The Political Discussion Thread

[Falcon Horus]

well, I did *not* specify who's "holi-day" it was referring to, because everyone somewhere on this planet has their own "holi-day" or holiday.

Doesn't actually matter to the point I was making, seeing as the topic of discussion was in fact Christmas, and not Hanukkah or Kwanzaa or Chinese New Year, or Yule, or the Winter Solstice.



Don't try to twist your way out of this one, now.

I left plenty of room for that, but disagree on the origin of true Christ*mas spirit.

True Christmas-spirit?

Seriously?!?

I believe the correct answer would be - what true christmas spirit?

Roman Emperor Constantine corrupted any original celebrations remembering the "birth of Jesus" when he (Constantine) morphed his pagan stuff into his new fangled Christianity. He did it for political reasons, not because he actually believed in the *Christian* faith.

Politics are all about who has the power, and how to keep it.

Also, 2 different hardcopy paper books that I found in the Library, long before the internet existed, showed what Constantine saw in his vision (which he claimed was a sign to him to win one of his major battles) --was not a Christian "cross" but an Egyptian ankh (T with circle at top). Anyway, it was Constantine who *birthed* the Catholic Church, not Peter--the guy who actually walked with Jesus, almost 300 years before then.

That's probably because that's what Christianity does best - steal something from everywhere and use it to gain more followers, and more easily convert the masses.
Adopt a little of theirs and before you know it, they'll follow in your footsteps... politics yet again...

Oh look at that... a political discussion about religion. This is new.

Is there really anything original about Christianity?

Remember Akhenaton (father of the infamous Tutanchaton or more commonly known as Tutanchamon or perhaps you only know his deathmask which I sincerely hope isn't the case) -- he tried the one-god-thing long before Jesus was even born. Or more LOL-worthy the remarkable comparison between images of Isis and the infant Horus, and Maria with the infant Jesus.

Oh well... I could go on but I'll move that to the religious thread...

Anywho... sidenote.. To me personally, because I was raised on faithfully watching "Rudolph, the red-nosed Reindeer" every year, snow will always be associated with Christmas..

Then I guess you're lucky you don't live down under, or worse somewhere where there's snow all year round.

(link below is broken. Please remove B L A N K spaces in beginning of web address to access article/link for complete details)

No idea why you insist on breaking your links when you can just post them without any problem, just click on the globe with the chain.

See -> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/20701831

[DigiFluid]

The developmental history of Christmas really is pretty fascinating, from a lot of angles.

For instance, the word itself is actually a modern linguistic development. Its antecedents, though, are actually quite similar, from the Old English term translating into "Christ's Mass."

Santa Claus, meanwhile, is an amalgamation of Saint Nicholas, the pre-Christian Germanic god of the hunt Odin, a Nordic folk character called Tomte, and is really only a tradition about 200 years old.

The history itself is also pretty neat. While the early church had, by the middle of the fourth century, decided to celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25, many of the traditions that we now associate with the date actually evolved independently in areas of Europe which had not yet been converted to Christianity. The Yule log burning in the hearth, for instance, actually originates from the Winter Solstice festivals held in pagan northern Europe and Scandanavia since time immemorial. The tradition of gift-giving is also an independent development which started as the Romans' Saturnalia festival (to celebrate the god Saturn) in mid-December.

And naturally as Christianity spread throughout Middle Age Europe, as with any cultural expansion, its new adherents brought their own cultural traditions to the religion, evolving into what is now--correctly or incorrectly, depending on how long- or short-term you want to look at things--regarded as "traditional."

Some more peculiar holiday facts:

• Scotland abolished the celebration of Christmas in 1640 to put a stop to "superstition," and it didn't become a Scottish holiday again until 1958
• the English Puritans, who would go on to settle what became America, came to power during the English Civil War and actually banned Christmas in 1647. Christmas in England did not resume till the restoration of King Charles II in 1660, though it continued to be disapproved of by many in the English church hierarchy. These same Puritans also banned Christmas in New England from 1659-1681
• Kwanzaa, coming from a Swahili phrase meaning 'fruit of the harvest,' grew out of the black nationalist movement in the 1960s and its founder was a little bit fruit loops. He allegedly tried to promote it by saying that Jesus was psychotic and that Christianity was a white peoples' religion. But, as a harvest-related celebration, Kwanzaa isn't actually religious and thus is not incompatible with Christmas

[SeaBee]

People, this is the political discussion thread, not the religious discussion thread.

[aretood2]

Politics are all about who has the power, and how to keep it.



That's probably because that's what Christianity does best - steal something from everywhere and use it to gain more followers, and more easily convert the masses.
Adopt a little of theirs and before you know it, they'll follow in your footsteps... politics yet again...

Oh look at that... a political discussion about religion. This is new.

As Digi pointed out, there really as no sinister conspiracy theory that lead to the consolidation of various pagan traditions into modern day Christmas. You're sounding a bit too much like the guy who saw aliens in Roswell there...But the fact of the matter is that Catholicism as amicable to the incorporation of paganism in "Christianity" and the protestant churches merely inherited their traditions (some of which they hold on to so tightly that any sign of dessent is returned with harsh accusations and social lynching).

Is there really anything original about Christianity?

This question is based on a false premise. That false premise being that Christianity intends to be original. If Christianity was "original" then that would violate the very thing that makes it possible to exist, it's strongest foundation. That foundation being Judaism.

Now, if you want to say that Judaism stole things from other religions (A phrase I have never heard or read in academic circles btw) then your comment wouldn't be nearly as ridiculous..."nearly" being the operative word here.

Remember Akhenaton (father of the infamous Tutanchaton or more commonly known as Tutanchamon or perhaps you only know his deathmask which I sincerely hope isn't the case) -- he tried the one-god-thing long before Jesus was even born. Or more LOL-worthy the remarkable comparison between images of Isis and the infant Horus, and Maria with the infant Jesus.

Catholicism is not, contrary to popular belief, Christianity in its entirety.

Oh well... I could go on but I'll move that to the religious thread...

Please put some thought into it if you do.

[lordofseas]

America's fiscal cliff...(Any comments)

[Falcon Horus]

As Digi pointed out, there really as no sinister conspiracy theory that lead to the consolidation of various pagan traditions into modern day Christmas. You're sounding a bit too much like the guy who saw aliens in Roswell there...But the fact of the matter is that Catholicism as amicable to the incorporation of paganism in "Christianity" and the protestant churches merely inherited their traditions (some of which they hold on to so tightly that any sign of dessent is returned with harsh accusations and social lynching).

I'm going to not try to take offence that especially since I have no idea what you're talking about -- what conspiricy theory?

Seriously, not a clue here...

This question is based on a false premise. That false premise being that Christianity intends to be original. If Christianity was "original" then that would violate the very thing that makes it possible to exist, it's strongest foundation. That foundation being Judaism.

Could it be something went lost in my translation from my Dutch thought pattern into English? Probably...

Now, if you want to say that Judaism stole things from other religions (A phrase I have never heard or read in academic circles btw) then your comment wouldn't be nearly as ridiculous..."nearly" being the operative word here.

And again... trying not to take offence to my intelligence. Also, not entirely certain which academic circles you move in.

Catholicism is not, contrary to popular belief, Christianity in its entirety.

That I am aware of. More than you probably are willing to give me credit for.

Please put some thought into it if you do.

Why should I, you've clearly already made up your mind about my sanity. So no matter what I write (with the Assyriologist living next door if I need academic input) it'll probably end up with a roll of your eyes, a scroll down and a whateva...

America's fiscal cliff...(Any comments)

Has it happened yet?

[lordofseas]

Has it happened yet?

It'll happen in about 6 days.

[Girlbot]

It'll happen in about 6 days.

*checks parachute for fiscal cliff dive*

[lordofseas]

*checks parachute for fiscal cliff dive*

*pokes holes into parachute*

Neehahaha.

[Girlbot]

*pokes holes into parachute*

Neehahaha.

*zaps LoS

[lordofseas]

*zaps LoS

I was holding your parachute...

*peers through smoking holes in parachute*

[SGalisa]

No idea why you insist on breaking your links when you can just post them without any problem, just click on the globe with the chain.

why break the links? BANDWIDTH, for one. When a link is presented on any website, it often consumes more memory bandwidth than necessary. GW has had these discussions before. It may seem to have unlimited memory and size, but web sites aren't cheap, especially one of GW's awesome magnitude.

Also, because what's on the other end often has annoying ads, lingering videos, SURVEYS, and "God-knows" what else before you can actually read the articles. Plus, (most news related--) the articles are often removed or archived to other locations within 2 to 6 months, and thus that eventually creates a dead link, which it becomes too time consuming for Greg or anyone else on GW to remove the dead links from every single topic on GW. Also, some sites have copyright issues (political implications!) and *require* linking permission, which is kind of weird -- if they want the world to read it, but don't want their link shown, why bother having their site in the first place? So, viewing is at the discretion of the reader, and free of hassles to GW (well, hopefully free of hassles).

I used to try to correct my own links, but there are too many topics/links to keep track of, so it becomes another BANDWIDTH issue that just keeps piling up and up. I realize it is an inconvenience to break a link to start with, but it's a courtesy to the web site, so that the Official web site caretakers and moderators don't have to be responsible for links from other websites they didn't have anything to do with to start with. This has all been discussed before in GW's "Forum Announcements and Help" subforum, as well as on other web sites I've posted on. I know of other web site links that have been posted, and never fixed, and somewhere over the years, those sites have been taken over by some other entity, not even remotely connected to the original link.

That is why I break some web and news links. (..not because I want to, but as a courtesy to the web site owners.. unless otherwise notified)

Doesn't actually matter to the point I was making, seeing as the topic of discussion was in fact Christmas, and not Hanukkah or Kwanzaa or Chinese New Year, or Yule, or the Winter Solstice.



Don't try to twist your way out of this one, now.

True Christmas-spirit?

Seriously?!?

I believe the correct answer would be - what true christmas spirit?

Politics are all about who has the power, and how to keep it.

That's probably because that's what Christianity does best - steal something from everywhere and use it to gain more followers, and more easily convert the masses.
Adopt a little of theirs and before you know it, they'll follow in your footsteps... politics yet again...

I'm not twisting my way out. Roman Emperor Constantine used his political power to corrupt the Christian image (from Jesus' living / breathing human time era), when Constantine morphed his Roman ways in with what used to be First Century Christianity story figures. He used his political power to create the Catholic Church. For 200 years, before Constantine came into power, early Christians may have remembered the life/death, etc. of Jesus of Nazareth in their thoughts, but not in a physical holiday celebration.

Also, since the early Christians were mostly on the financially poor end, they'd probably be appalled at seeing the lavishness of what the Catholic church has collected over the centuries, at the expense of the gullible seeking to gain entrance to heaven (gullible = non-Catholics mostly.. most Catholics I know tend to overlook / ignore the "splendor" of wealth accumulated over the decades in some very elaborate Catholic cathedrals, etc. Some Protestant churches are also in that "wealth" status with emphasis on *entertainment* values -- just depends on if they use those fancy things wisely). Politics in Catholism is not much different than politics in the government, because they (the Catholic Church system) is a form of government. Tithing to the Church is just like tithing to the government. Just a different reason is given for giving one's (church) TAX ("indulgence" gift). Giving for charity should be optional, not out of guilt or mandatory, but many churches play politics in ways that are almost as bad as being forced to give on top of giving of one's regular taxes (to the secular gov't).

As for what is a true Christmas spirit, I did say Christ*mas spirit.. exactly as it is spelled (first century remembrances of Jesus' sermon on the mount and other passages Jesus spoke upon/about). Christ*mas is ALL of the gospels.. not just a tiny portion of them; so is the *spirit* of such knowledge/info in its essence. That also includes the (historical) story of Joseph (Abraham's grandson, Isaac's son) and the passage of Ezekiel 34 (the TRUE shepherd guarding over his flock). There is nothing borrowed there. Constantine didn't borrow or steal-- he morphed the beliefs of his people and culture into the fast growing Christian stories and beliefs, and thus (by way of political decrees) corrupted the original Christian "beliefs" with bits and pieces from Rome. That political decree/action birthed the Catholic Church.

Has nothing to do with Saint Nick or reindeer (tho, I loved Clariss, Rudolph's *deerest* girlfriend! "There's always tomorrow for dreams to come true...!" I sing that year round, not just at "Christmas-time").

Holidays have been around for centuries, even BC centuries and in all cultures. Spelling it as HOLI-day is no different than changing the whole thought of
"God is nowhere" to "God is now-here" (same word, just phrased differently, but it definitely changes the entire meaning).

That's why I said the secular governing systems will have to come up with a new name, if they find the phrasing in the least bit offensive.. (city-data forums are full of people writing about being offended for the littlest things and demanding the government to *FIX* the issues somehow..! aka, by removing all refs to anything remotely appearing "Christian" in a global aspect, not just as a local complaint)
That's politics at work!

[SGalisa]

America's fiscal cliff...(Any comments)

No comments, not really. The financial fallout/cliff is just putting people back where they started years ago.
And this is only the beginning of the new taxing norm. The UN (United Nations) has been discussing about a world TAX being instituted sometime in the (near) future, too. That's in addition to what folks are *already* paying in to whomever.

Or, is that some sort of "indulgence" tax, so people can stay alive and as healthy as possible..?

People forget that the gov't money comes from the TAXpayers.
Hurricane Sandy relief from the USA gov't is still coming from the TAXpayers, not the gov't. Gov't only hands out money they get from IRS and state/FED taxes. President Obama requested 60.4 BILLION of USA dollars to be provided for Sandy's relief.. This is money that is in addition the the already triple deficit, etc. The money is still coming from the TAXpayers.

[The Flyattractor]

January 2nd. The Begining of the Obamacolypse.

The Mayans aint got nuttin on him!

[aretood2]

Why should I, you've clearly already made up your mind about my sanity. So no matter what I write (with the Assyriologist living next door if I need academic input) it'll probably end up with a roll of your eyes, a scroll down and a whateva...

I don't eye roll nor am I like that. I'm requoting your post and providing some sort of insight that will hopefully explain what I said and why I said it. BTW, I rarely make my mind up about people, and many things for that matter.

Politics are all about who has the power, and how to keep it.

You mentioned politics, many churches are guilty of it. However, I wasn't seeing specific cases in your post, just a general blanket of hostility to people who celebrate Christmas...that in itself isn't the reason why I reacted the way I did.

That's probably because that's what Christianity does best - steal something from everywhere and use it to gain more followers, and more easily convert the masses.
Adopt a little of theirs and before you know it, they'll follow in your footsteps... politics yet again...

This is why. You could have said the Catholic church, but even then to use the verb "To Steal" is too much. In English that has a malicious (meaning bad or evil) connotation. You did no discriminate any other group that threw off such traditions, such as Quakers. You lumped everyone into a neat category of thieves. Or at least that's what the use of the verb made me/makes me believe. This turns your post into a hostile one.

Is there really anything original about Christianity?

This one only helps support that feeling I got from the previous paragraph. Insinuating that there is nothing original about Christianity, you are implying (wittingly or unwittingly) that everything was "Stolen" (Past tense of "To Steal"). This made me quesiton how much you even know about Christianity. It brought to memory a film that I watched...a very poorly put together film that tried to discredit Christianity from a Pagan point of view (I think it was Pagan). That film is the zeitgeist. So my mind went to "Oh, another person that believe this stuff." That was reinforced by the next paragraph below.

Remember Akhenaton (father of the infamous Tutanchaton or more commonly known as Tutanchamon or perhaps you only know his deathmask which I sincerely hope isn't the case) -- he tried the one-god-thing long before Jesus was even born. Or more LOL-worthy the remarkable comparison between images of Isis and the infant Horus, and Maria with the infant Jesus.

The film did much the same thing...and the assumption that all cultural similarities are a result of cultural diffusion is not one that I agree with at all. Different Cultures can and do develop similar things, not because of diffusion, but because we are all human and given the right conditions we will come up with similar things. However it is worse when you measure the obscurity of Akhenaton, with the massive time gap between the two religions. That further reinforces my belief that you didn't quite understand Christianity.

Then your comment about Mary (It's Mary in English...which only added to my confusion) and Jesus. That is only limited to the Catholic Church and its sister churches (Like the Orthodox and Egyptian Churches). Protestants and other Christians which comprise of hundreds of millions of people throughout the past five hundred years (And throw in ancient churches and groups like Arius' followers) are not guilty of that. Since the past post of yours was a total blanket "accusation" of some form of cultural theft, I merely concluded (Perhaps erroneously?) that you were talking about the entirety of Christianity.

The Zeitgeist reminded me of conspiracy theories, thus my Roswell comment.

Oh well... I could go on but I'll move that to the religious thread...

And now you can see why I expressed my desire for you to think more about what you are going to say, in other words do more research.


And thus why I posted what I did. Does that explain the intent and meaning behind the post? It wasn't an attempt to offend your intelligence, just annoyance at what I saw to be a hostile post made with limited understanding of Christianity.