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    Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
    That's right, he did not surrender after the first, he and the Imperial command -knew- what nukes could do, but still they did not capitulate, so why would a second bomb do it? Even as the second one was dropped, Imperial command was -still not willing to surrender-
    So, what else was going on that could have made Japan surrender?
    Think about that, do some investigation, and get back to me, ok?


    Would there have been one?
    (do your research assignment first)
    I'll even use a source you won't instantly throw out. This is just a short summary.

    Why did the U.S. do it?
    American scientists working on the Manhattan Project had successfully tested a working atomic bomb in July of 1945, after the surrender of Nazi Germany in May.
    Truman had tasked a committee of advisers, chaired by Secretary of War Henry Stimson, to deliberate whether to use the atomic bomb on Japan.
    Sam Rushay, the Supervisory Archivist at the Harry S. Truman Presidential Library in Independence, Missouri, told CNN: "At the time, there was a wide consensus in support of the decision to strike among the members of the committee. Stimson was very adamant that the bomb be used."
    Charles Maier, a professor of history at Harvard University, said that while it was possible for Truman to have made another decision, he said "It would have been hard to justify to the American public why he prolonged the war when this weapon was available."
    "It seemed to offer a potentially magical solution that would spare a lot of pain," he told CNN.
    Maier, who teaches a course on World War II, said Japan was not ready to surrender unconditionally and there was a concern that a weapons demonstration would have not done the job. Such a demonstration would have detonated a nuclear weapon in a non-inhabited but observable area to compel Japan to surrender, an approach that was favored by a group of scientists and Assistant Secretary of War John McCloy, according to Rushay.
    He added that Truman and his military advisers feared a "very costly invasion" of Japan.
    "The recent experience in the battles in Iwo Jima and Okinawa was very costly in terms of U.S. and Japanese casualties, despite the destruction of the Japanese air force and navy," Rushay said. "There was a widespread belief among American military planners that the Japanese would fight to the last man."
    Maier said, "Suicide attacks are fairly common today, [but] at the time, the Japanese use of suicidal Kamikaze attacks had made a strong psychological impact on U.S. military decision-makers who reckoned that the whole country would be mobilized to defend the home islands."
    "The U.S. military was unwilling to say it could win the war without the bomb," he added.
    Maier said some historians have speculated that the possibility of the Soviet Union's entry into the war helped spur the decision to bring the war to a quick end by using the bomb.
    Although only hinted at in that article, Hirohito, (or perhaps any Japanese emperor for all I know) had an ability to trigger suicidal fanaticism among his subjects. How many Japanese pilots committed suicide as Kamikazes? He inspired a religious-level fervor. What would happen if he used that ability to turn the entire civilian population of Japan?

    Comment


      Originally posted by garhkal View Post
      well if i am in my fat barstard persona.. then baby is the other, other, other white meat! I'm higher than yeu on the food chain, get in my belly! I want my baby, baby, baby back ribs!
      You worry me
      sigpic

      Comment


        Originally posted by Annoyed View Post
        I'll even use a source you won't instantly throw out. This is just a short summary.
        I don't "throw your sources out" right away Annoyed, I question them -after- I read them, I don't just dismiss them because they lean left or right, IF I dismiss them, it's because they have a history of being full of crap.
        With this source, I will point out that it only deals with what -America- thought, which was not the question I asked you.

        Although only hinted at in that article, Hirohito, (or perhaps any Japanese emperor for all I know) had an ability to trigger suicidal fanaticism among his subjects. How many Japanese pilots committed suicide as Kamikazes? He inspired a religious-level fervor. What would happen if he used that ability to turn the entire civilian population of Japan?
        Yes, the Emperor was a god king, a modern Pharaoh, the people would have done anything and willingly died for him, you are quite right on why that motivated the fear in America of a costly ground war, and WHY America chose to use the bomb on people rather than a test demonstration. The important thing here is -it did not work-, America would have had to glass Japan to win via nuclear weapons or face this feared land war. Meanwhile, as Tood pointed out, Russia declared war on Japan and while the US and the rest of the Allies were holding war crimes trials, Russia was slaughtering every German they could lay their hands on. Japan's capitulation was not based on the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they were, as you point out, willing to die, but -their- fear of having to either surrender to America, or be slaughtered by the Russians. One let their god king -live-, and even had proven while they were prepared to -interfere- with their enemies after surrender, they left the countries somewhat autonomous. Russia would do no such thing.

        What you need to understand here Annoyed is that you are looking at this from an -American- perspective, not a Japanese perspective.
        sigpic
        ALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.
        A lie is just a truth that hasn't gone through conversion therapy yet
        The truth isn't the truth

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          Well, of course I'm looking at it from a U.S. perspective.

          As to the cause of Japan's surrender,
          8/6/45 - Hiroshima
          8/8/45 - Soviet Union declares war on Japan
          8/9/45 - Nagasaki
          8/15/45 - Japan announces their surrender.

          I know, there are folks that will claim it was the Soviet's action that changed their mind, but think about it.
          The Soviets were badly weakened and didn't present anywhere near the threat to Japan that the U.S. was.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Annoyed View Post
            Well, of course I'm looking at it from a U.S. perspective.
            Which is why you do not learn.
            As to the cause of Japan's surrender,
            8/6/45 - Hiroshima
            8/8/45 - Soviet Union declares war on Japan
            8/9/45 - Nagasaki
            8/15/45 - Japan announces their surrender.
            So, 2 nukes and neither prompted a surrender, but they are what caused the surrender.
            riiiiigggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhtttttttttt................

            I know, there are folks that will claim it was the Soviet's action that changed their mind, but think about it.
            The Soviets were badly weakened and didn't present anywhere near the threat to Japan that the U.S. was.
            I have thought about it, I have thought about it from the American POV, the Russian POV and the Japanese POV. America was no "threat", it was an enemy that the Japanese would die to the last man, woman and child to defeat, accepting -horrific- losses via nuclear arms to do it. The reason the US dropped the bombs was because it was -afraid- of losing people in a ground war with an enemy that would never surrender, you were nothing more than a challenge to be overcome, they did not fear you, or your weapons in the slightest. Russia however, was an foe that did not care about it's people either, it would have happily spilled the blood of all it's soldiers to kill them. Basically, they were just as nuts as the Japanese, and they saw that.

            As for Russia being so weak, wow, you really think they were that weak, so weak that they were the only other power to be declared a superpower at the time, along with the USA.
            sigpic
            ALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.
            A lie is just a truth that hasn't gone through conversion therapy yet
            The truth isn't the truth

            Comment


              Hitler didn't learn from his predecessor's mistakes either...otherwise he wouldn't've made the same mistake the kaiser did in opening a 2-front war

              Comment


                Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
                They did apologise to us, eventually.
                Ausies, chineese, and many of the asian nations sure. Not to the US from what i read on the subject..

                Originally posted by pookey View Post
                You worry me
                I thought everyone around here liked Austin powers quotes!



                And in other news, the House shot DOWN that internet bill that would have let ISP companies sell your browsing data, even your health search info.. GOOOD!!!!

                Comment


                  Originally posted by mad_gater View Post
                  one of the principles of just warfare is to never intentionally target non-combatants (intent being the keyword...oftentimes in the course of even conventional warfare unintentional collateral damage does happen...which is also why one should never be so quick to declare war either)
                  Dresden was far from unintentional collateral damage.

                  The attack was planned and purposefully executed, dropping over 700,000 phosphorous bombs on a sleeping city where thousands of refugees had flocked together, fleeing from the Russians. And where wounded soldiers were being treated.

                  Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
                  Oh, as for people forgetting Japan was the aggressor, not out here Tood, WW2 and the things the Japanese did to our troops (and we did to theirs), created a generational hatred (genuine hatred) of all things Asian that's only dying off now (mostly)
                  Reminds me how we have come to the point where we say, "Look at the Germans. They're doing alright. Merkel, leader of the free world.", as opposed to referring to them in a less than friendly way, or joking about the Germans attacked whenever there's a distant rumble which can't immediately be explained.

                  Originally posted by garhkal View Post
                  Plus to this DAY, i don't think Japan has EVER apologized to anyone for what they did. Not the Thousands of women they enslaved to be sex workers for their military. Not to the POWs they massively inhumanely treated. Compare that to germany who has always apologized for what was done..
                  How many times has the US issued apologies for things they were involved in?

                  Excluding Hiroshima and Nagasaki since Japan does not expect an apology for that, nor has Japan apologized for Pearl Harbor, except for this little tidbit when Shinzo Abe visited the Arizona Memorial (which my sister thought was a restaurant as it briefly appears in the Hawaii Five-O opening sequence -- a pillow was therefor thrown into her direction with a well-worded "DUMB-ASS, that's the Arizona memorial. You can actually see the ship underneath still."):

                  "I offer my sincere and everlasting condolences" for the attacks by the Imperial Japanese Fleet on Dec. 7, 1941, that killed more than 2,400 Americans, Abe said, but he did not apologize.

                  After the war, "when Japan was in ruins, it was the U.S. and its good people who sent us food to eat and clothes to wear," Abe said. "We will never forget what you did for us. On behalf of the Japanese people, I extend my heartfelt gratitude to the United States and the world for the tolerance extended to Japan."


                  Here are 5 times the US apologies for something they were wrong in doing or should have thought twice before doing:

                  Five Times the United States Officially Apologized

                  And here's a list of Japans remorses and formal apologies.

                  Originally posted by Annoyed View Post
                  Although only hinted at in that article, Hirohito, (or perhaps any Japanese emperor for all I know) had an ability to trigger suicidal fanaticism among his subjects. How many Japanese pilots committed suicide as Kamikazes? He inspired a religious-level fervor. What would happen if he used that ability to turn the entire civilian population of Japan?
                  You just described the Japanese society as it has been for thousand of years.

                  Failure brings shame. Better be dead, than bring shame to the family name.
                  Isn't Japan the land where Samourai committed suicide? Harakiri?

                  Originally posted by Annoyed View Post
                  Well, of course I'm looking at it from a U.S. perspective.

                  As to the cause of Japan's surrender,
                  8/6/45 - Hiroshima
                  8/8/45 - Soviet Union declares war on Japan
                  8/9/45 - Nagasaki
                  8/15/45 - Japan announces their surrender.

                  I know, there are folks that will claim it was the Soviet's action that changed their mind, but think about it.
                  The Soviets were badly weakened and didn't present anywhere near the threat to Japan that the U.S. was.
                  The above, a prime example of a victor writing the history book.

                  Originally posted by garhkal View Post
                  And in other news, the House shot DOWN that internet bill that would have let ISP companies sell your browsing data, even your health search info.. GOOOD!!!!
                  I hate to break it to you, but it passed the House --> 215 to 205 votes.

                  Congressional Republicans just voted to let ISPs sell your browsing history to advertisers
                  Heightmeyer's Lemming -- still the coolest Lemming of the forum

                  Proper Stargate Rewatch -- season 10 of SG-1

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Annoyed View Post

                    Although only hinted at in that article, Hirohito, Trump (or perhaps any Japanese emperor American toddler for all I know) had an ability to trigger suicidal fanaticism among his subjects. How many Japanese pilots committed suicide as Kamikazes? He inspired a religious-level fervor. What would happen if he used that ability to turn the entire civilian population of Japan America?
                    I fixed that for you. Your fears seem to be based on what is happening in your own country. But you're turning them outwards toward a country that is not a threat to you. The Japanese Emperor, Akihito has a mostly ceremonial role, and is a marine biologist.. Maybe that's it. The current US Administration does fear science...

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Pharaoh Hamenthotep View Post
                      I fixed that for you. Your fears seem to be based on what is happening in your own country. But you're turning them outwards toward a country that is not a threat to you. The Japanese Emperor, Akihito has a mostly ceremonial role, and is a marine biologist.. Maybe that's it. The current US Administration does fear science...
                      You can stick your fingers in your ears and wear as many blindfolds as you want, but we're discussing history here.
                      I'm not talking current events, I'm discussing WWII which was about 75 years ago.

                      Comment


                        And I'm saying you're complaining about something from 75 years ago that is happening right now. In your country. Where you live.

                        You're the one who is blindfolded, with your fingers lodged firmly in your ears.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Pharaoh Hamenthotep View Post
                          The Japanese Emperor, Akihito has a mostly ceremonial role, and is a marine biologist..
                          Cool!
                          I did not know that.

                          I do know Angela Merkel has a PhD in Physics.
                          Heightmeyer's Lemming -- still the coolest Lemming of the forum

                          Proper Stargate Rewatch -- season 10 of SG-1

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Falcon Horus View Post
                            Cool!
                            I did not know that.
                            Just like his father before him

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Pharaoh Hamenthotep View Post
                              And I'm saying you're complaining about something from 75 years ago that is happening right now. In your country. Where you live.

                              You're the one who is blindfolded, with your fingers lodged firmly in your ears.
                              I'm not complaining about anything. I was discussing why the US chose to use nukes to end WWII, and why I think were justified in doing so.

                              Comment


                                North-Korea is pleased you think that way.
                                Heightmeyer's Lemming -- still the coolest Lemming of the forum

                                Proper Stargate Rewatch -- season 10 of SG-1

                                Comment

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