The Political Discussion Thread

[magi877]

Which is true, but if he continues to insist on building that WALL on the Mexican/USA border by shutting down the gov't and keeping it shut down, etc., he may find himself losing his support, and not from just the ones who *want* THE wall built... but for the gov't shut-down & services cut-off.


Some of us can only hope Ocasio-Cortez's "Green New Deal" would be DOA, because it is NOT economically feasible. She is living in dreamy-land. Her idea may sound wonderful, but her timing and goals in what she *EXPECTS* to be accomplished are just not realistic.


Ocasio-Cortez [COLOR="#0000FF"]needs a hands on learning education in many engineering systems and geological/mineral supplies (earth science) to understand and comprehend how effective her current "GREEN deal" ideas will actually work.(

I do agree with you

when i say Trump was needed to "break the system" I didn' t mean in any 'drain the swamp way'

I don't agree with him but when he has or does do something good I will say so (north korea, getting out of the mid east (if we do it right and not leave any allies there in the sh*t, closing down or limiting the roles of some govt offices and fed regulations)

it is that someone-trump or someone like him in his extreme, was needed to bring attn to our election system and the role of federal govt

With Cortez and her progressive pals, don't agree with them either. though I do believe that we need to totally rebuild our medical systems and make them less for-profit and more for care centered. sure, ppl can still make money, but do it in a manner that is based on worlds standards (like everything else we have that is priced based on the world market)

I am a libertarian in most issues and will always remain politically Independent. I have not registered in a party since i was 21

I have long held no faith in the abilities of either the Dem or GOP. They need to be 'repealed and replaced'

[magi877]

[QUOTE=Annoyed;14647424]Gotta disagree with you here. We need that wall, and I hope Trump sticks to his guns on this. /QUOTE]

I too think a wall should be built--

look at how many other nations have more stringent border controls then we do. many of them some Americans hold to be some type of 'standard bearers' for human rights--as in better then the US. Look how so much of europe is NOW handling their borders even within the EU

we spend billions on sending our military to foreign nations to defend their borders yet we do little to nothing to care for our own border

(do you know that post 2003 invasion, the US deployed hundreds of Border Patrol agents to Iraq to train their border patrol on border security? I still find that very strange. Under Saddam, the Iraqi security apparatus was far more capable of controlling their borders then we ever have been with our own )

[Annoyed]

With Cortez and her progressive pals, don't agree with them either. though I do believe that we need to totally rebuild our medical systems and make them less for-profit and more for care centered. sure, ppl can still make money, but do it in a manner that is based on worlds standards (like everything else we have that is priced based on the world market)

While I oppose the various "free for all" plans, I do agree that changes need to be made.

One of the biggest should be to take the lawyers out of it. Malpractice suits and the fear of them drive medical costs through the roof. Another should be regulation of drug costs. Many drugs are sold outside the US for pennies on the dollar compared to US prices for the same drug. In short, US consumers are subsidizing low drug prices in other countries. That ought to be illegal.

[Chaka-Z0]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-workers.html

Boi

*brings out bulletin board*

So we had the shady Trump Tower project in Moscou (check), the shady Trump Foundation that's been dismantled (check), the shady Trump undisclosed tax reports (check), his shady lawyer in jail (check), he probably screwed the Govt with his previous Casino venture (check)...

Anything else to add to the list? What is it going to take to impeach, him shooting someone?

[Gatefan1976]

on the military adventures and state dept 'good will' expenditures

GF, you ask is the US willing to lose financial/diplomatic/ "status" in the mid east?

well, i will ask another question in response:

what have we been getting out of it?

Better oil prices, a stake in OPEC and a client state in Israel, the local stable power in the middle east which ALSO grants you power projection and forward bases.
Nothing eh?

trump was right when he said a few yrs back that if any other nation had done Iraq Freedom in 2003, they would have taken the oil profits from the iraqis to pay for the war.

Bulldust, they would have called him a marauder, cause that's all he is.

and as far as losing ground to the russians or iranians in the mid east? well IT IS on their borders. Russia has been dealing with terror returnees who have gained battlefield experience in Iraq/ Syria or a-stan to places like Chechnya

Yeah, draw me a map where the M-E is on the Russian border.

we claim "isis is a threat to US security!" when in fact, they are/were not. except for limited terror attacks -as bad as they are- they are in no way capable of causing the damage they could cause in Russia or Iran

That's true.

so when the russians or iranians use our same national security line vis a vis ISIS/Syria, for them it is not an excuse it is a matter of actual national security

Didn't read the link about proxy wars did you.

i say let them have the mid east, look how the US reacted when the Soviets were in Nicaragua and El Salvador and Cuba? OR the Iranians in Venezuela- we do not want them there and started BS wars in Nicaragua and El Salvador to eject them

you have started, and lost damn near every war since WW2, I wonder why that is.

and for what? Daniel Ortega is still the president of Nicaragua; el salvador is a basket case

Because you failed. You had the objective to "win", everyone else has the objective to survive.

but still, we are right to not want these interlopers in our hemisphere and for the same reasons the Iranians and Russians are right to not want us over in the ME

Yeah, they are in your hemisphere, they are also in your zone of influence.
Look at a map.

As far as our treaty allies in Europe and Aus/NZ, South Korea and Japan, etc

Well, look at how much our drawdown of ground forces from Germany about 10 yrs ago affected the german economy? the loss of local civilian jobs on US bases and the loss of spending in local towns ("outside the base gate" towns) alone had a significant,although temp, negative impact on the economy.

Your towns can't even survive a plant shutdown, let alone a forward command.

it also caused the GERMANS to re arm and make the on going switch from conscript only to a professional volunteer army. a feat they are having big problems with.

Yeah, it's not like Germany or say Japan would be leary of having a massive military force. No reason at all.....

I dont see any reason for us to not honor treaties with AUS/NZ. we do not have any signif personnel at either place permanently stationed.

About 1550 marines, plus support vehicles with the notion to pump it up to 2500 to be used as a rapid response team it anyone who threatens US interests in the area, plus leave to use our airspace and sea lanes for your military vehicles with no regard to Australian interests.
So NO, you have significant troops, material and rights to disrupt our own diplomatic process.

and doesn't Aus / NZ foot the majority of the bill for whatever activity is going on anyhow? that is how it should be wherever our military is.

Are you mercenaries?
What if we don't WANT you here?
This deal is predicated on the US getting what IT want's not what WE want, and you can pay for what you want.
It's the US that wants a Asian safe harbour to project military might, and by accepting your troops and ships, we paint a target on ourselves and damage OUR chance to deal economically with China, and you expect US to pay for your protection racket that helps you??

Piss off.

this is getting long and so I will just end it by saying this:

the US and western allies are trying to make the world a place of uni polar leadership economically, diplomatically and military. IT IS NOT WORKING

Keep going, and you will have NO allies. Why is this such a hard concept for the US to grasp??

back when we had a multi polar world (soviet union) the world was actually a more stable place. the threat of mutual destruction by nuke kept the proxy wars to a low intensity.

This is severely ignorant.

yes the Vietnam war and the russian A-STA war were terrible BUT look how long and destructive (loss of life, military damage, economically, socially) our involvement in the mid east (since 1990 on the low side) and for over 17 yrs now in A-stan. not to mention our actions in Yemen, Pakistan, Libya, the Phillipines...

Who PUT you there?
Was it your allies, or was it you? Little M.I.C. Republicans and corporate Democrats saying "we must defend our borders there so we don't have to here" have more to do with that than anything else.
Again, you have been on a wartime economy since WW2.

the world is a far more violent place after are uni polar/ globalist attempts then it was before

No, it's not.

we need to go back to the multi polar model like Russia and China are pushing for now.

What's left of your security branch would disagree.

the US needs to divest itself of foreign adventures

It needs to realise the damage it has done by engaging in them. Sorry, you don't get to disrupt the M.E. on a whim and not accept responsibility for the damage you did. Saddam was an A-hole, but it was YOU who took it on yourselves to topple him, and you did, and you created pure chaos.
That is on you, no one else.

[jelgate]

I think you know the answer to that question.

[Chaka-Z0]

the world is a far more violent place after are uni polar/ globalist attempts then it was before

we need to go back to the multi polar model like Russia and China are pushing for now.

I absolutely disagree on this particular point. Russia and China MUST NOT be left in charge of the ''eastern world''. The world being more violent, which I don't really agree with, has nothing to do with this. How is the world a worst place than the faith of all those who spent some time in Gulag? Sure that was during WW2, but it was still done under the Soviet regime.

Putin (I single Vlad out because Russia = him) and China despise our Democratic world, despise democracy and despise western culture.

China spies on its people 24/7, freedom of speech is in-existent. You can get jailed for ''national security reasons'' which is utter BS, just like those Canadians that were kidnapped in reprisal of the Huawei lady.

Russia kills political adversaries, kills business men that refuse to deal with the Kremlin, conduct assassinations using their arsenal of poisons.

Russia annexes territories with complete disregard for international treaties and laws.

Iran is obviously supporting terrorist entities and might have / still be working on nuclear arsenals.

Both Rus + Chi conduct routine cyber attacks, misinformation campaigns and intellectual property theft.

Sure, the US ''world order'' is not optimal and has lots of downsides. What I do know for a certainty, is that it cannot possibly be any worse than these two Hooligans ruling Europe and Asia.

EDIT

Saddam was an A-hole, but it was YOU who took it on yourselves to topple him, and you did, and you created pure chaos.
That is on you, no one else.

This was literally the spark that lit the fire. ''Biological weapons'' bull**** did it for public opinion though.

[Gatefan1976]

Don't expect these ignorant people to realise that they lit the match Chaka.

[Gatefan1976]

Is Mexico paying for the wall yet?
Nope?
Thought not.
EDIT:
Bet I get either no answer, or some load of crap "mexico pays via taxes" line of dross
Taxes and tariffs are paid by a government, right?

[jelgate]

I bet you will get some factlees BS about how the Democrats want illegal immigrants. You can say this. He does like to repeat his conspiracy theories

[magi877]

Better oil prices, a stake in OPEC and a client state in Israel, the local stable power in the middle east which ALSO grants you power projection and forward bases.
Nothing eh?

Bulldust, they would have called him a marauder, cause that's all he is.

Yeah, draw me a map where the M-E is on the Russian border.

That's true.

Didn't read the link about proxy wars did you.

you have started, and lost damn near every war since WW2, I wonder why that is.

Because you failed. You had the objective to "win", everyone else has the objective to survive.

Yeah, they are in your hemisphere, they are also in your zone of influence.
Look at a map.

Your towns can't even survive a plant shutdown, let alone a forward command.

Yeah, it's not like Germany or say Japan would be leary of having a massive military force. No reason at all.....

About 1550 marines, plus support vehicles with the notion to pump it up to 2500 to be used as a rapid response team it anyone who threatens US interests in the area, plus leave to use our airspace and sea lanes for your military vehicles with no regard to Australian interests.
So NO, you have significant troops, material and rights to disrupt our own diplomatic process.

Are you mercenaries?
What if we don't WANT you here?
This deal is predicated on the US getting what IT want's not what WE want, and you can pay for what you want.
It's the US that wants a Asian safe harbour to project military might, and by accepting your troops and ships, we paint a target on ourselves and damage OUR chance to deal economically with China, and you expect US to pay for your protection racket that helps you??

Piss off.


Keep going, and you will have NO allies. Why is this such a hard concept for the US to grasp??

This is severely ignorant.

Who PUT you there?
Was it your allies, or was it you? Little M.I.C. Republicans and corporate Democrats saying "we must defend our borders there so we don't have to here" have more to do with that than anything else.
Again, you have been on a wartime economy since WW2.

No, it's not.

What's left of your security branch would disagree.

It needs to realise the damage it has done by engaging in them. Sorry, you don't get to disrupt the M.E. on a whim and not accept responsibility for the damage you did. Saddam was an A-hole, but it was YOU who took it on yourselves to topple him, and you did, and you created pure chaos.
That is on you, no one else.

Ok. easy big guy!!

first off, I am the one stating that we-the US- needs to get the hell out of everywhere.

then when you ask me why that would be good, I stated how it has been going disastrously for us and for others we have tried to 'help' with or without their consent, and then you try to pivot and make me the US imperialist supporter!!

that is funny!!!

I made it clear, straight out- the US should NOT be anywhere other then in the US and the western hemisphere-our backyard

and yes, the entirety of the M-E DOES in fact border Russia as well as Iran -Iran is in the mid east, China and India

let them have it to their ends and means

stake in OPEC? that is laughable- remember the Arab Oil embargo in the 70's?

Israel an ally of the US? Again, ludicrous!

Israel has done nothing to actively participate in any US adventure in the mid east. I know, I was there for part of those 'fun and games'

and yes, if some other nation does invite us in to help, then it should be on a pay basis. why should it not?

the definition of a proxy war no longer applies. PW is related to the cold war between USSR and USA, with our associated 'team mates'.

what is going on now with Iran and Russia is no way a proxy war

one thing- for the Russians it is a defense of their only asset in the mid east with ports on the MED Sea-Syria under Assad

it is also about stopping terrorists from returning to Russia and using their skills from Syria in Russia

(sound familiar? 'kill the terrorists there before they come here')

Iran has its own interests in Syria and Iraq as well as Yemen and elsewhere for its own interests.It is no way a 'proxy'.

Iran sees itself has the emerging lead in mid east dominance versus Saudi.

And why shouldn't they be?

Let Russians, Iranians, arabs and others die in the mid east, no more Americans should be used there in senseless and useless-to-the-national interest wars there

we don't need arab oil either

plenty of oil and natural gas here and in canada as well as elsewhere in this hemisphere

Australia? 1500 marines is hardly a force of any real strength

when you say 1500 marines, those are not all combat troops. Any number of US forces will always be counted in total to include support and logistics troops. Out of that 1500, there is probably only 1 full battalion of infantry with maybe one tank company in support

those 1500 are a token of American commitment. They would hardly be able to secure anything more then the base they live on let alone Australia or the region.

I get it, maybe AUS and NZ are concerned about growing CHinese threats. Ok, fair enough.

make your own coalition without any US involvement

Aust, NZ, Indonesia,Malaysia, PAPUA-New guinea, the Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand maybe even India and all the other associated nations in that area should form a defensive group against china

also, I think that a reason so many Australians and other peoples have such animosity towards the US is just not because of what the US does but your own governments complicity with the US--so, TAKE IT UP WITH THEM

This is a issue about sanity and common sense and for America to STOP being the world cop and bully.

Let the rest of the world police up the sh#t from now on! America and Americans are tired...

[SoulReaver]

Trump was needed to 'break the system'

how did that work out?
ha yes the $ystem's stronger than ever

(who'd have expected that from a fraudulent tax-dodging corporate billionaire?)

Israel an ally of the US? Again, ludicrous!

Israel has done nothing to actively participate in any US adventure in the mid east. I know, I was there for part of those 'fun and games'

hold on - you saying all those $ from the US are a freebie?

since when does the capital of capitalism give anything for free?

[magi877]

how did that work out?
ha yes the $ystem's stronger than ever

(who'd have expected that from a fraudulent tax-dodging corporate billionaire?)


hold on - you saying all those $ from the US are a freebie?

since when does the capital of capitalism give anything for free?

the "system" of American self governance is far more stuffed with crazy glue then ever before

i give the example pf 2 outliers to the system- Trump and Ocasio-Cortez

hopefully one of them, or someone, can crack off the crazy glue and expose the workings of pay to play bureaucracy, the lobbyist system and so many other things wrong with our representative democracy today

it wold take a whole page of text to even list everything that is wrong

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you tell me what is the US getting from Israel? There is nothing we have there or take from the place (which has about zero for natural resources by the way. We have no military bases there and anytime we wanted to fly over either strike packages or even supply planes, we had to get flyover permission...that is not how the "US greatest ally" should be acting

the thing is,Israel is nothing more then European colony imposed on the mid east. So repressive towards the native ppl's the colonists have been over time that even the actual hebrews who were native to the Palestine of the British Occupation, were treated by them nearly as bad as the arabs were,

Long standing business co owned by palestinian hebrews and arab christian and muslims, were destroyed by the colonists

The main reason for the US and the west's support of Israel is not rational as it appears the only reason that can be fathomed for the support is one of religion. No leader wants to be seen as being that 'world leader' who turns their back on Israel. the 'chosen people'.

It is a bunch of religious bumpkiss.

look up a googles search, type in something like "why do american Evangelicals support the US governments position on Israel?"

[Annoyed]

Is Mexico paying for the wall yet?
Nope?
Thought not.
EDIT:
Bet I get either no answer, or some load of crap "mexico pays via taxes" line of dross
Taxes and tariffs are paid by a government, right?

I never expected Mexico to pay for it. Sure, the argument can be made that they are paying via indirect methods, but that is accounting BS. (Accounting is on the same level as statistics as far as spreading BS goes).

That doesn't mean the wall should not be built, and at this point, I wish he would just go ahead and build it without congressional authority using the executive authority and the military. The Democrats will never pull their heads out of their arses on this, simply because they oppose Trump. Many of them advocated barriers long before Trump did. They flipped because Trump wants it.

The people who really need to be called on the carpet for this are the Republicans who failed to support this BEFORE the House flipped. This should have been over and done with last year.

[Chaka-Z0]

Ok. easy big guy!!

Forgive him, he's Australian, it's in his blood.

J.R.R. Tolkien — 'Do not meddle in the affairs of wizardsAustralians, for they are subtle and quick to anger.'

first off, I am the one stating that we-the US- needs to get the hell out of everywhere.

By your logic, the US should've stayed out of WW2 as well eh? Why would they need to intervene in Europe' squabbles? It's not going to give them anything back, there will be many American lives lost. It's not their fight, let the Russians and British fight it out. Isolationists and collaborators almost made that scenario true and nearly doomed us all back then.

If it wasn't for the cunning and courage (and lots of luck) of the World leaders in the 30s-40s we'd be under Nazi rule probably and not having this conversation.

Isolationism discourse is at the core of Trump's rhetoric, even if you don't like him you support him by advocating this position. A lot of work has to be done overseas, both military and humanitarian. Sometimes, humanitarian efforts are directly linked with advancing your interests, such as defending a rebel faction or persecuted group under a dictatorship in order to overthrow the standing govt.

You want to wait until the world turns to sh*t in order to act, I'd rather not personally.