Collaborators (305)

[SoulReaver]

I absolutly agree, a mass-pardon was the only way to resolve the situation in a manner that would support the goal of the fleet- saving humanity. They have bigger issues out there then the need for vengence. There will be a lot of people who are angry over this

yep - won't be surprised if the murder rate shoots up in the next few days hehe...

[The Shadow]

I agree - they're busy enough running over their own citizens

Is that sarcasm I hear??
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Oh and I wasn't taking it seriously.....just warning him that others may not be okay with it.....he's bring up a rather touchy-some topic for some people...and maybe that next time when using examples..becareful with what is written down...some may take offense at it even if it's unintended...the way he worded the sentence just struck a nerve on me and some of my friends and I thought he should know about that....
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Roslin's decision of mass pardon- some people deserved it while others don't...people like Gaeta should be honored....Jammer was caught up in "the wrong place at the wrong time" but if we do take a life for a life...didn't Jammer help protect the fleet from the cylons and flew vipers out into battles? Did they forget that he was one of those that risked his life to protect the fleet when they were running away from the cylons all those years? So he and his men killed 23 people, including children, but didn't he save even more people, women and children alike, everytime he flys out to fight off cylon attacks....I think they've forgotten all the good things he did..they were certainly clouded by their own feelings....

Yes Jammer is guilty of killing those people...but I thought getting airlocked was going over the line...

[hbk314]

Jammer wasn't a pilot. He worked with Tyrol and Cally.

[helio9]

This ep also proves what we already knew, Col. Tigh is a really crappy officer. He's just crazy/damaged/unstable enough to be a good insurgency leader, but as an officer his personal flaws and bad judgement overwhelm any good he can do.
Having to kill his wife will probably make it even worse.

[grover]

No kidding! I'm glad it was just a mentioned rather then us seeing a second massecre, we saw enough of the NCP's other deeds to get the idea.

Wow. You have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?

There was no second massacre.

Jammer was executed for leading a massacre at a Temple. The writers were referrencing the Temple massacre from the webisodes. This is a major continuity mistake because Jammer wasn't part of the NCP when the massacre happened!

The timeline does not support a second Temple massacre, at least not one that Jammer could have taken part in.

[Major Fischer]

The timeline does not support a second Temple massacre, at least not one that Jammer could have taken part in.

You are assuming a continuity mistake and claiming the timeline doesn't support another massacre without evidence to support that claim. The temple massacre as described in Jammer's execution is different in almost every detail than the one from the Webisodes. The NCP did not exist as such when the first temple massacre occured.

The second massacre describes the NCP (not cylon centurions) killing people after they came out in an attempt to surrendar. There is clearly some amount of time between the suicide bombing that would have brought down a heavy response from the NCP and Roslin's release from detention. It could have been days... it could have been as much as two weeks.

[Actionhank]

Does Colonel Tigh now play the role of "Captain Ahab"?

[lutin]

Decent ep.

-So, no Adama/Roslin reunion scene. No real scenes at all between them. Boo, I say boo sir.

-Cally, wha? Who forgets about someone cutting your bonds and yelling at you to escape from what you thought was certain death?

-Ha, I thought that Roslin would elect Zarek as VP. And I was all for the duo until I found out that he was responsible for the Circle. Is he going to keep his position after he revealed his actions to her? Adama looks less than impressed with him. How did Zarek turn from an ex-prisoner demanding democracy in the fleet to a president okay with trials kept hidden from the public?

-Tigh's lost it and I find myself more peeved with him than sympathetic. Openly attacking Gaeta on the CIC and arguing with Adama was OTT. I feel like he died back on NC and there's only a shell walking around. Will he heal or will TPTB kill him off in some kind of suicide run? And why does Adama allow him to remain as 2IC (if that's what he is) when Tigh so obviously needs ten years or so of downtime and Lee or Helo could take his place?

-No discussion on who's the higher rank now, Tigh or Lee. What's Lee doing nowadays besides the jumprope? And what's up with Adama's cold dismissal toward his son, especially after their reunion last ep?

-Poor Gaeta. No one wants to eat lunch with him in the mess hall, Starbuck gives him a good boot, and he almost dies. At least he didn't beg. I wonder if the ep would have been more powerful if they had killed Gaeta before realizing that he was the contact.

-It would have been nice to see Sharon. What would the Circle have thought of her? Does she get a pardon because she's working for Adama now and helped save them, even though she's a cylon?

-Meh, losing the Starbuck love this ep. She's going through tough times after her capture, she knows she's going through tough times, but she doesn't care. She dumps Anders, she goes after Gaeta with a viciousness. So that's the end of Starbuck/Anders, total shock really (/sarcasm). Next ep - the end of Lee/Dee (okay, maybe not next ep but I can't see that one going long if TPTB are setting up Lee/Kara). I swear, if TPTB keep Starbuck around as a total wreck just waiting for Lee to come in and save her, I'm going to be most disappointed.

-Ha ha, Baltar. IM IN UR BASESTAR, WEARIN UR ROBEZ. I can't believe that the cylons are going to kill him off, so I'm interested in where this is going. Anyone catch what those pills were? Also, would Roslin have pardoned Baltar too if he was on Galactica?

I totally agree with that.

I just want to add. I think now we had enough Tigh angst. And as much as I like him (a little few, now), and other secondary characters, I miss the main cast.
I 'm waiting to see more interactions like in season 2, now
Adama isn't very much present, and I find the show incomplete without him. We didn't see a lot of Lee or Sharon so far.

So, bring back Adama and ADAMA/Lee, Adama/ Kara, Adama Roslin, ect...

Thank you!!!

[Trek_Girl42]

Wow. You have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?

There was no second massacre.

Jammer was executed for leading a massacre at a Temple. The writers were referrencing the Temple massacre from the webisodes. This is a major continuity mistake because Jammer wasn't part of the NCP when the massacre happened!

The timeline does not support a second Temple massacre, at least not one that Jammer could have taken part in.

Funny how I remember centurians causing that temple massacre.....

The webisode massicre was simpley cylons coming in shooting- as far as we could tell the NCP weren't involved. The account of the other massacre desribed people coming out of the temple, who the NCP thought to be insurgents, no similarities aside from the fact that the location was a temple. We didn't see Jammer every second down on NC during those first few eps (which covered several days), and there's no evidence to state that he couldn't have participated in the raid.

Edit: seems Major Fisher covered it all in an above post

[Arative]

Wow. You have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?

There was no second massacre.

Jammer was executed for leading a massacre at a Temple. The writers were referrencing the Temple massacre from the webisodes. This is a major continuity mistake because Jammer wasn't part of the NCP when the massacre happened!

The timeline does not support a second Temple massacre, at least not one that Jammer could have taken part in.

The first temple massacre that occured in the webisodes was done by the centurion cylons. Go watch it again, you'll hear bullets that sound exactly like what the bullet head cylons sound like when firing, you'll hear them moving around and you'll hear their eye moving back and forth. This first massacre by cylons is what made Jammer join the NCP, so he could prevent it from happening again because the NCP was suppose to patrol the streets instead of the bullet heads.

There was no continuity error other than the one you are making up due to a misinterrpting things. The 2nd massacre took place off screen and was basically put there to give a good excuse for the Circle to airlock Jammer. It would have been a very tough sell to the audience for the Circle to just airlock Jammer because he joined the NCP. But the fact that he took place in a massacre that killed 23 people, the audience will feel less sympathitic to him when he is airlocked and more in tune with the Circle.

upcoming episode spoilers

Spoiler:

We may see Jammer again in an upcoming episode that deals with flashback on New Caprica. According to a David Eick blog entry, the webisodes were filmed at the same time they were filming episode 7, which in flashbacks takes place on New Caprica. Chances are we might see the temple massacre.

[Skydiver]

i believe there is also a disparity on the number of deaths. the first massacre, in the webisodes, had a death toll of 10 i think, while the second has a death toll of 23

1
there was no surrender
the bullet heads did it
death toll of 10
no ncp in existence

2
there was a surrender before the bullets started flying
the ncp did it
death toll of 23
the ncp exists

everything indicates that the massacre we saw on the webisodes is not the same one they refer to on the show

and as others have pointed out, the humans are multi-thiestic, they worship multiple gods, which suggests that they have more than one temple

My image is, after the ncp was created and after the graduation bombing, the cylons set the ncp out to check all the temples. this was likely the first time the ncp got to 'police' anything, tensions were high and emotions ran deep adn things got very heated, very fast adn it ended in a shoot out...in which jammer participated

[full.infinity]

Wait he wasn't "evil or mean"?? He joined up with the people who slaughtered BILLIONS of people, wiped his whole race off the face of the universe. The people who were killing and torturing the few remainders and he wasn't evil? Working with them in any way is evil.

This is OT, but it reminds me of one of the major things that bugs me about the science fiction subgenre of "man vs. machine"(BSG, Terminator, The Matrix). The machine is always the evil one. I'd like something in that genre where the machines are shown as good and humanity itself as evil.

[Back40]

You are assuming a continuity mistake and claiming the timeline doesn't support another massacre without evidence to support that claim. The temple massacre as described in Jammer's execution is different in almost every detail than the one from the Webisodes. The NCP did not exist as such when the first temple massacre occured.

The second massacre describes the NCP (not cylon centurions) killing people after they came out in an attempt to surrendar. There is clearly some amount of time between the suicide bombing that would have brought down a heavy response from the NCP and Roslin's release from detention. It could have been days... it could have been as much as two weeks.

Give it up. grover and I discussed this ad nauseum a few pages back, and have agreed to disagree - I think the timeline allowed for more than one massacre, grover does not see it that way

[grover]

You are assuming a continuity mistake and claiming the timeline doesn't support another massacre without evidence to support that claim. The temple massacre as described in Jammer's execution is different in almost every detail than the one from the Webisodes. The NCP did not exist as such when the first temple massacre occured.

The second massacre describes the NCP (not cylon centurions) killing people after they came out in an attempt to surrendar. There is clearly some amount of time between the suicide bombing that would have brought down a heavy response from the NCP and Roslin's release from detention. It could have been days... it could have been as much as two weeks.

I have provided "evidence" to support my "no 2nd massacre" claim, I'm sorry if you missed the posts. Here's what I said earlier:

http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....&postcount=161

Hope the link works because I don't feel like writing the whole thing over again.

I understand that the story told at Jammer's execution was different from what happened in webisodes. I understand that they're trying to create a seperate incident. What I'm saying is that this incident, this second massacre, could not have happened before Duck's suicide bombing. We know the round-up would have happened immediately afterwards. It doesn't make sense for Baltar to wait days or weeks before confronting Rosalin in the prison cell. It doesn't make sense for the Cylons to wait weeks before deciding to execute the capitives as a response to the bombing. You're trying to add a 2 week break in a spot where it doesn't work.

Look at this from a different angle. Let's forget about the "Collaborators" episode. When you're watching the season premier does it feel like there has been any kind of of break in the timeline of events? When you're watching the scene between Rosalin and Baltar do you get any sense that there has been an extended time lapse between the bombing and the prison chat? I don't think you did the first time you watched it, I know I didn't and Moore gives us no indication that such a time gap has occured in the writing of the scene. And from that point on to Galactica breaking atmo there is no time for Jammer to have led a Temple massacre.

[grover]

Funny how I remember centurians causing that temple massacre.....

The webisode massicre was simpley cylons coming in shooting- as far as we could tell the NCP weren't involved. The account of the other massacre desribed people coming out of the temple, who the NCP thought to be insurgents, no similarities aside from the fact that the location was a temple. We didn't see Jammer every second down on NC during those first few eps (which covered several days), and there's no evidence to state that he couldn't have participated in the raid.

Edit: seems Major Fisher covered it all in an above post

The description of the second massacre doesn't matter. I'm not saying that Jammer took part in the massacre that was featured in the webisodes. Jammer was part of the same graduation class as Duck, which means he could not have led (i.e. be in charge of) a massacre at another Temple prior to the day that Season 3 opened on. The timeline between Duck's suicide bombing and Galactica's return doesn't allow for a second massacre to have happened. Maybe if I gave an example this would be clearer.

I live in Oregon. On Monday I came home from work and carried my trash can back up towards the house. On Tuesday I went to Mars and had the most amazing sex with Selma Hayek. She had cloned herself so it was like being with triplets and when Mira Sorvino came out... WOW! And on Wednesday I had to go to the store to buy a gallon of milk.

Now, just looking at that timeline, you have to ask yourself... "is it possible that grover was actually able to get to Mars to have sex with Selma and Mira and still make it back to Earth so he could go to the store on Wednesday?"

It's not likely. So maybe it didn't happen.

(OK, I confess... Mira never showed.)