The Covid19 thread

[Annoyed]

So, the people don't count if they live in a city?

Tyranny?
You mean you want to alter the balance so they have less of a voice than rural / suburban folks.
This is in direct contradiction to your own constitution.

Err, because the people, the actual PEOPLE want to keep him?
Let me tell you something, as you are so fond of telling me that because I don't live in the US I should not comment. Cuomo, despite all his failings is being seen GLOBALLY as a leader who has had to make the tough decisions to keep your state safe and get you guys out of the pit you find yourself in now. You want to hang him? Join one of the moronic militia's that turn up armed with guns and ignore the social distancing rules in your precious "red states" based on what your "fake news" media that you watch tells you.
I've tried to bridge the divide, I've done it here and in PM's but you seem incapable of seeing that, so what am I supposed to do?
I could put you on ignore, but that stops the conversation and I don't agree with that stance, but damn you frustrate the hell out of me, not because you have a different opinion, but you are utterly unwilling to even compromise on position.
Years ago Magi and I had a conversation about guns, and as he is in rural PA, he made the case that he needed a semi auto for pest control, I argued against anyone needing them. In the end, after several pages, I agreed with his need for such a weapon because it served a purpose -for him-
All I am asking is for you to keep a somewhat open mind, be willing to see both sides, not just one.
Is that really too much to ask for?

Not by choice though, was it?
You had MONTHS of time to address this issue, but if you look at raw footage and tweets by people they have downplayed and frankly ignored the issue. The CARE act was a bi-partisan response, not done by the WH, but by your congress, so who exactly should you be thanking?
Yes congress is part of the federal government, but who is in charge of it right now? You like what they have done but you bemoan who is in charge. The WH could have done so much more to protect it's citizens, but it did not, so who failed here?

And exactly WHO is leading that charge for a independent inquiry into the failings of "the system" to know how and why this virus became an issue? Frigging Australia, picking a political fight with it's largest trading partner because it's the right thing to do for the safety of all. We are getting SLAMMED by Chinese press, they are saying we are being stupid and hostile towards them, they are even threatening us with "potential consequences" in militaristic tones.
So, don't tell me that your federal government has been "effective", it's one rolling ball of stupid. Weather you like it or not, "the west" looks to the US for guidance, and in this case it has failed, not just locally, but globally.

You should know that I did respond to this this morning, but the response has vanished. Why this post didn't meet a similar fate, I don't know.

[Gatefan1976]

Do it in a PM then.
You and I can spat all we want there.
I have utterly no issues with a good discussion, or even an argument. To my mind they encourage thinking, and thinking is never a bad thing.

[SoulReaver]

belongs in bonehead thread too - top 5 easy

Woman Cuts A Hole In Her Face Mask As It 'Makes It Easier To Breathe'

(also makes it easier to drink bleach)

[Annoyed]

belongs in bonehead thread too - top 5 easy

(also makes it easier to drink bleach)

The whole mask thing belongs in the bonehead thread. Homemade masks, which are all any "normal" person can get their hands on these days are only about 18% effective, compared to the 80%+ effectiveness of N95 and professionally made medical masks.

And, of, as of about March 2, the CDC recommended that "normal" folks NOT buy masks, as they are not effective.

Of course, that was just the govt. lying through its teeth, but it was still published.

[SoulReaver]

The whole mask thing belongs in the bonehead thread

you sure set low standards for that thread
no wonder it sucks

Covid's aerosolization capabilities are limited (not as airborne as the flu)

it spreads mainly through small droplets that eventually fall to the ground & are readily blocked by anything that doesn't look like a kitchen sieve

in other words any makeshift mask gives decent protection & is way better than nothing

[SGalisa]

Sorry about the length... gotta break this into 2 parts.

As for returning to work...
Lots of people I've talked with would vote for those people who are super paranoid about working at the office in future months, then let those people work at home, and let the rest of us work in the office. Problem solved. People who have to work in other jobs, where they have to be in the building to process manufacturing, etc., well, they take whatever precautions necessary to avoid breathing in someone else's "germs"...

'Fraid it doesn't work that way. The employee doesn't make the choice about whether to work at home or not. The employer does. And it doesn't matter if the job can be done from home or not.

Well duh, I *know* that. Based on Employer / employee confidentiality agreements.

BTW, I have worked in large companies and smaller businesses, where I was able (given permission from the BOSS) to bring work home. One was overtime. The other was salary based (no OT). I didn't mind either, but hated dragging the paper copies of the work back and forth. Latest endeavor would have been done entirely via email, web links and electronic... NO PAPER, unless printed out for personal (easier reading) preference. That was a 2 to 3 week STAY-AT-HOME effort, until we got informed to drop everything, and leave it on our desk... Then, the very next workday, discovered we were suddenly being *unemployed* the next week (due to COVID-19), instead! All that "at Home" PREP work for nothing.

As for this COVID-19 potentially being "seasonal", that is, if someone gets sick with it in the future months, there needs to be a system set in place if that person gets sent home to stay on short-term disability (2 weeks or more), since they would not want to dig into any company paid sick days, just in case they end up getting sick with something else that keeps them out for a day or two... here and there.

As far as your ideas for using disability or something for re-infections won't work for most.

Then change the system, but obviously according to the type of job it might be....

The rule is indeed simple. If your company opens up for business, you, as the employee, are expected to show up for work unless your employer has explicitly told you otherwise (as is the case for me and my company's policies at the moment).

ummmm. Really? I *know* this. You're both missing the POINT. Please see again...

Then change the system, but obviously according to the type of job it might be. Just like the rest of us have to adapt to using electronic payments, instead of paper/coin cash, change the work environments to keep up with the changing times. Otherwise, die a sudden financial death for everyone... business owners and employees.

On premises workers cannot obviously work from home... that is a given. But many creative designers, customer service reps, and printed info workers using electronic programs, they CAN work from home. Lots of jobs already have this very system, especially for bad weather days and parents or guardians who have to care for sick or vacationing kids on the home front.

Errmm... nope, not what "working-from-home" is for.

You try combining working from home, with a toddler running around or a sick kid. Or someone who have to care for. That's an impossible job.

What happens now, is literally driving many of colleagues who are parents up the walls.

(Generic) You folks *are* behind the times...
Well, maybe that's the way it exists in *your* world and most other companies, but it's been done and tried for about 15 years where I was. It works nicely, too, especially for the parents who can't get a babysitter and HAVE to stay home during those times.

During this COVID-19 shut-down, there were reports of *TPTB* looking at how companies could accomplish "WORK AT HOME" scenarios, and keep more people HOME than in the office for various reasons... partly to keep vehicles OFF the roads, thus less CARBON output into the atmosphere. This was a BIG news issue early into April 2020.

It was a *TPTB* GREEN NEW DEAL (freebie, experimental) *test* drive...
Some of the most prominent PTB involved with that admitted to it on the news!


When India's smoggy atmosphere cleared up, and the people could finally see the mountains, news reports came out about how the rest of our earthly world could CHANGE work tactics, and adjust the system to "WORK AT HOME"... that included increasing power to the internet grids, providing workers with the materials they would NEED to actually WORK at HOME, etc.

Maybe where I worked was more *family* friendly to their workers who didn't want to gobble up their personal time to sit at home with a sick child. Same issue applies when their kids get school cancelled due to delayed school hours from bad weather, and mom or dad has to drag them off to work, until they can get their work gathered up to "WORK AT HOME"... YES, this has happened... lots of times for at least the past 5 years that I know of. More people were taking advantage of this leniency in the company "rules".

Helps to (also) have nice bosses and nice HR/higher up folks. IF the option was available to do so----Would you want to WASTE your precious personal time OFF times to "babysit" or be stuck at home for some unplanned house repair emergency, car break-down/issue, when it's going to dig into more time OFF than you are given by the company? People want their vacation/sick time for themselves... NOT for dedicating it to someone else or for some other issue.

Even On-The-Road Teachers who travel and get stuck at airports for 5+ hour layovers, bring their work with them to use that time wisely, than sit there and stare at space during that time. They don't HAVE to do that, but because they are "salary" they DO it. Otherwise, it digs into their swim/recreation time at their hotel stays. Some of them also have long distance drives to work, and have (Pre)arranged schedules to "WORK AT HOME" different days of the week to save on gas/mileage.

Even (our) IT / web tech help folks have their support systems set up AT HOME, so they are available on weekends and holidays. Sort of like a medical office's OUTSOURCE receptionist system. Except the tech person actually WORKS for that company and has "hands on" knowledge access to fixing *customer service* problems or inquiries, while at home, as well as during the week, too.

These systems DO work. It's just based on how flexible and willing the employer will be with their employees. Or, just maybe where I worked is just *ahead of the times* , and has worked these scenarios out in REAL time. It DOES work. Kids at home (will) need to be disciplined or learn to let mom/dad/whoever work, and NOT disturb when on work-related phone calls. Same issue applies when the kids are waiting in their parents/guardians "work space" or office, while waiting to go home, due to being sick or school suddenly closed.

Where I was, this system HAS worked. Not always flawlessly, but you'd be surprised how amazingly *flexible* the other co-workers have been... same flexibility has applied with those workers who bring their dogs to work to either stay all day, due to doggy care or waiting for appointments, or just visit (as a form of dog therapy for coworkers... this helps the dogs too---- as they usually get more doggy-time attention and gain a larger, extended family, as a result). Only the more well behaved ones are given permission to come back and visit more often...

[SGalisa]

Update to shopping...
Seemed when I went thru the grocery store that while everyone in there was wearing some sort of facial mask/covering, most were acting more like zombies... just going thru the motions of shopping --in and out-- with sometimes stopping to let someone else go thru the aisle first or politely wait til they could enter.

The sad part was seeing all those facial masks and thinking of it as TAPE over everyone's mouth. No one spoke unless spoken to, which was usually if they needed help or at the cranky self-checkout registers.

They're nothing like tape. Maybe people simply don't want to spend too much time out in the open, fearing there might be a higher risk of infection should they do so.

I am *aware* the facial coverings are NOT tape. I'm just saying it's like looking at people who have been silenced from speaking to each other. BIG Difference.

When the request first went out to "social distance" and wear a face mask/covering, the whole situation seemed surreal. Shopping was no longer enjoyable, but surreal and almost like living in an alternate reality... like in a sci-fi movie or book experience. THAT is what my initial impression was.

Listen to the song, the "SOUNDS of Silence" by Simon and Garfunkel. Watch the video on you-tube, if you can. Same or similar creepy feeling / vibes generated from that song into current day life... watching shoppers walking in the aisles like (see partial lyrics in spoiler quote below)

Spoiler:

". . .In restless dreams I walked alone
Narrow streets of cobblestone...

People talking without speaking
People hearing without listening
. . .
And no one dared
Disturb the sound of silence

. . .Silence, like a cancer, grows
Hear my words that I might teach you
Take my arms that I might reach you. . .

And the sign flashed out its warning
In the words that it was forming
And the sign said, 'The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls'
And whispered in the sounds of silence..."

"SOUNDS of Silence" performed by Simon and Garfunkel.
(Lyrics) Composer: Paul Simon
Song was released in 1964

Substitute subway walls for grocery store walls, and anywhere else these signs of wearing a FACE Mask / covering exist. People's faces are *silenced*... no nose, no mouth... just eyes staring into the world... (e)motionless.

Yes, the phrases in the quoted song might be taken out of context, but the principle idea is the same to illustrate what I am trying to explain here. People *spoke* without speaking... their expressions spoke volumes thru their facial masks and coverings... just like having tape covered over someone's mouth. Maybe the world doesn't see it this way, but I did. It was both sad and almost creepy. Some of my coworkers have also seen it this way, too. So, it's not just me seeing this being surreal. It goes beyond the actual "health" aspects and into the psychological realm(s).

Yes, the damn thing scares the living daylights out of me.
I am, I think, a rather healthy person but I don't know how my immune system would react to it, so instead of finding out, I'd rather not.

I'm not gonna wait around in my bubble for that shot to come around in the next year or so, but I am going to do my damnest to protect myself and the people I care about, and if that means staying home for as long as it takes, then so be it.

My best friend is an at-risk person so yeah... whatever precaution I can take.

*Common sense* tactics should be put into active operation in dealing with this virus and situations thereof. I've been saying that all along. No short-cuts. Everyone could be a potential virus "carrier". Even people with antibodies, the medical world has no idea how that works in reality against people who still have not had this virus yet. But don't get overly paranoid, either... when *your* time is up/comes, your toast anyway.

If people don't get this virus now, they may end up getting it from the vaccines that we keep getting promised for.

AND not to scare you (or anyone else here), but prep (generic) you for the unexpected... I've read that some of the most healthy people end up with the worst symptoms to this COVID-19 virus. Once their T-cells lose the battle in fighting this virus, they end up sicker than those who merely have milder cases of the virus. That's when the cytokine storm takes over, and a battle of life and death occur in a race against time.

So, how *exposed* to germs should we be...? And to which types...? There are discussions on the internet about building up one's immunity, by slow exposure. But what determines "slow exposure" if people go out to parks and beaches, etc., where many other people want to be, at the same time?

[VampyreWraith]

So apparently building bioswales is considered essential in NYC right now, and all the guys working on one of the ones by my house are standing there no more than 2ft from one another with no masks. Maybe they've all been tested and know they don't have it, I don't know.

[SGalisa]

So apparently building bioswales is considered essential in NYC right now, and all the guys working on one of the ones by my house are standing there no more than 2ft from one another with no masks. Maybe they've all been tested and know they don't have it, I don't know.

Those bioswales have been GREEN NEW DEAL *approved*...
Plus, if done properly, some of them can also be very beautiful in landscaping.

You'll probably be happier after the end results are finished. Supposedly, they are to prevent flooding the city sewers / piping system. Workers are probably part of the *construction* workforce industry. Of course it depends on who is paying them, too... employed by State or private.

[Annoyed]

Those bioswales have been GREEN NEW DEAL *approved*...
Plus, if done properly, some of them can also be very beautiful in landscaping.

You'll probably be happier after the end results are finished. Supposedly, they are to prevent flooding the city sewers / piping system. Workers are probably part of the *construction* workforce industry. Of course it depends on who is paying them, too... employed by State or private.

More importantly, how politically powerful their union is....

[Annoyed]

When the request first went out to "social distance" and wear a face mask/covering, the whole situation seemed surreal. Shopping was no longer enjoyable, but surreal and almost like living in an alternate reality... like in a sci-fi movie or book experience. THAT is what my initial impression was.

Wait a minute... Shopping was enjoyable at any time in history?

Seriously, once the shortages were taken care of, when you do have to go shopping, it has been far less miserable an experience than I can remember.

[aretood2]

More importantly, how politically powerful their union is....

I have poured Hot Chocolate into a mug with my Union Initials in it in honor of this post.

My mom works in a food processing plant where they have implemented strict social distancing policies. I have an aunt who works at another plant that has not done so. Guess which one is unionized? In case you are having trouble, my Mom's plant is unionized. If anything the unions demand safeties for their employees.

[Falcon Horus]

the epidemic would also be very useful as an excuse for the current government to postpone next election (possibly sine die)

Apparently many hoops need to be jumped through before that can happen...

So apparently building bioswales...

A what now?

Also, workers are quite literally people who care little about safety. My sister has daily contact (before corona) with work people, builders and the like. They are required to wear safety equipment. When they're wearing it, they usually are not wearing it correctly or they haven't actually attached themselves to something solid that would stop them falling. Or they have it lying around close by... It's ridiculous.

Wait a minute... Shopping was enjoyable at any time in history?

LOL! My thoughts exactly.

[VampyreWraith]

Apparently many hoops need to be jumped through before that can happen...



A what now?

Also, workers are quite literally people who care little about safety. My sister has daily contact (before corona) with work people, builders and the like. They are required to wear safety equipment. When they're wearing it, they usually are not wearing it correctly or they haven't actually attached themselves to something solid that would stop them falling. Or they have it lying around close by... It's ridiculous.



LOL! My thoughts exactly.

https://www.grownyc.org/openspace/gr...lkit/bioswales

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/ddc/resour...bioswales.page


I don't really have anything against bioswales or rain gardens in general, it's more about the timing and lack of social distancing practiced the the workers.

Yeah, some of those workers really don't seem to care much about safety. The ones working on the bioswale by me had masks/face coverings for some of the time they were working, but then they took them off. At one point they were all just standing there in a semicircle right next to each other with no masks looking the hole in the ground talking. I guess they found the masks annoying so they took them off.

[SoulReaver]

Apparently many hoops need to be jumped through before that can happen...

or none: just declare martial law

besides I just don't see this 239+ lbs president "jumping" through even 1 hoop