The Political Discussion Thread

[Britta]

The Falklands don't have Argentinian natives.

Argentina wants to seize a bunch of islands that were never theirs, against the wishes of the entire population, and apparently we're the imperialistic ones. Besides, their claim to the Falklands has only ever been a bunch of jingoistic posturing to distract from issues at home.

[jelgate]

I think the point here is how its Europe's fault for enslaving all those innocent people in the Americas

[aretood2]

Did you just... Seriously? You have no idea about the history of the islands.

....Argentina wasn't even a country when Britain colonised the Falklands. Before that it was originally settled by the French.. Then the British and the Spanish..

Regardless of the history, that's the way Latin America sees it. The multiple claims and the conflict are simplified to good vs evil. Latin Americans like to see a simple case of an imperialist force taking stuff from the victimized natives (which is why they too see Israel as no different). It has nothing to do with history just as this anti-Israel bias has little to do with history and more to do with this narrative of imperialists vs natives that the world is worked up in.

The idea that we can finally stand up for the natives is a very attractive one. And Israel is a very attractive target. Everything from media coverage to the opinions of people outside of that region are mixed in the middle of it are simplifying the conflict to just that. Nevermind that the so called natives aren't exactly the poster-boy of oppressed people. With their penchant for ethnic cleansing/slaughtering of both native and immigrant Jews before the 1940's. Those people who did that, they raised their own kids, and those kids are alive today. That hate and murderous intent is not gone. That is what people in Israel fear.

And yes, I would disagree with Womble in a few areas regarding Israel's actions. He does seem to quick to attach to a facebook story (although it appears that he didn't share the details you asked for at first). Yes I am not a fan of the settlements. Yes I do feel that there are some "crimes" commited by Israel in the sense that they aren't playing nice. But unlike FH, I don't expect them to roll over like good Israelis so someone can slit their throughts.

Unlike FH, I don't expect people to NOT defend themselves with lethal projectiles are thrown at them in manners that can maim or kill. I mean, slingshots were used by an effective military unit in ancient times to KILL. Bullets and arrows made them obsolete. But it didn't make them any less lethal. So yes, soldiers will have to shot back (or throw cars).

If I were to sling rocks at you with slingshots and you had a hand gun and it was just you and me. Will you wait to see what will happen when I slug in the head, knocking you out (if not outright killing you)?

But no, that doesn't seem to matter. Their threats, their attacks, the statistics of their opinions, their voting records of placing terrorist organizations in charge of their government, all of that doesn't seem to matter. They are still poor oppressed natives attacked by European...erm...I mean....American...oops, I mean Israeli imperialists who shouldn't lift a finger to save their own lives. I mean, the last time Jews waited for others to save their lives worked out fine...right?

[aretood2]

The Falklands don't have Argentinian natives.

Argentina wants to seize a bunch of islands that were never theirs, against the wishes of the entire population, and apparently we're the imperialistic ones. Besides, their claim to the Falklands has only ever been a bunch of jingoistic posturing to distract from issues at home.

Empty islands simultaneously colonized by France and England without (most likely) knowledge of each other's settlements. France handed the land over to Spain, England abandoned its settlement but left its claim on the islands. For a while the only government (active) was Spanish. Napoleonic wars stared and in the fighting the British kicked out Spanish forces. Upon independence, Argentina laid claim to the Spanish claim of those islands.

Argentina's claims are weak at best. But that hasn't stopped the Spanish speaking Americas from saying any different. It hasn't stopped the issue from opening old wounds. And the fact simply don't seem to matter. This isn't a case of imperialism at all in reality. It's a case of two conflicting claims to the land by factions that both claim to be the original inhabitants (Or at least claim legal standing to own it). Sound familiar?

[garhkal]

Something from my Facebook feed today, from a nurse in an Israeli hospital. She is a Moroccan Jew whose family speaks Arabic at home, so she is fluent in it. The Gaza Arabs who often get treated in a hospital do not expect the Israelis to understand them, so they speak freely among themselves.

Two Arab mothers from Gaza are chatting as they wait for their children to finish treatments. "My son has joined Hamas lately," says one of them. "I'll tell him to blow this place up".

An Arab family with a small child sits in the waiting room next to the Israeli families. The father speaks some Hebrew, the mother none at all, but they get along fine, smile, communicate, share the food they brought with them. The Arab mother takes a watermelon out of her bag, and gives her little son a knife. "Come on," she says in Arabic, "cut it like you stab a Jew. Go ahead, slaughter the Jew!" An awkward moment follows: everyone in the room knows the meaning of "Yitbach al-Yahood".

Army medics have just brought in a group of Palestinian kids from Gaza. A five year old girl tells the nurse examining her: "When I grow up, I will kill you".

I think there's more truth in my signature than most people are comfortable with.

If i was in that hospice, i would be sorely tempted to NOT treat any of those people.

So, I can totally believe that such conversations DO happen in other countries with other languages, just as Womble said. I also personally know (have nurse acquaintance friends) and actually worked with several nurses who speak multiple languages, who have overheard conversations from various patients within their ear reach that have said various things --some nice, some quite nasty-- and never confronted those people, because it is against their job code to confront someone on working hours. Instead, they simply walked away and told their own coworkers/staff what was said. In that light, the staff was alerted to be very observant of anything even remotely connected to the conversation(s) that was overheard.

Hu? workers are told NOT to confront those speaking out against the place they are working in?


And in other news.. I saw this while surfing for news from Ben saunders..
http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_5635738

So cause of what happened, Saunders wants to stop honoring columbus?

[Falcon Horus]

I think the point here is how its Europe's fault for enslaving all those innocent people in the Americas

Europe is made up out of different countries, of which some didn't even exist at the time of the slave trade.

From the 15th to early 19th century, Portugal, Spain, the British Empire and the Dutch Empire (yet slavery was forbidden in The Netherlands, but not in the rest of the empire) were big on slavery and trading in slaves.

If i was in that hospice, i would be sorely tempted to NOT treat any of those people.

Good thing, you aren't then. As a Doctor you have taken an oath. As a nurse, you'd uphold the same.

And in other news.. I saw this while surfing for news from Ben saunders..
http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_5635738

So cause of what happened, Saunders wants to stop honoring columbus?

Columbus was not the first European to make it to the Americas. And he pretty much killed the poor natives with all of our European diseases. Yeah, who wouldn't want to celebrate that?

[jelgate]

I know this FH. I wasn't trying to generalize all of Europe just pointing out how certain European nations oppressed the people living in the Americas at the time

[Falcon Horus]

I know this FH. I wasn't trying to generalize all of Europe just pointing out how certain European nations oppressed the people living in the Americas at the time

Yes, you do. Others might not... although, I hope everyone in here does.

[Falcon Horus]

Looks like it's not just Palestinians that know how to handle a knife.

Four wounded in suspected revenge attack by Jew; Investigations are underway.

[SGalisa]

You reckon a hospital nurse would publish identifiable personal details of her patients on Facebook? Really now.

She works in the Soroka Medical Center in Beersheba. They treat a lot of Palestinians.

Reinforcement to the above situation --
Confidential patient information is usually verbotten from being shared with the public, unless the patient has permitted it to be shared. I think this is universal thruout most of the entire world.
And by *confidential* -- that means names, dates, times, addresses, all persons involved, subjects discussed, actions taken as follow-up, etc. Even in regular businesses, client info is considered verbotten to be shared and confidential -- same as in the medical fields.

Hu? workers are told NOT to confront those speaking out against the place they are working in?

Firstly, the situations I was referring to mostly occurred prior/before September 11, 2001. It wasn't until years later, when the whole USA was advised
"if you see something or hear something, report it!"

Not sure how different some facilities operate now, but most of what I was personally exposed to happened back in the 1990's. It still goes on now in some places, depending on how certain companies operate according to their handbook manuals of employee work ethics and etiquette, etc. (Also, within a NON-union or privately owned work environment.)

So, Yes, unless a situation was directly connected to the medical treatment of a patient in their care, the nursing staff was not supposed to engage in any potentially political (or *politically incorrect*) confrontation, if the situation might get the rest of the patient's family or other friends involved (specifically in a non-medical or financially related --to the treatment and quality of care provided-- lawsuit). Anything NON-medical was between the patient and their life outside of the medical facility, NOT between the medical facility and the rest of the world. If a situation warranted being confronted and (seriously) dealt with, the decision was up to the Administrators to confront the patient and/or their family/guardian. Otherwise, mouths were kept shut. Those who did not heed that advice often got fired, regardless of how good they did their medical treatments.

It's called medical politics. It does exist in some portions of this world, including within the USA. There were rumors about various "mafia" types of personnel existing within this particular facility's (executive) pecking order, so naturally, most of the *underlings* staff (lower level workers) kept their mouths SHUT. That included clerical and other non-medical personnel, too. I personally saw too many staff people walking away after hush-hush conversations with their expressions stating -- "I know nuthing!!!"

I've heard similar stories also from other medical places too, from various staff persons working in those places, too.
Same old, same old... nothing changes except the scenery and cast of characters.

[SGalisa]

Wow. I think the below article speaks for itself. Of course the person who wrote it, might get some flack from his fellow Arabs.
(bold font emphasis mine)

"I am embarrassed to be an Arab"
by Fred Maroun
October 8, 2015, 8:02 pm
(© 2015 The Times of Israel, All rights reserved.)


I have long resisted saying this, but the ongoing Arab violence in Jerusalem has pushed Arab idiocy beyond my capacity for tolerance. I now need to say it and to say it publicly: I am embarrassed to be an Arab.

From the start, we have refused to accept the existence of one tiny Jewish state. We fought that state tooth and nail using all the venom and anti-Semitism that we could muster. We isolated and mistreated our own Palestinian siblings so we could use them as tools against the Jews. We have not relented. We have not shown an ounce of compassion, humanity, or even smarts. We made the destruction of the Jewish home our signature cause. We made hate our religion. When will this nonsense stop?

...
We created Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Qaeda, Daesh, and scores of other terrorist groups. We also created generations of tyrannical dictatorships across the Middle East. Some of those dictatorships are the best we can show for in a world that sees us as leeches incapable of building democracies or even economies.

Jerusalem belongs to the Jews, not only because it is rightfully theirs, but also because we don’t deserve any of it. Those of us Arabs who live in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza, would long ago have been deported if Jews behaved like us.
...

[epg20]

Looks like it's not just Palestinians that know how to handle a knife.

Four wounded in suspected revenge attack by Jew; Investigations are underway.

you remember how you thought I meant to kill every one in the nation Israel in option 2, well that is starting to look pretty good right about now, a horror bigger than the scale of 9-11 it most certainly get the attention of the world and make them see what horror really looks like, un like the movies from the 1940's from the holocaust, this would be , to quote the joker from the justice league cartoon," LIVE AND IN COLOR", and not to mention with todays TV's, IN HIGH DEF, watching a baby being blown to pieces in high def, might just turn the worlds stomach enough to force them to force Israel and the Palestinians to come to some sort of agreement, before everyone on both sides is killed that is.

or not, who knows.

[Falcon Horus]

...watching a baby being blown to pieces in high def, might just turn the worlds stomach enough to force them to force Israel and the Palestinians to come to some sort of agreement, before everyone on both sides is killed that is.

I fear with all the violence we have so far been served by the Israel/Palestine conflict, the Civil War in Syria, the many dead refugees washing up on the beaches of Turkey and Greece, and the horrors inflicted by IS, that even the dead body of a wee babe will not make the world turn their heads.

If it's not happening in our backyards, then why should we care that people are killing eachother over land and/or religious believes?

Latest victim in Israel is apparently a pregnant woman and her daughter, after an air raid by Israel. They missed the Hamas training camp, but I'm sure there will be enough Jews celebrating at least this one less terrorist being born.

And a woman tried to blow herself up on the West Bank, but either her belt didn't behave according to instructions or the Israeli's managed to duck out of harm's way in time for she was the only one badly injured, and most likely dead by now, while a police officer was lightly injured, whatever that means - did he get burned, or did he singe his eyebrows, who knows.

Maybe it's better if we simply ignored them. Let's pull out every bit of aid, boycot every economic effort to help both parties, and let them have each other's throats. And see how long it takes for Israel to blow Gaza and the West Bank back to the Middle Ages. And perhaps, they should pass that Jewish State Bill too... It suits them.

[Womble]

Latest victim in Israel is apparently a pregnant woman and her daughter, after an air raid by Israel. They missed the Hamas training camp, but I'm sure there will be enough Jews celebrating at least this one less terrorist being born.

Here's a challenge - if you're so sure, find some. If you can't, take it back.

[Womble]

The Falklands don't have Argentinian natives.

Argentina wants to seize a bunch of islands that were never theirs, against the wishes of the entire population, and apparently we're the imperialistic ones. Besides, their claim to the Falklands has only ever been a bunch of jingoistic posturing to distract from issues at home.

Actually, as the heir to former Spanish colonies in South America, Argentina does have a good claim on the Falklands. Rich as it is for a colonial creation to accuse anyone of colonizing.

But here's a much more interesting, and for Europe much more uncomfortable example - Turkish occupation of Northern Cyprus. You'd think it would concern the Europeans much more than "Palestine", wouldn't you?

A large piece of territory (37%) of a European Union state is under military occupation. Hundreds of thousands of Greek Cypriots who have been ethnically cleansed from that territory remain refugees, and nobody champions their "right of return", let alone makes it inheritable as is the case of the Palestinians. (They also don't count migrant workers as refugees for the Greek Cypriots, while for the Palestinians anyone who was living or working in the general vicinity of war for two or more years is counted). The occupying state isn't subject to any kind of boycott and is not being discussed in the UN at all, let alone being singled out as a separate agenda item to be brought in in every single session of UNHRC. In fact, the occupying state is slowly but surely working its way into EU membership, and it's settlers enjoy both the privileges of EU citizenship and financial assistance from the EU instead of opprobium.

Try and take on that.