Daybreak, Part 3 (421)

[HAL2100]

Wait a minute. We became what we are, because the "38,000 cultured, educated and English speaking citizens from another world landed on ours 150,000 years ago", and not in spite of it.

If you're referencing to the decadence shown in the final scene, I disagree. The influence of a group of enlighten persons from 150,000 would have been minimal at that point. Unless there is a very, very hard demand for each generation to remember the sins of the prior generation, then each generation would loose just a little bit of the past. Add that up over time and its all lost.

If you've read Dune and are familar with the Golden Path and the actions of Leto II, then you know that his intent with suppressing the known galaxy with an Iron Fist as hard as he did was to ensure that humanity would learn a lesson that they would not forget that would be key to their survivor thousands of years later.

[Arative]

So no one really answered because of all these thread mergings with this thread.

How can 38,000 english speaking humans be dropped onto our Earth 150,000 years ago across the entire planet, one of them (Hera) apparently breeds with a LOT of people and is the common ancestor for most humans 150,000 years later.. but in this world (OUR world now), they would have been speaking English in Tanzania.. and South America.. and America (before Aztecs, before Native Americans, etc.). So kind of a big plot hole to be saying that 38,000 cultured, educated and English speaking citizens from another world landed on ours 150,000 years ago and their history turned out the same as ours.

I'm pretty sure if someone took a time machine right now and shoved a random 38,000 people from America into it, dropped them off 150,000 years ago, Times Square wouldn't be there.

They weren't speaking English, they were speaking Colonial, your TV just has a magic device that translates their words into English, so you can understand it.

Read this wiki article, will help explain what mitochondrial eve is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_eve

[bfldworker]

Not neccessarily. You're assuming that there's a direct correlation between the distance that can be covered via FTL jumps and a ship traveling at near light spead. FTL isn't 'true' Faster Than Light, its actually a dimensional drive hence the Raptors causing the damage when they jumped in close proximity.

Another comparison would be that a jump drive Folds space. That is at least one theory. An other theory about Jump drives is that is creates a spacial disturbance and the ship uses that disturbance to go from point a to point b. One additional theory which violates theory of Relativity is that it goes through space so quick it seems like it is instantaneous.

[knowles2]

I personnel think the mitochondrial eve and 150,000 year and the rediculous nonsense that was the million light years and god was the answer to everything was four of the weakness story elements with in the episode and personally shows lack of planning and detailing and thinking, an knowing your own universe, which was all pretty obvious in the final and why I rate the final an 7 when compared to other finals, it get about 5 or below when compared to the mini series and the first season of BSG. CGI I gets a Ten out of Ten but the space battle and it planning only get 2, as it largely been seen and all heard before and nothing original.

The eve part was like ooh I just read this interesting article about mitochondrial eve and now lets include it in bsg somehow.
The million light years was ooh the fleet between travelling for so long let slap the largest distance we can think on it, but not to large to make it completely unbelievable, but large enough that in contradicts other elements of the story, a million light years sound good.

Now these articals in robotics sound interest lets link it in somehow restarting the cycle, let show a scene from 150,000 years in the future. An there you go that our ending, and we can have Kara just dissappear, the bridge become a opera house in middle of a battle scene and well we do not have to worry about the other questions as the god statement take care of all those, it was god that cause the cylons fleet to know where the human fleet was, it was god that cause the power blackout that nearly doomed the fleet, it was god that place the probe with the virus, it was god...........you get my point but I guest it was the only way to answer all the questions in 2 hours and with in the budget, it was god that did everything, which is the lamest of lame of get out jail free cards that a writer can use, not as lame as just not answering the question at all but not far off. There you go, it what we got and it what we got to live with, unless someone want to write a fan fiction of the last episode of BSG .

But we can all look forward to a remake, as this all happen before and Hollywood will make sure it all happens again.

[knowles2]

Not neccessarily. You're assuming that there's a direct correlation between the distance that can be covered via FTL jumps and a ship traveling at near light spead. FTL isn't 'true' Faster Than Light, its actually a dimensional drive hence the Raptors causing the damage when they jumped in close proximity.

Do not see what effect this would have on the distance travelled.
It be stupid to measure a distance in normal space a lys an jump drive as something different, that would cause all types of confusions which is not good when running a war ship. It just would not make sense and it was never mention in the series that the distance use when jumping is different that other distances measurements such as lightyears.
Lightyears has been mention and it would make sense to use that measurement for everything when travelling into space even if the jump engines did not use lightyears measurement distance to calculate jumps, what ever it did use would automatically converted it jumped back into a standard light year for ease of use and understanding and the calculations by hand would done using lightyears and converted by the computer back into what the jump engines needs to operate.
How ever I pretty sure the jump engines would just use a standard light year in its calculations. Mean a million lightyears was a million light years.

[Hermano Bluth]

Any refined metal would be gone, rusted away. Clothing would rot away. If you get the chance, check out a special on the history channel or natgeo, I think it is titled Earth after humans. Basically details what would happen to the planet if humans just disappeared. Something like 10,000 years, pretty much all traces of us would be gone from the planet.

Ah, ok...that makes sense...thanks...i will definitely check out that special.

[abc123]

Jump ahead another 500 years or so and "Earth" becomes "Earth-that-was"...



All this has happened before, and will happen again...cyclons attacking the Alliance? The idea is just too awesome for words.

[VSS]

If you're referencing to the decadence shown in the final scene, I disagree. The influence of a group of enlighten persons from 150,000 would have been minimal at that point. Unless there is a very, very hard demand for each generation to remember the sins of the prior generation, then each generation would loose just a little bit of the past. Add that up over time and its all lost.

<snip>

I know it's probably not along the lines of what you were thinking when you wrote this, but there is reading and writing.

That's what makes this unbelievable. Yes, the sins of the prior generation would be forgotten, but the key to civilization is a written language, and the former Colonialists would have known that, as well as would have continued to use it. There are various dystopian futures that have been proposed, e.g. Cormac McCarthy's The Road where literacy was a luxury of the past. But that wouldn't have been the case here. That is the one thing about this scenario that simply doesn't ring true.

[VSS]

Wait a minute. We became what we are, because the "38,000 cultured, educated and English speaking citizens from another world landed on ours 150,000 years ago", and not in spite of it.

NOOOO!

I prefer the theory where a big black monolith appears to a clan of prehumans and jump starts evolution.

[HAL2100]

Do not see what effect this would have on the distance travelled.
It be stupid to measure a distance in normal space a lys an jump drive as something different, that would cause all types of confusions which is not good when running a war ship. It just would not make sense and it was never mention in the series that the distance use when jumping is different that other distances measurements such as lightyears.
Lightyears has been mention and it would make sense to use that measurement for everything when travelling into space even if the jump engines did not use lightyears measurement distance to calculate jumps, what ever it did use would automatically converted it jumped back into a standard light year for ease of use and understanding and the calculations by hand would done using lightyears and converted by the computer back into what the jump engines needs to operate.
How ever I pretty sure the jump engines would just use a standard light year in its calculations. Mean a million lightyears was a million light years.

I was referring to the distance that a ship using FTL drives would cover versus a ship traveling at the close to the speed of light - not the unit of measure.

If a car were to cover 1,000 miles in 1 second via a dimensional jump, it has traveled further than a car driving at 85 mph. In the 1 second that it covered 1,000 miles a car at 85 mph would have only covered .02 miles. If that same car were to continue driving for 2,000 constantly, the distance that it would cover would still be minute compared to the distanced covered by the car making the FTL jumps - assuming that the car was making the FTL jumps somewhat constantly.

[HAL2100]

NOOOO!

I prefer the theory where a big black monolith appears to a clan of prehumans and jump starts evolution.

How do you know that there wasn't a black monolith invovled?

[Skydiver]

Any refined metal would be gone, rusted away. Clothing would rot away. If you get the chance, check out a special on the history channel or natgeo, I think it is titled Earth after humans. Basically details what would happen to the planet if humans just disappeared. Something like 10,000 years, pretty much all traces of us would be gone from the planet.

right

within a couple hundred years even cities like new york would be well on their way to being reclaimed

150,000 years? especially taken into account tornados, fires, droughts, floods, etc, a few crumbling ruins would be all that's left

the giza pyramids are 3000ish years old, and they've only survived because of their tremendous bulk and were often buried in the sand. exposed metal and glass will oxidize much faster

[VSS]

How do you know that there wasn't a black monolith invovled?

You're absolutely right.
That would have been much further than 150,000 years in the past, and completely compatible with BSG.

Whew! I just hate it when my fictional universes collide.

[pbellosom]

How can 38,000 english speaking humans be dropped onto our Earth 150,000 years ago across the entire planet, one of them (Hera) apparently breeds with a LOT of people and is the common ancestor for most humans 150,000 years later.. but in this world (OUR world now), they would have been speaking English in Tanzania.. and South America.. and America (before Aztecs, before Native Americans, etc.). So kind of a big plot hole to be saying that 38,000 cultured, educated and English speaking citizens from another world landed on ours 150,000 years ago and their history turned out the same as ours.

They weren't speaking English. The script writers just wrote the script in English so it would be easier for you to understand and so they wouldn't have to spend ages actually creating a new language to write the show in. Look at any show set in a foreign country, you don't really expect them all to be talking English there even though that's what you hear do you?

Jump ahead another 500 years or so and "Earth" becomes "Earth-that-was"...



All this has happened before, and will happen again...cyclons attacking the Alliance? The idea is just too awesome for words.

It really is...

[HAL2100]

I know it's probably not along the lines of what you were thinking when you wrote this, but there is reading and writing.

That's what makes this unbelievable. Yes, the sins of the prior generation would be forgotten, but the key to civilization is a written language, and the former Colonialists would have known that, as well as would have continued to use it. There are various dystopian futures that have been proposed, e.g. Cormac McCarthy's The Road where literacy was a luxury of the past. But that wouldn't have been the case here. That is the one thing about this scenario that simply doesn't ring true.

Written communication is limited if those reading it do not understand the concepts. (Would a society that hasn't had telephones for centuries understand a job description of an operator or a call center rep? If I use the term 'party-line' - a term from just a decade or two ago - do you even know what I'm referring to?)

If the Colonials had written their own history using terms and concepts in their own language such as Cylon, robot, thinking machine, artificial intelligence, the meaning of those concepts would have been lost over time. The first generation Survivors would of course know them, but when the second generation came around, even if the 1st Generation described the concepts, the 2nd Generation wouldn't fully understand them. (How do you describe a 'copy machine' to someone that's never seen one?) They might understand the concepts, but the full understanding wouldn't be there. Then when the 2nd Gen passes on to the 3rd, the 3rd wouldn't have the same understanding. It becomes a situation of the children's game Telephone. Each generation describes to the best of their ability the technology, the events, the lessons, but over time the understanding would be lost. Stretch that over 150,000 years and its all easily lost to time.

We see this even today. I work in the Meeting & Trade Show industry. If I tell you that I'm a Travel Director or Field Staff, you won't fully appreciate all that that entails unless you're in the industry. Even if I go into specifics of the job duties, after I've described my job to you, if you try to describe it to someone else and I ask that 3rd party what my job is - they won't come nearly close to communicating all that it is. If I write down a detailed job description and place that in a time capsule to be opened in 150,000 years, those that read it may or may not understand it. If I use words such as transportation, meetings, conventions, programs, events, if the audience from 150,000 has no concept of what those words mean, the meaning has been lost. Even if the language of 150,000 from today is based on English, the concept of what the words mean may have been lost. (How does someone who hears the phrase 'please answer the phone' know what 'the phone' is if they don't have one? If in 150,000 years there are no phones and there haven't been for centuries, how does someone know what 'answering the phone' means even if its written?) When you factor in that languages evolve and change over time, English in 150,000 may not even have the word 'telephone' in their vocabulary even if the device still exists. Case in point, the term horseless carriage is not in our everyday vocabulary, although the device is. I dare say if I were to walk up to someone and ask if they own a horseless carriage they may pause for a moment, if not flat out say no. If I ask if they own a car on the other hand...