pushed by Roslin. Let's not kid ourselves... Roslin wasn't just giving Starbuck "the facts". If her conversation with Starbuck doesn't smack of manipulation I don't know what does. What she did here was also asking Starbuck to bypass the chain of command which is another serious breach of protocol.
Every organization has rules and regulations and functions because of those laws. If every single person starts acting according to what they see is right... the military or any civlian authority is redundant... and society will descend into chaos. As we have seen in KGL... Roslin's actions certainly triggered off a whole chain of events.

I disagree. She did not manipulate, she presented the situation as it appeared to her to Starbuck. This manipulation tale comes from Cdr. Adama and is simply not true. I would welcome you to quote verbally where she supposed have "manipulated" her.

I mentioned that even Billy saw that how detrimental this action that she took could be. If you look at the deleted scenes for KLG 1 or 2, you will see that even Lee told her to talk to Adama again and try to persuade his father to change his mind. It is likely that she tried to get him to cross his father earlier but wasn't successful so she tried it on Starbuck.
In the mini-series, Roslin promised Adama that she would keep his "little secret" in exchange for co-operation between the military and civilian authority. She reneged on that because after taking drugs she now believes that she is the saviour of humanity.
According to the Meriam-Webster online dictionary, to manipulate is to "to manage or utilize skillfully b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage; to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose." Roslin asked Starbuck if she was religious... and she then she used Starbuck's religious leanings and broke a promise she made to Adama to convince her to make that jump. I think Roslin is dangerous because on this occasion she was so focused on achieving a particular end to the exclusion of all else. She ignored possible consequences of her action.
Now I may agree that Adama probably went over board in ordering the presidential coup but from his perspective, can you see why he would have difficulty believing Roslin's claims? He's a practical man... the woman wants to jeopardize a rescue attempt by looking for some arrow in a museum in Caprica. If someone today went around making claims that they were the salvation of the human race, most people would righly think that a) they're making a power grab or b) they're two fries short of a Happy meal.
Why should anyone believe what Roslin is saying is true especially if she's reluctant to show all her cards?

I am person with strong "religious" convictions myself so I'm not knocking people who do.(Which is partially the reason why I don't find Roslin's conversion all that convincing) But if something is prophetic, I believe it will come to pass... whether or not the people themselves know it or bring it about. Biblical history has shown that when human beings interfere, chaos results and has far-reaching consequences that can affect future generations of people.

[Easter Lily]

I feel Apollo's acting on his principles. Even in the miniseries he seemed to believe very strongly in having a civilian government to provide a balance to the military - even in a fleet that's on the run. But I don't think he would be backing Roslin and helping her escape if he hadn't been pushed in that direction by Tigh's actions. I DO think Lonestar made a good point up the thread that perhaps ousting Tigh would have been a better choice - he certainly isn't popular. But maybe Apollo didn't feel he had enough support to perform a military coup. Whereas a few conspirators could cause Roslin's escape easily enough.

Oh, I think so too... he's acted very consistently with the person that we've come to know... In fact, I think he is probably the most principled person in the whole show. I was disappointed with his taking off with Roslin because he was infringing his parole (violating the principle of keeping one's word) but I'm certain that he thought that he did it for the greater good.
What fascinates me is that he doesn't blame either Adama or Roslin for what happens... He quietly accepts the consequences of their actions and of his own...
The man's a throwback... honestly... I'm getting Hornblower vibes every time I see him in action...

I've also wondered if Apollo decided to take off with Roslin because he can't face his father.

I don't think so... He's committed mutiny once already...
But I just think that he's so convinced of the rightness of his actions that he doesn't need to explain himself to anyone.

[Thermonuclearboy]

Glad to see the old man wake up

I'm not. From what I saw in that last Adama-Tigh exchange, and from what I saw in the promo for next week's episode, it doesn't look good. Adama has a tendency to overlook the faults of the people he's closest to, and it looks as though he's gone right back into Enabler Mode with Tigh. Tigh screwed things up royally, but now Adama's going to make everything all right and Tigh will suffer no conseqeunces for his actions.

And whose side is Gaeta on? I get the impression he's trying not to actively take sides, only do what he thinks is right, so more power to him, but I worry for him. He's one of the few competent officers in the fleet. It's a miracle he hasn't been shot yet.

[Easter Lily]

I'm not. From what I saw in that last Adama-Tigh exchange, and from what I saw in the promo for next week's episode, it doesn't look good. Adama has a tendency to overlook the faults of the people he's closest to, and it looks as though he's gone right back into Enabler Mode with Tigh. Tigh screwed things up royally, but now Adama's going to make everything all right and Tigh will suffer no conseqeunces for his actions.

And whose side is Gaeta on? I get the impression he's trying not to actively take sides, only do what he thinks is right, so more power to him, but I worry for him. He's one of the few competent officers in the fleet. It's a miracle he hasn't been shot yet.

Promos are in my opinion just that... promos... A way to lure people into the trap and get them to bite... it's seldom reflective of what actually happens in the actual episode. I don't know how many times I've seen the Lost teasers for the next week thinking one thing and then finding that the scenes shown are taken rather out of context. I've been involved in a similar discussion on an Atlantis thread so I'm not going to go into it here, suffice to say that I will reserve my judgement about the episode until I watch it in its entirety and comment on it accordingly.

As for your comment about Adama, I beg to differ... I don't think Adama necessarily "has a tendency to overlook" the faults of his people at all. He might not always throw the full force of the law at the offenders (and we could argue over the wisdom of that) but he knows very well what their flaws are. The man sees the bigger picture... As far as they know, they are the last of the human race as they know it... People are dying every day... They need every available personnel they can get. They don't have the luxury of throwing everyone in prison when their skills are badly needed. Perhaps you think Chief Tyrol got off scot-free, I don't think so... I think the guilt of what happened in Litmus is a far worse punishment for him than the brig. Adama knows that... and in that way he has killed two birds with a stone.
Tigh is not a leader... he didn't want to be... he was thrown into the lion's den... But when it comes to military matters, he certainly has the experience. He's terrible as far as diplomacy is concerned but he only took command because circumstances dictated as such. Adama is aware of the drinking problem but when Tigh sticks to the military side of things... he does okay.

[Thermonuclearboy]

Tigh is not a leader... he didn't want to be... he was thrown into the lion's den... But when it comes to military matters, he certainly has the experience. He's terrible as far as diplomacy is concerned but he only took command because circumstances dictated as such. Adama is aware of the drinking problem but when Tigh sticks to the military side of things... he does okay.

All the more reason he shouldn't be Adama's second-in-command. He's simply not equipped to deal with leadership of the fleet should Adama be incapacitated. Granted, this is an unprecedented situation humanity finds itself in - no one was expecting the complete and utter annihiliation of civilization itself - and competence has to take a back seat to availability (ie, these aren't the best candidates to lead us, but they're all we got). But that also means there's no place for sentiment. Tigh may have invaluable military experience, but he's proven himself unfit to command. Besides his drinking problem, he has a disdain for civilians he doesn't bother to hide. He has no place being in a position where he could potentially end up leading the fleet. Yet there he is, by Adama's side, because Adama loves him and feels sorry for him, and will continue to make excuses for his behavior.

[LoneStar1836]

While rewatching this episode Monday night, caught something I didn’t before. When Starbuck and Helo were in the standoff with Anders, she makes the comment that why didn’t they stop shooting when they saw that she and Helo were wearing Colonial military uniforms. Anders says because they had encountered other Cylons in uniform. So……was he talking about the Boomer model or could it be other models? If I were Starbuck, the first thing I’d want to him to do was describe what these other supposed Cylons in uniform looked like. Not play some pick-up game of shippy Pyramid. Yeah, I know the writers are saving those revelations for later, but still………

[Magniopi]

Anders says because they had encountered other Cylons in uniform. So……was he talking about the Boomer model or could it be other models?

Given how willing they were to "shoot first, ask questions later" with Starbuck and Helo, Anders and friends may very well have mistakenly killed human military survivors, too.

Of course, it's much better foreshadowing for the show if they did kill Cylons, but you never know.

[LoneStar1836]

Given how willing they were to "shoot first, ask questions later" with Starbuck and Helo, Anders and friends may very well have mistakenly killed human military survivors, too.

Very true, and I count that as a possibility, but I’m going for the foreshadowing angle.

They have obviously somehow come into close contact with a human Cylon, as evident by Anders quoting the words of Leoben, which might suggest the possibility that they captured one. Maybe more than one. Maybe one wearing a military uniform. How? I have no idea (unless it allowed itself to be captured) since they obviously aren’t a crack military squad or that good a shot.

[plot mechanic]

BSG has reached social pathology status for me. The plotting is contrived. The characterizations are black and white, with some GOOD and others BAD. They are also inconsistent. The holocaust of humanity premise that supposedly makes the show realistically gritty is violated in the grossest way, with more civilians shown on Caprica than in the fleet! what do you people like about the show?

I'm going to skip commentary on current events. I'm afraid that for a start I don't see any possibility of BSG honestly confronting them. Explanation of how this episode is really bad follows. It is necessarily extraordinarily long.

pm

So, looking at the tape from last night, being plot mechanic, the first thing I notice is some plotting problems. The most glaring, yet most trivial, is the woman soldier in full combat gear blithely trotting down a corridor that is supposed to be undergoing low pressure testing! She gonna shoot the leaks?

The notion that there would be too much traffic to and from "Cloud Nine" (That name! Can we get any campier?) to track also stands out. Hope the Cylons never try overwhelming fleet defenses by firing bunches of missiles at them!

Logically, the freeing of the President is a climactic point of the revolution, not the beginning! Actually, Roslin's surrender in the season finale would in the real world pretty much finish her politically, as someone who didn't do her duty in defending democracy. Or as a loser who wasn't brave enough to stick up for herself. I suppose this absurdity was impelled by the conviction that a real woman doesn't resort to violence, or that democracy is not worth defending or that you can't have an actual confrontation between Adama and Roslin which reflects badly on Adama. Take your pick.

Talking about food and fuel being resupplied from the fleet is always a bad idea for BSG. These people should be starving, in ships out of fuel. Period. The guff about tyllium refining is ridiculous. The idea that there will be food freighters is just insane. There's no way that it could be cheaper to ship food from another planet. If there were Star Trek style replicators, you would expect the ships to carry on normally. But pretending in one episode that you've confronted the shortages issue for one of the few commodities you can recycle and/or find in abundance (namely, water,) then to blandly pretend in another you just have this stuff? The cheek is astounding.

The discovery of the survivors on Caprica is a gigantic hole in the holocaust of humanity premise of the series. Survivors because they were in "the" mountains. If mountains were all it took to survive those nuclear explosions in the mini, a planet full of mountains means lots of survivors.

The recent Stargate: Atlantis episode where higher solar radiation produces that urine colored glare made sense. There's no sane reason to think radioactive fallout does the same. So, to me, that glare says "stupidity," not radiation.

Incidentally, there are no radiation meds that can prevent or heal damage from ambient radiation. Not even in the BSG universe. Because, you remember, radiation damage causes cancer, among other things. But: It is well established that the BSG universe, despite FTL and artifical gravity, cannot prevent or cure cancer. I suppose this means that the Caprica "survivors" are actually characters in a Cylon virtual reality training scenario!

Starbuck was convinced of a guy's humanity...by the details of a televised game! In the torture apologia she was tormented by the Cylon's apparent knowledge of intimate details about her life. Am I the only one to notice the discrepancy? I bet this is supposed to be "meeting cute" with her new love interest.

Earlier in the series, Adama sent marines to help keep order on the ships. This is even a reason for a shortage of marines. So, why is it suddenly necessary to send out a bunch more? Skip over the fact that the refusal to actually show any civilians (no, President and Presidential secretary don't qualify) is yet another way of escaping the supposed holocaust of humanity premise. There is no reason for them to open the doors to let the marines on board!

This is particularly crude writing since the marines that were already supposed to be on board would naturally be expected to enforce orders for delivery of the mythical supplies! I don't think it's really possible to deny that this rigmarole is designed to put the blame for the massacre on Tigh. The thing is that both this and the martial law declaration are inevitable outcomes of Adama's actions. First writing out Adama with a shooting, then writing this clumsy sequence of events however, the producers make it seem that it is Tigh's fault things went wrong. This is just a dramatic copout from the consequences of the Adama/Roslin confrontation.

I think that's because, basically, Adama started all this because his beloved Starbuck was seduced away from him. This reflects badly on the character, so the sensational climax of season one has to be undone. Season two gets off to a slow start while it backs up, but there you are.

By the way, you really can't say that Adama was just disturbed because Roslin subverted discipline for a wild goose chase. In the context of a society that knows it was colonized from another planet, scriptures about another colony are history, not prophecy. Individual interpretations need not apply. Roslin did not claim the arrow was a mystic necessity. My guess is that it is probably a literal, physical key and/or pointer!

Adama can't know there is no Earth. Adama can't know that there is no information in the tomb of Athena. Adama can't know that the arrow has no simple practical function in getting that information. Adama didn't say, "Let's try making a copy of the arrow." He didn't say, "That museum and arrow are radioactive dust." He didn't go to the quorum and say, "The President's gone wacky. Swear in Baltar."

The whole mess is Adama's fault. It was Adama who started the whole Earth thing. Further, Adama does not actually have any plan at all. This is particularly unfortunate since if there is no Earth, the fleet does not have the materials to successfully start a new colony. Barring an authorial miracle, these people are doomed. Personally, I prefer my tragedies to be somewhat shorter. It gives them more punch.

As usual, plot contortions are accompanied by bungled characterizations. The Doctor's assistance to the President is particularly thickwitted. If there is anyone who have doubts about Roslin's mental condition, it's Cottle. If there's anyone who should be asked to certify Roslin, it's Cottle. Yet, Cottle's action is somehow not to be taken as establishing Roslin's mental competence. In spite of the fact that we viewers have seen that she genuinely does have prophetic dreams! Is it possible for writing to get any more confused?

Dualla's sudden discovery of Apollo ass is not quite so out of character. If you remember her few scenes, she is actually a very erratic character, to put it generously. So, yeah, she can lust Billy in one episode, and lust after Apollo in another, yet act cold and mean in others. Personally, I don't find it convincing or appealing.

Billy's turn against the president when he refuses to go with her to divide the fleet was foreshadowed. The problem is that he says this after he has already done everything she needed! This is like a bank robber saying to his confederates that he's not taking any of the money because he doesn't believe in stealing! Apparently the writers just wanted a voice in favor of passive resistance to the theft of democracy (very convenient to the thieves, no?) and foisted it on Billy. If you take this scene seriously, we now know poor Billy is a pinhead. No wonder Apollo is looking good to Dualla!

Maybe it's just me, but Tigh's disintegration wasn't quite convincing either. I mean, a big part of the mini was how he rose to the occasion under stress. Now it's the opposite. There is a difference now, which is Ellen. This character is not inconsistent: We never knew what she wanted! But she is BAD. BSG's penchant for black and white characterization is in full flower here. It produces a camp classic possibly on par with the likes of Alexis Carrington! You certainly can't accuse her of dullness. Nor believability. I think that she videotaped the threesome between her, Saul and Bill, so she's invulnerable!

I suppose one of the "fun" things about the episode was Baltar's little trick on Boomer. First, I don't think even the execution drugs kill so quickly. Second, there is no drug so easily, quickly and reliably reversed. Third, there's no brain stem death in ten seconds. Fourth, Baltar has no way of knowing that Boomer doesn't know this, or even understands it. Fifth, Baltar has no way of knowing that Boomer has any knowledge in her unconscious. Sixth, Baltar has no way of knowing that Boomer didn't just spout any old number, just to save the chief. Seventh, Baltar doesn't even know that Boomer had to override Cylon programming by sheer force of her love for the chief, since she may have just picked a number.

Despite all this, we may safely assume that this nonsense actually revealed true information. And, eighth, the chief should remember that Baltar said the detector actually worked. I doubt that he will for some reason, but Baltar couldn't know that.

There were some visually wacky moments as well. The civilians killed were somehow not killed by an actual soldier, despite being in a relatively small corridor at close quarters. The bullets just sort of wandered from the gun to the victim. The soldiers weren't even aiming. And since the bullets apparently went around corners the soldiers didn't even have to react! Can you say copout, children?

The Ruby shooting Oswald scene at the end was also notable. There is no sensible reason for transferring a prisoner from a brig to a makeshift cell. There is no sensible reason for a mob to come out of nowhere, unless you think Adama was such a crap commander that none of his people have any discipline at all. Last, there is no point to a Ruby/Oswald reference. It's just pretention to meaning.

The bookend drops of blood on the deck are ambiguous. Is the point that both human and Cylon bleed? Or is it ironic contrast? Literal bookends can point both ways too. I suppose someone with a conscience could try to seize upon this as a sign that the series actually has some awareness of genuine issues, like, what is humanity? I think it's supposed to be ironic contrast. After all, Starbuck, emotionally the central character, sets Helo straight on that in just a few words.

[Easter Lily]

Tigh may have invaluable military experience, but he's proven himself unfit to command. Besides his drinking problem, he has a disdain for civilians he doesn't bother to hide. He has no place being in a position where he could potentially end up leading the fleet. Yet there he is, by Adama's side, because Adama loves him and feels sorry for him, and will continue to make excuses for his behavior.

Well, I think it goes both ways... Tigh has been incredibly loyal also...

What you say is true but I don't think human beings always make the best decisions... they make the decisions they think is best at the time they make it.

[LoneStar1836]

what do you people like about the show?

Plenty but there really isn’t much point in detailing why I enjoy it immensely since you seem to find fault with it. I’m obviously not going to change your mind.

It’s called fanwanking over the minor details that I find difficult to rationalize. Such as the Marine in the causeway that was "closed for repair".....

But hey I like that you point out things you see and disagree with, even though I don’t agree with the majority of what you say. Gives me more points to ponder though. So post away.....

Barring an authorial miracle, these people are doomed. Personally, I prefer my tragedies to be somewhat shorter. It gives them more punch.

So I guess you’re hoping they meet their timely destruction at the end of this season….

I don't think it's really possible to deny that this rigmarole is designed to put the blame for the massacre on Tigh.

I agree that they set up this episode to make people hate Tigh even more, though Adama's words at the end do lend themselves to creating sympathy for Tigh. It was Ellen who whispered sweet nothings in his ear telling him to be more of a man and don’t take this crap from these civilians. So I blame her for the killings because Tigh is so weak-minded around her especially when drinking. I just blame him for being stupid and listening to her.

The thing is that both this and the martial law declaration are inevitable outcomes of Adama's actions.

Whose hand was forced by Roslin, imo. I know that you don’t see it that way, which is fine, but I do.

First writing out Adama with a shooting, then writing this clumsy sequence of events however, the producers make it seem that it is Tigh's fault things went wrong.

Technically, Tigh did make things worse. He may have not got the ball rolling, but he kept it going.

This is just a dramatic copout from the consequences of the Adama/Roslin confrontation.

Well speaking for myself, I quite enjoyed the drama and am looking forward to how this will be played out.

Billy's turn against the president when he refuses to go with her to divide the fleet was foreshadowed.

It was but I didn’t think he would have the guts to go through with it. So when he finally did, I was surprised. It may have been last minute but at least he took a stand.

BSG's penchant for black and white characterization is in full flower here. It produces a camp classic possibly on par with the likes of Alexis Carrington!

So when are we going to get the catfight a la “Dynasty”? Ellen vs. Roslin perhaps.

Dualla's sudden discovery of Apollo ass is not quite so out of character.

Well it’s about damn time. I was worried she needed some glasses.

[Easter Lily]

BSG has reached social pathology status for me. The plotting is contrived. The characterizations are black and white, with some GOOD and others BAD. They are also inconsistent. The holocaust of humanity premise that supposedly makes the show realistically gritty is violated in the grossest way, with more civilians shown on Caprica than in the fleet! what do you people like about the show?

I said something similar on another thread and I think it bears repeating...

I don't watch science fiction because it reflects RL in its entirety... and I don't critique it according to how I THINK it should be. Quite frankly, I didn't think that there are rules about how it should be done. Because a) I don't go into another person's work of art and say that he/she should have put more shading here or there... I'm no expert but I know what I like; b) I critique a piece of art on the basis of what the artist is trying to do and how consistent the characters are in accordance with the world that they've set up.
Obviously there are recognizable RL parallels but IMO, if people watch scifi to see how it mirrors real life, they obviously don't understand "fiction" in the same way I do.

On the surface, BSG looks realistic and very gritty... Well, it is gritty. But realistic... no... but it doesn't worry me... I watch it for drama... and drama is contrived... Apparently if I want reality I should be watching something like Big Brother... but then I don't... It's also contrived... and apparently has a little drama but it lacks imagination and creativity.

I parallel BSG or any scifi show for that matter to something like Aesop's Fables. I know in real life lions and mice don't talk, much less help each other get out of nets and things. I don't much care. I like the fact that somebody has got the imagination and intelligence to tell an old story in a new way and leaving it to our imagination and intelligence to know the difference between art and reality.

[Jonisa]

BSG has reached social pathology status for me. The plotting is contrived. The characterizations are black and white, with some GOOD and others BAD. They are also inconsistent. The holocaust of humanity premise that supposedly makes the show realistically gritty is violated in the grossest way, with more civilians shown on Caprica than in the fleet! what do you people like about the show?

Good question.

For me, I watch and enjoy the show for the same reason that I watch certain other shows. I have grown to care about these characters and I want to see what happens to them. In any show there is some suspension of disbelief on my part, that's part of television, but BSG hasn't even come close to bothering me at all on that score. As a matter of fact, I love the continuity.

The other things I love about this show is that (IMO) it respects the intelligence of the viewer by not spoonfeeding us information. Instead, it lets us figure things out for ourselves. It raises lots of difficult questions that don't have easy answers, and it is constantly surprising me. Is it perfect? Of course not, and if I wanted to I could nitpick the show with the best of them, but I'm enjoying it so much right now I have no desire to do that.

I also love it for its great writing and acting, the way that the desperation of these survivors is so believable and real, and the way the intensity of their situation is kept up week after week.

But to reiterate what I initially said, I love it mostly because of the characters. I don't agree that some characters are GOOD and others are BAD. I see them as wonderfully complex. This is a character-driven drama that just so happens to be set on a battlestar out in space. I wouldn't want all of my scifi to be like this show, but I sure am glad that BSG is around. It is my favorite show.

This is all MHO, of course.