Sometimes A Great Notion (411)

[Archaeis]

Well, there will be a 13th soon enough with little Tigh being born.

[cameron1]

'Sometimes A Great Notion' sounded like it came from somewhere else, so i looked it up. there's a novel with the same title, written by a Ken Kesey, and tho i haven't read it, someone else summed the book by a quote in it:

"...there is always a sanctuary more, a door that can never be forced whatever the force; a last inviolable stronghold that cannot be taken, whatever the attack. Your vote can be taken, your name, your innards, even your life. But that last stronghold can only be surrendered--and to surrender it for any reason other than love is to surrender love..."

http://www.amazon.com/Sometimes-Grea.../dp/0140045295 the quote is in this page as well as more about the story.

maybe the writers were writing along the themes of this book when they wrote this episode...

[lunarleviathan]

As everyone else has said, this episode was a total mind frak!

If we think right back to the very first episode when the skin jobs first show up, nobody knew about them right? The theory that the skin jobs somehow were created from the ranks of the original (those made on the colonies) Cylons was just taken as fact. It always seemed odd, but there was no alternate explanation. Now there is...

I'm thinking the 7 and the 5 all came from Earth together. At some point they split into two groups. The 7 decided to replicate themselves and build a civilization. The 5 stuck to the original goal and went to the colonies. It explains why the 7 would know about the "final 5", but didn't know specifically who they were.

Also here's another theory: Skin jobs are just cloned humans. So far there is no evidence from Earth that the people living there were Cylons. We only know they built their own metallic, "tin can", Cylons. What if the resurrection technology is just a super advanced form of cloning? Consider Caprica, the spin-off currently in development. Apparently that show tells how the colony-made Cylons came about through experiments in cloning one of the lead characters dead daughter. That would mean a human consciousness and memories being put into an artificial body. The 13th tribe may have been humans at one point who simply developed the same technology, but to a higher level of sophistication and complexity.

Kara is an anomaly. Everything we know about resurrection tells us she would need a resurrection facility close by or she would be lost forever. Let's assume a consciousness can be stored and doesn't need to download right away. (Was this ever mentioned? I think it was.) Kara's new body might have come later. Remember her ovary being taken by the 7? What if someone in the 7, probably Cavil, knew where Earth was? What if he cloned her and then downloaded her into the body? Perhaps my theoretical human cloning would work on other humans from the colonies too (Dee. Roslin, if her cancer kills her.)? Food for thought.

[ajt111]

I can not believe that everyone one is forgetting the opra house dream! I will tell you who the final 5 are; the 5 people who shared the dream:
1. Athina
2. Caprica 6
3. Rozalan
4. Baltar
5. Hera

[lunarleviathan]

There's nothing to suggest that there aren't even more than 12 or 13 Cylons. We assume the 7 Cylons know everything. The revelations that Kara might be a Cylon, and that Earth was populated by Cylons, suggest that they don't have the full picture.

There are 12 Cylons, sure. Who says new Cylons can't be created from humans (maybe Kara)? Who says the skin-jobs didn't all come from Earth and were originally just human clones that broke into two groups (7 and 5)?

At this point, anything can happen. Who is who and where they came from is up in the air. How much certain people and certain Cylons know is also a mystery.

[Morbius]

There's nothing to suggest that there aren't even more than 12 or 13 Cylons. We assume the 7 Cylons know everything. The revelations that Kara might be a Cylon, and that Earth was populated by Cylons, suggest that they don't have the full picture.

There are 12 Cylons, sure. Who says new Cylons can't be created from humans (maybe Kara)? Who says the skin-jobs didn't all come from Earth and were originally just human clones that broke into two groups (7 and 5)?

At this point, anything can happen. Who is who and where they came from is up in the air. How much certain people and certain Cylons know is also a mystery.

2 things.

i have always assumed the 7 don't kow everything, in fact i'm still waiting for a satisfactory answer as to where their incredible infrastructure is that created the toaster/raider/basestar fleet. That took a hell of a lot of metal.

I do not for one second believe Kara to be a cylon in the sense that the 7 are.

Here's the thing, I think the 7 are cheap copies of the 5, as close as they could get to replicating themselves by creating.

isn't it notable that Saul/six can have a child but Saul/ellan did not?

[airrick]

Is it possible that when Kara went to Earth -

Spoiler:

She went back in time and set off the events that led to the destruction of Earth? I mean her fighter looked as if it was massively destroyed.. could it have been seen as an act of war in a time when the human cylons and centurions werent on good terms? Maybe the death prophecy wasnt about bringing everyone to Earth the second time.. maybe it was about when she first found Earth and crashed into it.. that would lead everyone to their doom? Anyone else have any thoughts?

[Dusk]

Ellen is the Final cylon? There's a critical piece still missing from the puzzle that will link the snippets of information we are starting to gather. I have a working theory, especially after Dee took her life (shocking!). But I just need one more episode to put the theory into place.

The Admiral and Roslin are gonna need a padded cell before much longer.

[Esquin]

Could it be possible that there are 13 "Cylons" I mean lets look at this.

12 Cylons, 12 colonies. Now potentially it could be relevant or not. If it is then there is 1 missing, we have 13 colonies after all. Could Kara have some place as the 13th?

[BobBot]

Is it possible that when Kara went to Earth -

Spoiler:

She went back in time and set off the events that led to the destruction of Earth? I mean her fighter looked as if it was massively destroyed.. could it have been seen as an act of war in a time when the human cylons and centurions werent on good terms? Maybe the death prophecy wasnt about bringing everyone to Earth the second time.. maybe it was about when she first found Earth and crashed into it.. that would lead everyone to their doom? Anyone else have any thoughts?

Nothing in the show suggests anything like that could happen. That's a very SciFi idea, and BSG doesn't do time travel, aliens, etc. that shows like Star Trek do. The only Sci Fi elements are robots turning on their masters, and space travel. If your idea turned out to be true, it'd be a huge disappointment and betrayal of everything the show is.

I can not believe that everyone one is forgetting the opra house dream! I will tell you who the final 5 are; the 5 people who shared the dream:
1. Athina
2. Caprica 6
3. Rozalan
4. Baltar
5. Hera

Except that Athena and Caprica 6 are from the 7, Hera is a cylon/human hybrid and, um, we know the final five are Tyrol, Tigh, Ellen, Anders and Tory...

[mr_kennedy]

what i liked

more backstory revealed
adama/tigh scene
lee/d
frak earth
roslin's reaction
baltars cylon detector really worked

what i didnt like

adama/tigh scene
D

ok i have the adama/tigh scene in both because i found it both enjoyable and disturbing really well done by EJO & MH

Could it be possible that there are 13 "Cylons" I mean lets look at this.

12 Cylons, 12 colonies. Now potentially it could be relevant or not. If it is then there is 1 missing, we have 13 colonies after all. Could Kara have some place as the 13th?

i theorized this too but now i am not so sure, i think kara is part of an original cycle, someone already mentioned that she could have been a lord of kobal which and i kind of agree,

and im going with that were all cylons here

Spoiler:

i think zak might be a kobalian lord aswell, i think there (the lords of kobal) cylons from another cycle, maybe the original cycle and the 13th tribe were a tribe of terriorists or something so they split, and the lords of kobal discovered earth say 2 years later and nuked the frak out of it with ellen collaborating with the lords of kobal thats what she meant when she said its all ok they will be reborn

i also think, that the civillian population on kobal dissaproved of this and revolted againts the lords of kobal and thus kobal was nuked

prophecies arent always entirely accurate

[GateofDOOM]

Yes, those two were really annoying lol. And I've just never liked Natasha Eloi.

Did anyone else (re)watch the webisodes on Space at 9? The frakin cut out Gaeta finding the pilots with their throats slashed!

Hmm...did they? I guess I wasn't paying much attention...

'Sometimes A Great Notion' sounded like it came from somewhere else, so i looked it up. there's a novel with the same title, written by a Ken Kesey, and tho i haven't read it, someone else summed the book by a quote in it:

"...there is always a sanctuary more, a door that can never be forced whatever the force; a last inviolable stronghold that cannot be taken, whatever the attack. Your vote can be taken, your name, your innards, even your life. But that last stronghold can only be surrendered--and to surrender it for any reason other than love is to surrender love..."

http://www.amazon.com/Sometimes-Grea.../dp/0140045295 the quote is in this page as well as more about the story.

maybe the writers were writing along the themes of this book when they wrote this episode...

I believe the writers confirmed that they did do this in an interview posted earlier in the thread.

[pbellosom]

At the end of the miniseries, there was a note in Adama's quarters saying "there are only 12 Cylon models."

Did we ever find out were that note came from?

[pbellosom]

I agree...Ellen is just 6 as a grown up. Leaving room for Starbuck to be #7 and Dee to be the final 5th...

I've also been working on the theory that not all the cylons of a certain model look the same. I mean what would happen if you were to give a cylon plastic surgery?

And Kandyse confirmed she's dead for good:
http://scifiwire.com/2009/01/dualla-...ar-episode.php

Didn't similar things happen when Starbuck was "dead for good?"

Humans on Kobal 'stole fire from the gods'(the knowledge of creating life) and created Cylons. Kobal is destroyed because of it. Humans go one way and create the 12 colonies. Cylons go the other way and found Earth. Cylons eventually repeat the mistake of man and also try to create life which leads to Earth's downfall.

So basically, the reason that it keeps happening again and again is because civilisation always reaches the point at which they are capable of creating life and this new life always rebels?

[TheChosen1]

I don't know if we've watched the same episode but it's pretty clear that Ellen is the 5th cylon.

Dee didn't have a flashback and is not a cylon (as much as I wanted her to be one). She just lost it like most of the crew.

Not true.


Ander's did not have a flashback. He just picked up the handle of the guitar and he started to play it and remembered. Tory out of the blue said I remember now, you played for all of us, ie: the final 4. Dee, in the same area of Ander's found the Jack's and she realized, omg, I'm a cylon and was overcomed in that scene where she was on her hands and knee's there with the Jack's in the sand/ground/dirt. On the same note, When Apollo goes through dee's stuff that was in a box he find's the Jack's, which was dee's in this incarnation. Dee is a cylon, so is ellen, so Kara. It really looks like they are all cylon's its shaping up, but.................... we will see what develops.