Discussion about hot topics trending today

[aretood2]

That's all part of this "do as you please generation"

You have to shrug your shoulders and live with it.

No one takes personal responsibility for their actions and a million social workers will defend the parents actions.

And at the same time they'll charge responsible parents for child abuse for giving their kids a relatively light spank on the bum.

But the men and women who are police are also people and citizens. And they have the right to determine who they work for. If the setup there is anything like the way they handle event security here, the event operator hires the off-duty police directly, in order to provide for their event. The police officers choose to accept after hours employment from the event operator. These officers simply chose not to accept employment from an organization which supported (by allowing the protest kneel-down) anti-police viewpoints. As far as I'm concerned, they are entirely within their rights to do so.

That would be okay because they'd be working as civilian security employees and not police officers. As long as they would not be wearing Police uniforms or their police badges if they were to take the job and if they would be operating as non-police officers. At that point they have the right to refuse to work for them. But if they are getting their pay and orders from an actual police force they have no right to decide to revoke protection for political reasons.

Oh, and one minor point.

You are quite correct there should not be any sort of secret police, or political police in this country. However, I rather strongly suspect that law enforcement is occasionally used for political ends, silencing opponents, and the like, as well as there being a hidden command structure operating beneath the surface.

The IRS targeting Conservative/Tea Party groups for selective enforcement of tax law at the direction of the administration ought to be proof enough that that kind of activity goes on. I suspect that in reality, such things happen at lower levels hidden & unseen from the public eye.

Then you agree? Police are being used to over police black communities and tend to be more aggressive with black people than others and do violate civil liberties?

[Annoyed]

Then you agree? Police are being used to over police black communities and tend to be more aggressive with black people than others and do violate civil liberties?

Absolutely, the police, taken as a whole, routinely misuse and overextend their authority, with the full agreement and cooperation of the lawmakers who write the laws they enforce. Asset forfeiture without conviction is a prime example of this. But I don't think, looking at the police as a whole, that this behavior is racially motivated or biased. They're just overreaching as a matter of policy.

I have no doubt that many black communities do see an abundance of police in their neighborhoods. Might this be because the crime rate in these neighborhoods is higher than other areas in the region? That they are there to try to lower the crime rate in these areas? This isn't bias against any specific race, it's bias against criminal behavior. Since they are tasked with controlling crime, I have no problem with that. It's the same thing you see when a specific intersection or stretch of highway has a higher than normal accident rate because people tend to ignore speed limits/stop signs and such. You can expect a higher patrol car presence because the police are trying to get people to obey the traffic laws. That's not discrimination, that's doing their job.

There real police/race problem is that there are indeed individual officers who aren't exactly unbiased when it comes to matters of race and the treatment of minorities. There have been far too many instances of unjustified police shootings and situations such as where the suspect was tossed into a paddy wagon and bounced around like an egg till his neck was broken (I think that was the fatal injury in that case)

That's a completely different problem than institutionalized racism. How do you spot these bad apples and remove them from the force before they show their colors?

[aretood2]

Absolutely, the police, taken as a whole, routinely misuse and overextend their authority, with the full agreement and cooperation of the lawmakers who write the laws they enforce. Asset forfeiture without conviction is a prime example of this. But I don't think, looking at the police as a whole, that this behavior is racially motivated or biased. They're just overreaching as a matter of policy.

I don't entirely disagree with you. I just don't believe the string pulling is as clear cut as that. It's more of a culture of security over freedom that has infected this country since the 1920's and now thanks to the internet it is being seen and widely publicized for what it is. Long dead are the Americans who used to say "Give me liberty or give me death" and now we all say "Take my freedoms, just find those terrorists/Criminals and make me feel safe!". We've become a country of wusses who get scared by our own shadows into giving up rights bit by bit in the name of safety and security. I know Womble likes to day the dead rarely exercise any rights. But the enslaved have that in common too. And for Israel, that may be fine, but for the US since when did that become OK?

I have no doubt that many black communities do see an abundance of police in their neighborhoods. Might this be because the crime rate in these neighborhoods is higher than other areas in the region? That they are there to try to lower the crime rate in these areas? This isn't bias against any specific race, it's bias against criminal behavior. Since they are tasked with controlling crime, I have no problem with that. It's the same thing you see when a specific intersection or stretch of highway has a higher than normal accident rate because people tend to ignore speed limits/stop signs and such. You can expect a higher patrol car presence because the police are trying to get people to obey the traffic laws. That's not discrimination, that's doing their job.

While you do have somewhat of a point there's one problem. Most arrests and raids are done for non-violent drug related crimes. And data shows that white people use drugs and commit these same nonviolent crimes at just the same rates. So why don't we see suburbia getting stormed by stop and frisk policies? You take out those nonviolent crimes and all of a sudden crime rates in black communities aren't that much higher than other communities (when you take population into account). What black people are seeing is that they are getting in trouble for XYZ but others are not. It's as if they were being targeted.

Take that into account, and can you see why black people might see other events through a different lens? They are predisposed to be that much more cynical and suspicious of police officers and may in turn not want to work with them which then allows more violent and harmful crime to fester. If you really cared about black on black crime, getting rid of this disparity is step one to solving it. It's all connected, you know.

There real police/race problem is that there are indeed individual officers who aren't exactly unbiased when it comes to matters of race and the treatment of minorities. There have been far too many instances of unjustified police shootings and situations such as where the suspect was tossed into a paddy wagon and bounced around like an egg till his neck was broken (I think that was the fatal injury in that case)

And then add that to the above mentioned lens. It's easy to start to feel under siege, like if your life didn't matter.

That's a completely different problem than institutionalized racism. How do you spot these bad apples and remove them from the force before they show their colors?

You can't always spot them. As for the "racist" cops, the best you can do is show that any such acts will be punished and not tolerated. Right now that's not the case. Right now a police officer who arrests you because he didn't like your attitude will be subject to a 6-12 month investigation. And if you're lucky that will be followed by a 3 month grand jury deliberation. And if you are a lottery winner, that will lead to a trial scheduled 1-2 years after the grand jury. And if God has mercy on your soul and works a miracle and the cop is convicted, the Judge will give him a slap on the wrist.

Meanwhile if a person kidnaps you within hours they'll be charged with no grand jury, and the grand jury will take only a week, if not less, to indict if it is called. A trial date will be set within a few months of the arrest if not earlier. And the inevitable conviction will be followed by the harshest sentence.

To be honest, I'm more concerned about general police misconduct and not the racism. You can't have racist policies if the police are unable to overstep their bounds and break the law. Or at least it would be extremely hard to do so. Then there's the way police are recruited. Recruitment tends to target those who are more aggressive and adrenaline junkies as opposed to people who do really want to protect and serve. Then the tests aren't designed to weed out said aggressive adrenaline junkies.

Training programs should also be tightly regulated. There are freelance training programs that feed cops the idea of being "the warrior" cop. They make them trigger happy and forgo deescalation. These things do have an impact on police officers and makes them think that the only option is to escalate and use overwhelming force. Some departments even approve and offer such programs. It's gotten so bad that cops can't recognize a guy who is severely autistic playing with a toy. Now imagine what an aggressive adrenaline junky's reaction to such a situation would be? "Oops, it was a mistake, the gun just went off" or "I was actually targeting the white guy, not that black guy with his hands up laying on the ground".

The impunity that police enjoy also attracts these "race warrior" cops who see it as a chance to put the <insert race/ethnicity> man in his place. I've interacted with some pretty nice cops in my life, and you can tell that they do what they do because they want to protect and serve. But then there are others who...well...if you don't say "sir" enough they'll start escalating things rather quickly. Actually punish police, criminally, when they do criminal things. A false arrest is kidnapping. unprovoked physical force is assault and battery with a deadly weapon, since they always have a gun. Detaining someone without cause is no different than me keeping you locked up in your house by force.

[Annoyed]

I don't entirely disagree with you. I just don't believe the string pulling is as clear cut as that. It's more of a culture of security over freedom that has infected this country since the 1920's and now thanks to the internet it is being seen and widely publicized for what it is. Long dead are the Americans who used to say "Give me liberty or give me death" and now we all say "Take my freedoms, just find those terrorists/Criminals and make me feel safe!". We've become a country of wusses who get scared by our own shadows into giving up rights bit by bit in the name of safety and security.

Regarding the giving up of rights for security, absolutely correct. Nothing else to say on that topic. But I'm certain there is a fair bit of "string pulling" hidden from the public eye.

While you do have somewhat of a point there's one problem. Most arrests and raids are done for non-violent drug related crimes. And data shows that white people use drugs and commit these same nonviolent crimes at just the same rates. So why don't we see suburbia getting stormed by stop and frisk policies? You take out those nonviolent crimes and all of a sudden crime rates in black communities aren't that much higher than other communities (when you take population into account). What black people are seeing is that they are getting in trouble for XYZ but others are not. It's as if they were being targeted.

One difference is that the many (most?) violent crime in urban areas are drug related, as members of the supply chain fight amongst themselves, with the prize being able to be the one selling the drugs. They've chosen to earn their livings via criminal enterprise, and it's no surprise that other criminals will use criminal methods to eliminate the competition, so to speak. This infighting will inevitably draw the attention of the police as the body count rises.

Another difference is that while the suburbanite goes into the area, buys their drugs, or quietly buys them from/through friends at work and their social circle, and then goes home to their living room and indulges their habit quietly, without bothering anybody, many of the urban consumers don't have this option 'cause they don't have their own homes where they dictate the rules, so they consume their drugs in public or semi-public areas, and as inhibitions are lessened by the drugs, their behavior begins to be bothersome to others, and the police become involved.

The impunity that police enjoy also attracts these "race warrior" cops who see it as a chance to put the <insert race/ethnicity> man in his place. I've interacted with some pretty nice cops in my life, and you can tell that they do what they do because they want to protect and serve. But then there are others who...well...if you don't say "sir" enough they'll start escalating things rather quickly. Actually punish police, criminally, when they do criminal things. A false arrest is kidnapping. unprovoked physical force is assault and battery with a deadly weapon, since they always have a gun. Detaining someone without cause is no different than me keeping you locked up in your house by force.

I've stated that I believe that police ought to be held to a higher standard and subject to harsher punishment when it comes to lawbreaking than a civilian would for breaking the same law, the reason would be "betrayal of the public trust" or other legal phraseology with that meaning.

[garhkal]

That's all part of this "do as you please generation"

You have to shrug your shoulders and live with it.

No one takes personal responsibility for their actions and a million social workers will defend the parents actions.

And imo its liberals we can THANK for making that happen.

And at the same time they'll charge responsible parents for child abuse for giving their kids a relatively light spank on the bum.

OR worse, take the kids from said parent, just cause someone in a store reported them telling the kid "Just wait till you get home, dad's gonna spank you silly" even though nothing actually happened..

[aretood2]

One difference is that the many (most?) violent crime in urban areas are drug related, as members of the supply chain fight amongst themselves, with the prize being able to be the one selling the drugs. They've chosen to earn their livings via criminal enterprise, and it's no surprise that other criminals will use criminal methods to eliminate the competition, so to speak. This infighting will inevitably draw the attention of the police as the body count rises.

Another difference is that while the suburbanite goes into the area, buys their drugs, or quietly buys them from/through friends at work and their social circle, and then goes home to their living room and indulges their habit quietly, without bothering anybody, many of the urban consumers don't have this option 'cause they don't have their own homes where they dictate the rules, so they consume their drugs in public or semi-public areas, and as inhibitions are lessened by the drugs, their behavior begins to be bothersome to others, and the police become involved.

So why doesn't the police use the same intrusive tactics on the suburbs as they do in the city? After all, a crime is a crime.

I've stated that I believe that police ought to be held to a higher standard and subject to harsher punishment when it comes to lawbreaking than a civilian would for breaking the same law, the reason would be "betrayal of the public trust" or other legal phraseology with that meaning.

I'd be happy if they simply get punished, period.

[Coco Pops]

What if we had something like STAG from Saints Row to pacify gangs?

[Coco Pops]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/09/06...y-housing.html

Just leave this here.

According to what is in the article the students wanted to be segregated.

[aretood2]

And my response is the same as the civil rights guy's response.

[Coco Pops]

And my response is the same as the civil rights guy's response.

But what is that? Just saying you agree with one guy doesn't show us your thoughts? Please share.

[garhkal]

Well, seems Kaepernick has started a (IMO) Bad trend.. Several Dolphins playrs also did the take a knee thing during the Anthem today, and one even stood up and did the black panther raised fist salute.

That does it.. These over paid hacks are no longer worthy of my support.. PERIOD.
Hell if they all died tomorrow i wouldn't shed a single tear.

[Falcon Horus]

According to what is in the article the students wanted to be segregated.

And my response is the same as the civil rights guy's response.

I can see both sides, but I too feel the Mr. Innis has a very valid point about the segregation. Black community fought so hard to gain equality and many died for it. What is their sacrifice worth if black youth of today feel the need to congregate among themselves in safe houses. What sort of message does that spread?

Well, seems Kaepernick has started a (IMO) Bad trend.. Several Dolphins playrs also did the take a knee thing during the Anthem today, and one even stood up and did the black panther raised fist salute.

That does it.. These over paid hacks are no longer worthy of my support.. PERIOD.
Hell if they all died tomorrow i wouldn't shed a single tear.

Aw, someone envokes their right to free speech and the white guy is angry.

[garhkal]

Aw, someone envokes their right to free speech and the white guy is angry.

Free speech is one thing, being disrespectful to the nation's anthem/flag on a national day of mourning/rememberence is another..
Heck when Kaepernick did it, he whined about 'i am doing it for oppression of blacks'.. YET 68% of the NFL is black, 78% of the NBA is black. 40% or so of MLB is black.. Hockey seems to be the only sport that's majority white..
AND HE has the gall to cry "Oppression".

How would you like it if i came to your country and started disrespecting your flag especially on a national holiday?

[Pharaoh Hamenthotep]

How would you like it if i came to your country and started disrespecting your flag especially on a national holiday?

Most countries aren't as weirdly attached to their flags as the US..

[Annoyed]

How would you like it if i came to your country and started disrespecting your flag especially on a national holiday?

Most countries aren't as weirdly attached to their flags as the US..

That doesn't answer garhkal's question.