The Political Discussion Thread

[jelgate]

Somehow I doubt the validity of that statement

[Womble]

USA elections this time round are a mind-boggling mess.

On one side, you have a headless mess of a party with no direction, ideology or strategy whatsoever except opposing the other guy, cancelling this and rolling back that. The prospective leader is an eccentric billionaire salesman who is mostly good for comedy fodder.

On the other side you have a party that is increasingly becoming an umbrella for left-wing radical groups. Their agenda is dictated by the latest televised controversy, their current leader is as ruthless against domestic political opponents as he is spineless against the foreign foes of his state, and the party's prospective leader's credentials boil down to being a woman and having been the wife of a previous President. Her greatest achievement as a member of the acting government was inability to separate work email from private email.

I love you, Americans, but seriously, may God help you this time, because on your own you're screwed.

[Womble]

Hamas naval commandos arrest dolphin who 'spied for Israel'

Hamas has captured a dolphin that it says the Israel Navy was using to attack members of its armed wing, Izzadin Kassam, the Palestinian daily Al-Quds claimed on Wednesday.

Quoting sources in the Gaza Strip, the paper said that the Israeli dolphin had been captured off the shores of the Gaza Strip a few days ago.

The sources said Hamas naval commandos had noticed the dolphin making “suspicious movements.” When they followed the mammal, they discovered that it was carrying a device to monitor underwater activities, they said.

They claimed that Hamas frogmen had managed to seize the dolphin and take it to the shore, and that the dolphin had been equipped with a remote control monitoring device and a camera.

According to the sources, the captured device can fire small arrows that could kill or seriously wound anyone who dove deep into the sea.

The report said Hamas believed Israel was planning to target or monitor the movement’s naval commandos during their training in the sea. It added that Hamas experts were continuing to check whether the captured dolphin was carrying other electronic devices.

Hamas officials in the Gaza Strip refused to comment on the newspaper report.

[garhkal]

One other thing... You can't really compare prior waves of immigration to the current one.
In prior waves, the immigrants were coming into the country legally, via legal entry points and procedures, in numbers set by the United States.

A very large percentage of the current wave is coming in illegally.

This has been a long standing issue, too. Back in the eighties, Reagan granted amnesty to the illegals in the country at that time. Part of this was also added requirements for employers to verify that job applicants were in the country legally.

That didn't work out so well, did it?

It's time to try another solution.

It was also done with the promise of a wall being built.. Which never materialized.

Supervillains aren't really known for fixing things..

You realise his immigration plans alone would bankrupt the US, right?

And that's before the legal issues of building a wall thousands of miles long through privately owned properties...

A) how will it bankrupt the US to deport the millions of illegals here? IMO it costs a lot more each and every year they are here, than it would cost to remove them.
B) how would there be legal issues with building the wall? We use Eminent domain or a lot less of a worthy issue than building the wall is imo.

But most of your complaints have been about Hispanics in general. You oppose anyone who speaks Spanish. Most of the time you leave off the "illegal" part so are just complaining about immigration in general.

Cause they are often the largest chunk Of illegals..

If you want to deport all illegal immigrants, including those whose visas have expired, why are you only complaining about those from Mexico? Why not the Canadians? Or anyone from the rest of the world who has overstayed their welcome?

Go after them too.

Criminals? You don't believe in innocent until proven guilty?

Suspected criminals then.

This is directed towards the comment about legal immigrants. Are you thick or something? Do you not know that people of a certain age are unable to learn a language fully to the extent necessary to feel comfortable in a court or dealing with the government?

I have heard that said on some other sites. But yet i know quite a few people in the 40s+ who easily learn a foreign language.. So how hard IS it? What is that supposed 'cut off age'?
Also, how long have they been here, and why have they not bothered learning the language till now when 'its too hard'?

Why don't we just speak the Lingua Franca and conduct business in it as much as possible and provide translation services when not all parties are able to speak in it themselves?

Who decides what that Lingua franca is? Who pays for everyone to now learn IT, so everyone can speak the same?

I want proof to back up that number, first of all. I am not taking your word for it like I did the Obama/Iran Deal/Congress thing.

That proof came in all of the articles linked, all of which quoted the 7 million figure..

And who the freak is expecting you to?

See my comment on when i went job hunting in Houston. Also know several others who have had the same thing happen in other spots of Tx, Florida, CA and AZ.

A personal anecdote isn't exactly a good argument. I can easily counter that with my own.

Maybe. BUT it does go to show my POV on the situation.

His wall alone would cost 200 Billion, not to mention the cost of maintenance, and the cost of the extra patrols. We are already spending billions on border patrol. Talk about fiscal irresponsibility. His tariff proposals were attempted during the great depression. Their result? It made the depression even worse and cost even more jobs.

Being that if the wall gets built and we deport all thsoe here, how much will THAT save over say 5-10 years?

Not to mention just how closely tied the American economy is to the well being of the Mexican economy.

And why is that? This is the first time someone's claimed that OUR economy is directly tied to Mexico.

If anything, Mexico has done more to secure the American border than Obama has. And you want to punish Mexico for all of that?

How so?? From the many news reports i have seen about those train loads of illegals coming here THROUGH mexico, it seems the Mexican police/authorities don't do a damn thing to stop people coming THROUGH their country to get here..

USA elections this time round are a mind-boggling mess.

On one side, you have a headless mess of a party with no direction, ideology or strategy whatsoever except opposing the other guy, cancelling this and rolling back that. The prospective leader is an eccentric billionaire salesman who is mostly good for comedy fodder.

On the other side you have a party that is increasingly becoming an umbrella for left-wing radical groups. Their agenda is dictated by the latest televised controversy, their current leader is as ruthless against domestic political opponents as he is spineless against the foreign foes of his state, and the party's prospective leader's credentials boil down to being a woman and having been the wife of a previous President. Her greatest achievement as a member of the acting government was inability to separate work email from private email.

I love you, Americans, but seriously, may God help you this time, because on your own you're screwed.

That about sums it up Nicely..

[Womble]

Assuming that you buy the basic premise of your statement, that older folks can't learn the language well (and I don't buy it), then perhaps the older folks should consider staying put.

So anyone immigrating to the USA must leave their grandparents behind? And God forbid someone moves to the USA not for their own sake but for the future of their children?

I've been dealing with local Israeli variations of this nonsense for the last 20 years since I moved in. My Hebrew is better than that of most natives but I do speak with an obvious Russian accent and I've never felt the need to hide my origins. I've been known to tell people who dislike my accent that the founders of this country spoke as I do, not as they do, and that usually ends it.

Americans have immigration backwards; they see it as a threat instead of as an asset, and so they waste its potential the same way they waste the potential of military vets. Here's how it works in Israel: the first-generation immigrants - 30+ adults and elderly are USUALLY a lost generation. Many of them are successful and make it big; most of them come in full knowledge and acceptance of the fact that they will give up on their status and profession back home and they will work undignified unskilled jobs until retirement so that the second generation - their children - could do well in life. These people will never fully integrate and there's no pressuring them to do so. The second generation are bi-cultural, open-minded people primed from early childhood for success; they're the ones who makes waves by displacing the children of the native-born from birthright dominance establishing their immigration wave as the country's new growth engine. They intermarry and integrate fast, but on equal terms, as people who dictate the new culture as much as they absorb it. Their children - the third generation - intermarry with and become indistinguishable from the grandchildren of the native-born.

THAT is how integration works. Not by force. By giving them conditions to contribute to the society and succeed.

Regardless of the circumstances, it is arrogance in the extreme to move to another country and expect the people of that country to learn your ways and language.

Nobody is expecting YOU to learn their language, but it IS expected that the services that provide for the new immigrants' basic rights as people and as residents be supplied in a way that these immigrants can use.

[Annoyed]

Originally Posted by Annoyed
Assuming that you buy the basic premise of your statement, that older folks can't learn the language well (and I don't buy it), then perhaps the older folks should consider staying put.

So anyone immigrating to the USA must leave their grandparents behind? And God forbid someone moves to the USA not for their own sake but for the future of their children?

Did you see the bit about not believing that older people can't learn English?

Nobody is expecting YOU to learn their language, but it IS expected that the services that provide for the new immigrants' basic rights as people and as residents be supplied in a way that these immigrants can use.

They can use those services in English. They should learn English BEFORE coming here. Just as I would have to learn the language of any country I moved to before moving there.

[Falcon Horus]

Did you see the bit about not believing that older people can't learn English?

I can even tell you that youngsters have issues with it. What comes natural to you, does not automatically come natural to anyone else, and please don't give me that crap about how English is the most spoken language in the world cause that isn't true.

[SoulReaver]

and please don't give me that crap about how English is the most spoken language in the world cause that isn't true.

it's the terran language whether you like it or not
and don't give me that counter-crap about how chinese is the most spoken language in the world cause (such considerations go beyond raw stats so) that isn't true

[Falcon Horus]

it's the terran language whether you like it or not
and don't give me that counter-crap about how chinese is the most spoken language in the world cause (such considerations go beyond raw stats so) that isn't true

It's probably Spanish anyway...

[jelgate]

It's probably Spanish anyway...

It depends if you go by countries or population.

[Falcon Horus]

Native speakers, here we go:

Spoiler:

1. Mandarin

With more than 955 million speakers, Mandarin claims the top spot as the world’s most common language — and one that often requires professional translation services.

One of the five major dialects of Chinese, Mandarin is the official language of China and Taiwan, as well as one of the four official dialects of Singapore. Approximately 14.4 percent of the world’s population are native speakers of Mandarin.

2. Spanish

Its prominence in the Americas as well as in Europe makes Spanish one of the most common languages, with 405 million speakers. The Castilian dialect in Spain is held as a national standard, although Andalusian and Catalan are also spoken.

3. English

English used to be the second-most common language, but Spanish-speakers have increased much more rapidly over the past 15 years. Still, scholars have named English the world’s “most influential language,” due to the number of speakers (360 million) and the number of countries in which it is spoken.

4. Hindi/Urdu

Although they have different written forms, Hindi and Urdu share a history, many common words, and a grammar. Many linguists consider them different “registers” of the same common language. Over 310 million people speak one of the two.

5. Arabic

Arabic, spoken by 295 million speakers worldwide, is also the language of Muslim holy writings. It has also influenced other most common languages — Spanish has approximately 4,000 words with Arabic roots.

6. Portuguese

Out of the 215 million Portuguese speakers worldwide, nearly 150 million of them speak Brazilian Portuguese, the most common language variant. Portuguese is also the official language of other countries including Angola, Mozambique, and — clearly — Portugal, among others.

7. Bengali

With 205 million speakers, Bengali is also the second most widely spoken language in India, popular in the easternmost states. Bengali is an official language of both India and Bangladesh.

8. Russian

Russian’s 155 million speakers make it the world’s eighth most common language. It is also one of the six official languages of the United Nations, along with Arabic, Chinese (Mandarin), English, French and Spanish.

9. Japanese

Out of the approximately 125 million people who speak Japanese, 124 million live in Japan and the island group of Okinawa. This makes it unusual among the most common languages in its geographic concentration.

10. Punjabi

Fifteen years ago, German held the tenth spot, though Punjabi has recently surpassed it. With 102 million speakers, Punjabi is mainly spoken in India and Pakistan, and is a native language of 1.44 percent of the world’s population.

English does take the lead over Chinese when it includes speakers who are not native speakers.

[mad_gater]

or maybe Gaelic should be the official language

[aretood2]

A) how will it bankrupt the US to deport the millions of illegals here? IMO it costs a lot more each and every year they are here, than it would cost to remove them.

$200 Billion just to make the wall alone. I am sure she was using Hyperbole. But it will dive the US deeper and deeper into debt.

I have heard that said on some other sites. But yet i know quite a few people in the 40s+ who easily learn a foreign language.. So how hard IS it? What is that supposed 'cut off age'?
Also, how long have they been here, and why have they not bothered learning the language till now when 'its too hard'?

You don't know much about human biology and stuff, do you? Everyone is wired differently. Some have really high aptitudes for a certain set of skills while others have no aptitude for that same set. Those who are older tend to lose said aptitudes when it comes to learning a language to a certain degree. And also, how exactly are these immigrants supposed to find and pay for English tutors in their home countries? I mean, if they could afford that...don't you think they'd be less likely to abandon their home?

Who decides what that Lingua franca is? Who pays for everyone to now learn IT, so everyone can speak the same?

You mean "the Lingua Franca." The most spoken language, that is to say the most commonly spoken language. In a nation like the US, by default that is English. People in the Roman Empire didn't all know Latin to perfection, and Greek was the favored language for the elites. Yet no historian will tell you that language was its downfall. However, Latin and Greek were the Lingua Franca and everyone knew how to speak one of them to an extent.

The mechanism which chooses it are historical (tradition) and economic. Right not it would be economically impossible to change the Lingua Franca. At the rate of decline of Spanish immigrants and the loss of Spanish among American born hispanics, Spanish isn't really all that capable of becoming the new Lingua Franca. That would be an economic impossibility. Fearing the loss of English is no different than being afraid of the monster under your bed.

That proof came in all of the articles linked, all of which quoted the 7 million figure..

I don't recall seeing any of that. And what specifically did it say about those 7 million?

See my comment on when i went job hunting in Houston. Also know several others who have had the same thing happen in other spots of Tx, Florida, CA and AZ.

Confirmation bias much?

Maybe. BUT it does go to show my POV on the situation.

I tend to ask for evidence instead of wild speculation based on personal anecdotes for even my own opinions.

Being that if the wall gets built and we deport all thsoe here, how much will THAT save over say 5-10 years?

Nothing, it will save nothing. You see, if you research the issue and look at studies by groups like the CATO institute (a libertarian group) you'll find that there are a lot of myths and you are referencing one of them.

CATO identifies these few facts: Immigrants (even illegal ones) don't lower wages, increase crime, burden the welfare system, they do pay taxes (and the illegal ones can never ever claim benefits even if they legalize), they only burden school and hospitals in the short term but not the long term. They also tend not to compete with citizens for the same jobs. The list of myths people believe in go on and on. And CATO isn't the only think tank or research group that has these findings.

And why is that? This is the first time someone's claimed that OUR economy is directly tied to Mexico.

Research economics and international trade and then come back to me with that question.

How so?? From the many news reports i have seen about those train loads of illegals coming here THROUGH mexico, it seems the Mexican police/authorities don't do a damn thing to stop people coming THROUGH their country to get here..

I guess Fox News hasn't reported on it. But here's an article from the blaze. It reports about increasing security.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2010...der-of-mexico/

This article mentions record low apprehensions and cites enforcement in the Mexican southern border as a contributing factor.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/homeland...low-1437684661

Then there's this times article
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/wo...f-its-own.html

This one from the post talks about a reduction in immigrants
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/flow-of-illegal-immigration-slows-as-us-mexico-border-dynamics-evolve/2015/05/27/c5caf02c-006b-11e5-833c-a2de05b6b2a4_story.html

Did you see the bit about not believing that older people can't learn English?

Yeah, and not everyone believes that NASA landed men on the moon either regardless of the evidence. Science is science.

They can use those services in English. They should learn English BEFORE coming here. Just as I would have to learn the language of any country I moved to before moving there.

Sure, as long as they have a translator. Be it a family member or a professional that they pay for the service and so on. And not many have the means to learn English BEFORE coming here.

[Annoyed]

Yeah, and not everyone believes that NASA landed men on the moon either regardless of the evidence. Science is science.

It may be more difficult to do so, learning anything takes longer as you get older, but that doesn't mean they can't do it.

Sure, as long as they have a translator. Be it a family member or a professional that they pay for the service and so on. And not many have the means to learn English BEFORE coming here.

As I said, if I ever decide to move to a non-english speaking country, it's on me to learn their language / culture BEFORE I go there. It doesn't matter how difficult it is, it's still gotta be done.
The same applies in reverse.

[aretood2]

It may be more difficult to do so, learning anything takes longer as you get older, but that doesn't mean they can't do it.



As I said, if I ever decide to move to a non-english speaking country, it's on me to learn their language / culture BEFORE I go there. It doesn't matter how difficult it is, it's still gotta be done.
The same applies in reverse.

That's easy to say...given that you have the means to do so.