Scattered (201)

[Liebestraume]

... Baltar had been umm……contributing his genetic material in all their sexual escapades.

Now about that, who is to say it was not all in his head?

[Agent_Dark]

Now about that, who is to say it was not all in his head?

Well, its safe to assume that the Six on Caprica in the mini-series was real. Otherwise, I don't think she'd have been able to interact with that Mother and baby

[LoneStar1836]

Well there was a real one bebopping around there on Caprica somewhere. Like Agent Dark said about her and the baby, but then you have Six sitting there in Baltar’s home while he’s with another woman, and when she says something the other woman can see her. So there was a real one.

Now whether or not that real one got it on with Baltar could possibly be in question, so you have a point there. It could be quit possible that that was the chip or whatever it is that makes Baltar see her. I think he would have noticed, but then again……… Six doesn’t seem like she’d pass up "that" opportunity and let the chip do all the work.

[leeadamaisacylon]

Sad to say that Lee is a Cylon. If you watch the whole first season with him being a Cylon in mind, everything makes a whole lot of sense. Besides, Commander Adama himself said, "Leobon tells half-truths." As far as I'm concerned, the only time he lied was when he said that there was a nuke on one of the ships, and that was just so he could get a chance to talk, to be taken more seriously. He eventually fessed up to that one, anyway. I think that having Lee be a Cylon would not be a mistake. This is probably one of the smartest moves on television. Paranoia? No. Logic. As for throwing things at the TV when they reveal it? Come on, grow up. If you can't handle a wrench in your perfect American Leave-it-to-Beaver storyline, then how can you possibly cope with the *ahem* adult situations that arise? I don't think RDM is afraid to kill anyone off or to make our favorite characters Cylons. That's pretty much the premise of the whole show: They Look Like Us. And don't feel bad for them..."Cylons have more fun."

[LoneStar1836]

Sad to say that Lee is a Cylon. If you watch the whole first season with him being a Cylon in mind, everything makes a whole lot of sense.

Out of curiosity, just what examples are you basing this statement on. I can’t go back and watch season one if I don’t know what to look for.

As for throwing things at the TV when they reveal it? Come on, grow up. If you can't handle a wrench in your perfect American Leave-it-to-Beaver storyline, then how can you possibly cope with the *ahem* adult situations that arise?

I’m pretty sure people here were just joking. No need to be patronizing and tell people to “grow up”, especially since you were aiming that at some posters that I highly respect for their maturity. If people, including myself, would rather Lee not turn out to be a Cylon, then I think we are entitled to our opinions. Your comments were uncalled for.

[Easter Lily]

Sad to say that Lee is a Cylon. If you watch the whole first season with him being a Cylon in mind, everything makes a whole lot of sense.

As LS has indicated... chapter and verse please...
I don't know about you but I don't know how I can watch the whole first season with "Lee being a cylon in mind" because I have no idea how a cylon thinks... Some are sleepers, some are manipulators, some are trying to get pregnant and some are killing machines... If there is a single "cylon" mentality/personality... I have yet to see it...
The fact that Lee has a background and a very public history obviously doesn't factor into the scheme of things.

Besides, Commander Adama himself said, "Leobon tells half-truths." As far as I'm concerned, the only time he lied was when he said that there was a nuke on one of the ships, and that was just so he could get a chance to talk, to be taken more seriously. He eventually fessed up to that one, anyway.

And based on that fact you say that Lee is a cylon... well, I don't know about anybody else, but to make such an important declaration with such certainty based on the words on a highly unreliable (if not dubious) witness suggests to me a certain degree of desperation which is not warranted.
One could equally accuse Leoben of spreading misinformation to cause doubt and tension in the ranks, which he, of course, was successful in doing.

I think that having Lee be a Cylon would not be a mistake. This is probably one of the smartest moves on television. Paranoia? No. Logic. As for throwing things at the TV when they reveal it? Come on, grow up. If you can't handle a wrench in your perfect American Leave-it-to-Beaver storyline, then how can you possibly cope with the *ahem* adult situations that arise? I don't think RDM is afraid to kill anyone off or to make our favorite characters Cylons. That's pretty much the premise of the whole show: They Look Like Us. And don't feel bad for them..."Cylons have more fun."

Well, I'm certainly glad that "adult situations" in life don't include my finding out that my husband of 9 years is a cylon... Esp. considering that he is adopted...

There's no denying that it'll be interesting television but it still needs to be consistent with the story that they are already selling... not just a gimmicky plot device stuck there to get a reaction.

[Jonisa]

Sad to say that Lee is a Cylon. If you watch the whole first season with him being a Cylon in mind, everything makes a whole lot of sense.

I too have entertained the idea that Lee is a Cylon, as evidenced by my musings upthread. I have to admit I don't like the idea much, but we'll see where RM goes with it (or doesn't). However, I have the feeling I could pick any character and watch the first season thinking that particular person is a Cylon and find a fair bit of evidence to support the idea, so that particular method of proof doesn't work for me.

I think that having Lee be a Cylon would not be a mistake. This is probably one of the smartest moves on television.

I respectfully disagree with this statement. I think has more than enough interesting issues already as a human, and making him a Cylon would gimmicky plot device (as Easter Lily stated), designed to shock the audience rather than advance the story. Also I don't quite understand how that would work with his backstory, but that's mostly because I'm unclear on how Cylons are created and what their plan is. (If you know, *don't* tell me. I don't like spoilers. ).

But my faith in Ron Moore isn't tarnished, and if he wants to make any character, including Lee, a Cylon, I'm sure he'll manage a way to do it believably. I may not like it, but there isn't much I can do about it. We shall see.

As for throwing things at the TV when they reveal it? Come on, grow up. If you can't handle a wrench in your perfect American Leave-it-to-Beaver storyline, then how can you possibly cope with the *ahem* adult situations that arise? I don't think RDM is afraid to kill anyone off or to make our favorite characters Cylons. That's pretty much the premise of the whole show: They Look Like Us. And don't feel bad for them..."Cylons have more fun."

Glad you could join us in this happy little BSG-loving section of Gateworld, leeadamaisacylon. As you can see, we enjoy joking with each other about the show, and if you read some of the comments of the other posters on this thread, you'll notice some intelligent, insightful, adult conversation about many of the developments so far and the themes raised in the show by my fellow posters.

[Liebestraume]

...However, I have the feeling I could pick any character and watch the first season thinking that particular person is a Cylon and find a fair bit of evidence to support the idea, ...

Yeah -- come to think of it, Helo must be a cylon! If it weren't for him, Baltar would never have been able to get on Galactica. If Baltar hadn't get on Galactica, he would never have become "hand of god" -- the way he likens himself these days. (BTW, his Christ-like pose was in Hand of God, not 6 Degrees of Separation as I mistakenly suggested in the VoD thread.)

I vote Helo for cylon!

[leeadamaisacylon]

The boxing scene--"you have to lose control, you have to go with your instincts." There's something lacking in your character...

He doesn't have that public of a history. Every Cylon shows up just before things start happening. Doral was new--assigned for the big show. Baltar just shows up after being blown up. Ellen Tigh just showed up "last thing I remembered I was in the airport..." Leobon just happened to be onboard one of the carriers, hidden away somewhere. Boomer is the only exception to this. She was there all along. Lee? He was gone for a number of years, comes back right before the big attacks.

What more does Ron Moore have to have there except, "Adama is a Cylon"? Everything else just has to make sense. Being a Cylon would not detract from his character. We see from Boomer that the Cylons are complex. Cylons are people, too!

And as far as my Leave it to Beaver comment, that was just a bit of sarcasm. I spose I should have added a little wink.

[Liebestraume]

The boxing scene--"you have to lose control, you have to go with your instincts." There's something lacking in your character...

I'm not sure what your point is here. Agreed that there is something lacking in Lee's character, but so is there in everyone else's. In fact, being flawed is a very human condition. How is that necessarily making Lee cylon?

Or are you arguing for being control = being cylon? If so, then I again beg to differ. Nature and nurture both play a huge part in the makeup of a personality, and the depiction of Adama father-son relationship thus far has given us some insight into Lee's cool-headedness. And let's not forget Lee did lose control -- both time over Kara (but the why is a whole another topic).

He doesn't have that public of a history. Every Cylon shows up just before things start happening. Doral was new--assigned for the big show. Baltar just shows up after being blown up. Ellen Tigh just showed up "last thing I remembered I was in the airport..." Leobon just happened to be onboard one of the carriers, hidden away somewhere. Boomer is the only exception to this. She was there all along.

Presumably, by "shows up" you meant showing up on Galactica ('cos otherwise, everyone "shows up just before things start happening" ). We don't know if Ellen and Baltar are both cylons, so they do not contribute to your theory (because a conjecture cannot be proved by another unproved conjecture). Besides, I'm not sure how Baltar being a cylon would support your argument, since he had had a very public history.

Among the confirmed cylons, only Doral fits you description -- Leobon didn't show up on Galactica until his arrest so he doesn't qualify and, as you said, Boomer had been there all along. Therefore, the argument is inconclusive -- Lee's not having a public history and showing up right before the war proves nothing.

What more does Ron Moore have to have there except, "Adama is a Cylon."

How about show us? After all, TV is supposed to be a visual medium. Not everything is supposed to be taken at face value.

Everything else has to make sense. Being a Cylon would not detract from his character. We see from Boomer that the Cylons are complex. Cylons are people, too!

I would agree that cylons are complex, sentient beings. Perhaps there is even individuality among their ranks, as evinced in Boomer's case. However, none of those attributes automatically make them "people."

I don't know if being cylon would detract from Lee's character because, as you said, he is a (fictional) character. I do know, however, Lee being a cylon would detract my enjoyment of BSG. Because what attracts me to this show is the indomitable human spirit, the way human ideals endure despite of seemingly insurmountable odds.

And as far as my Leave it to Beaver comment, that was just a bit of sarcasm. I spose I should have added a little wink.

A smiley would have been nice; nevertheless, I appreciate this second post explaining the reasoning behind your claim.

[leeadamaisacylon]

What this all boils down to is that each of us takes what we want out of every action, reaction, every line, every display. this applies to both the show and other people's comments. I think you are interpreting what I'm saying wrong (when I say what more does RDM need, I mean if he decides to reveal Lee as a Cylon, he doesn't need any other previous evidence than that, everything else in the series just has to make sense with the claim.)

Personally, I haven't seen or heard anything in the show or on the forum threads to convince me Lee isn't a Cylon.

When Lee turns out to be a toaster, I won't give you an I-told-you-so.

[Liebestraume]

What this all boils down to is that each of us takes what we want out of every action, reaction, every line, every display. this applies to both the show and other people's comments.

Not so. Note that no one purported "Lee Adama is not a cylon and here is why." I was just saying the evidence and logic you cited do not support your theory.

I think you are interpreting what I'm saying wrong (when I say what more does RDM need, I mean if he decides to reveal Lee as a Cylon, he doesn't need any other previous evidence than that, everything else in the series just has to make sense with the claim.)

On the contrary, if RDM decides to "reveal" Lee as a cylon, he'd better establish ample evidence prior to that; otherwise, it's just bad story-telling. (Incidentally, this is what I meant by "show us.") If you claim he already has laid the groundwork for that reveal, then you need sound logic to explain why.

Personally, I haven't seen or heard anything in the show or on the forum threads to convince me Lee isn't a Cylon.

As I said above, no one in this thread is trying to.

When Lee turns out to be a toaster, I won't give you an I-told-you-so.

Awwww, I'm crushed.

[Vorlon-1]

If Lee was a Cylon he would be the first with a history going back to his birth hence his father. No other known human model cylon has this kind of history established yet. Boomer is probably the closest with a history dating back to flight school with her comrades. It would change evrything. No longer are they models unique unto themselves.

[leeadamaisacylon]

If Lee was a Cylon he would be the first with a history going back to his birth hence his father. No other known human model cylon has this kind of history established yet. Boomer is probably the closest with a history dating back to flight school with her comrades. It would change evrything. No longer are they models unique unto themselves.

Yes, it would change some stuff. However, you are forgetting the obvious Cylon, Ellen Tigh. "If she's not a Cylon, we're all in big trouble." She pumps them for information like a gossip Queen, She killed, not have someone else, the guy in lockup. She appeared mysteriously out of nowhere. She was the #1 suspect of Commander Adama. The whole episode was about her being suspected as a Cylon. What's the proof she's not? Baltar's lie? "No muss, no fuss." Okay, so she's a Cylon with quite the background. She was the XO's wife, for goodness' sakes!

And as for Liebestraume, please, prove my point that people have different interpretations of what others say. Please, do it. Anyway...think of the Sixth Sense. It's all there, it all makes sense, but nobody saw it coming. "Adama is a Cylon" is just like little Haley Joel staring into Bruce Willis' eyes saying, "I see dead people...they don't even know they're dead..." Leobon was staring into Roslin's eyes saying, "I see a Cylon. He doesn't even know he is one."

[Easter Lily]

Why should the burden of proof be on us to show that Lee is not a cylon? This is a show about the remnants of the human race surviving a holocaust, so the focus is on the humans not the cylons. The humans are the ones that are featured episode after episode, it is their plight and their woes with which we are engaged. The cylons are skulking around in the dark... manipulating people and prophecy... with an agenda that is largely hidden from the viewer. With that in mind, I would think that it would be a natural thing to assume that most of the main characters, at least, are human unless told otherwise.

At this point, there is no clear, demonstrable evidence that Lee is a cylon. You agreed with me in the "Cylon Suspects" thread that Lee has not been in touch with Kara and Adama for roughly 2 years. The timeline suggests to us that although they haven't been in contact for much of that time, he hasn't exactly been idle. He has been in the military and has even been promoted during that time.

You have come to the table with the assumption that Lee Adama is a cylon, highlighting certain events and situations. When I look at those same events, I see Lee very much as a normal human being with strengths and weaknesses. The problem with your argument is that you put X+Y+Z together and you see a cylon. When I see X+Y+Z, I see a human being with issues. We can't have a proper argument here because fundamentally, we don't really know that much about cylons, we don't know if cylons are A, B, or C... or X, Y, or Z... What is it that makes a cylon , a cylon and not a human? Who is their god? What makes them tick? Do they have the same emotions? Do they come from the lab or from mummies and daddies? Do they have issues?

Personally I would like to find out a lot more about cylons before I make up my mind about whether Lee or anyone else is a cylon.