The Political Discussion Thread

[jelgate]

Adults of what species?

Don't be obtuse when you know the answer

[Annoyed]

Don't be obtuse when you know the answer

I'm reasonably certain of my own species. It's the other inmates of this asylum I wonder about.

[Falcon Horus]

@Pooky - your bugs-signature ... I love it. Just the kind of humor I needed today (as I probably flunked my C# exam).

Javascript?

I don't see it as a bubble of safety. I see it as I'm already living in the best country on the face of the Earth, why would I wish to go elsewhere. I realize others may not share those views of the US, but they are mine.

For someone living in the best country in the world, you sure do a lot of complaining. Unless that was sarcasm.

[Annoyed]

Nothing's perfect. This place has its flaws, and I think the country is in decline. But it's still the best in my obviously biased opinion.

[aretood2]

Womble. How long then does someone 'get to live here and be considered a 'new immigrant' before we then start saying OK you have been here long enough these translation services are no longer going to be provided to you?

Technically, you could (as in YOU garhkal) request translation services...not that they'd be of any use to you...or me. While I grew up Bilingual, like the vast majority of my peers, English is my dominant language. Getting translation services would actually be counterproductive for me as it would make it harder for me to understand what needs to be understood.

At 200 Bil, yes it would.
BUT i also call BS on that figure.
Looking around the web, there are several sites stating that the US-Mexico border is 1000 miles long. So at 200 bil, that makes each MILE of wall, 200 Million dollars in cost. Sorry, but what the fark are they making that wall out of???
I can maybe see 20-30 thousand dollars a mile for a wall.

Take all of the stuff SGalisa said, the response to her post about beefing up the wall and everything PH said and add it up, double the mileage and the 200 billion makes more sense. Why do you think extremely large properties favor chain linked fences? Because walls, secured walls with the features needed for the border, are ridiculously expensive.

How's about go to school? Are not most of these south American nations similar to the US/Europe in that Schooling is free (up to college)?

And how many Argentine or Chilean immigrants (legal or otherwise) are flooding the US exactly? Including legal and illegal immigrants, there are only 2.7 million South Americans in the US, and they tend to be much more educated and proficient in English. Overall they compose 7% of the total immigrant population. So actually...yes...they do go to those European style schools and learn English (not to your impossible standards of absolute fluency, but they learn it as well as anyone can by attending English classes).

Ok for ya, here it is again (well one of the links and a snippet from it)
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...s-civil-cases/

"The state has about seven million residents with limited English proficiency who speak over 200 languages."

Limited proficiency does not equal "don't know English." A novice level of proficiency is capable of having simple conversations necessary for unskilled work, basic navigation and shopping, common everyday language. An intermediate level (the result of College classes and a semester abroad) is a low level fluency. Can converse with an adequate level of comprehension on some complex topics and situations...but not for a complicated interaction with the government where any bit of misinformation can lead to prosecution. That's the limited profeciency. Most students who spend years studying a foreign language don't leave the intermediate level. Native speakers exist on the Advanced level right above it. You have to have a real gift for language or have studied it for many many many years while living in an area that speaks it to be able to get near that (and that's with an accent).

When that is both what i see and what is told to me FtF, then how can i NOT have confirmation Bias?

I am confused...do you know what that means?

Then why was it reported several years back, that CAUSE of the flood of illegals, several hospitals have had to close down due to lack of funds, after having to eat the cost OF serving those illegals?
And with several estimates showing 20-30% of those IN prisons are illegal immigrants, caught for other crimes, how can anyone say that is not raising our crime levels?

Sources please. I ask because I did provide CATO as my source. If you want links, give me time and I can give you links and you can read the studies and articles yourself.

So none of these countries offer English in their schools? With the # of US expats who have Emigrated to some of these central/south American countries to teach at those schools i find that hard to believe..

People who have the luxury to go to schools long enough to actually attain a level of schooling either do learn English (though not to fluency) and then come to the US or simply find employment in their own nation or go to another English speaking nation or another nation where English will serve them well for employment.

While millions who come here don't know English beyond a novice level, millions of other do know almost to an intermediate level (they just lack the immersion which they'll attain by living in the US). Don't forget, millions do come here with some level of English comprehension and proficiency. The immigrant population is really really huge. 7 Million Californians barely makes 10% (much less I think) of the entire population. And remember, many of those 7 million know some level of English, just not fluent or intermediate.

Then perhaps just building a wall/fence itself is not enough. It needs to go deep (or as i have advocated several times, DITCH the border, build a rampart on our side, THEN put the wall on top of that.. And since we have sensors to monitor seismic activity, why not have those along the border to detect those tunnels being build..??

With a wall/ditch up, we should need less to watch the border itself, and have more to concentrate ON those entrance points, so that avenue of smuggling would get lessened.
But then if we also stopped one of the biggest draws (the handouts and money they can make here by hammering down on those who hire illegals), imo that will itself act as a stopper to a good chunk of those smuggling into the country. NOT all i agree. BUT a chunk of it.

200 billion dollars. Each suggestion just keeps upping the cost. And for what? Latin American immigration in general is in decline with African and East Asian on the rise. East Asian immigration is skyrocketing (especially the illegal kind). And studies also show that immigrants don't tend to chase after welfare...they tend to go to states with less welfare. (CATO again. I mean there are Liberal groups that say the some thing, but I guess you'd be more friendly to Libertarian groups. Some conservative groups are out there, but minor.)

Last time I checked, U.S. citizens didn't get free translators for legalese either. They are called lawyers, and are very expensive.

There are two barriers for the none-native speaker in dealing with the government. One, the legalize everyone has to deal with. And two, the language barrier. A translator doesn't get rid of both barriers. They just get rid of the language barrier. A none-native speaker will still have to struggle through the legalese in their own language just like the English native speaker will.

You're spouting nonsense, plain and simple. There is but one reason why providing services in languages other than English would bother you, and that is jealousy. "You were there first", and you want to rig the rules to stay on top and keep the newcomers down while blaming them for failing to adapt under these rules. It's completely stupid and wasteful, it's not in the best interests of your country, but the pride of the native-born is above pragmatism, isn't it?

I don't think it's just jealousy. It's scapegoating plain and simple. The big scary brown Hispanic despite the changes in rates of immigration, legal or otherwise. Despite the facts, despite the record low border crossings. It's still all about Hispanics and their blasphemous Spanish language.

What's the logical conclusion of that thought process? This link has it. A man beaten brutally after being urinated on by two brothers. The reason? The brothers thought he was "an illegal" and thus deserved the beating and defecation. Why did they think he was an illegal immigrant? Because he was Hispanic. Turns out that the victim wasn't an illegal immigrant. Oh, and they invoked Donald Trump.

These sort of attacks have been going on for decades and each time someone gets up to call hispanics rapists or some other generalizations they keep happening.

Say what you want about George W Bush. But after 9/11 he made it abundantly clear that Americans who were Muslim were not the enemy. The only think Trump and his ilk have made clear is that Hispanics don't want to learn English, they are illegal, they are criminals and rapists, they cause crime and chaos, and they are destroying America.

[Womble]

I don't see it as a bubble of safety. I see it as I'm already living in the best country on the face of the Earth, why would I wish to go elsewhere.

My, are you in for a shock...

[garhkal]

If you build a wall 1000 miles long, then anyone crossing the border will just go around it The border is 1930-1950 miles long.

As i said, when i looked up "How long is the border' the first 3 hits i got all said around 1000 miles..

How about a refugee from a country afflicted by war or starvation who never planned to leave his homeland but is forced to do it in order to survive - how realistic is it to expect them to "come prepared"?

While i understand (and agree there), i think Annoyed is more focused on those who come here 'looking for economic betterance of their life)..

It's easy to say "I could learn another language if I wanted to" when you're not in a position where you need to do so. You absolutely should travel outside your little bubble of safety. It will make you realise how much more complicated the world really is. If you have first hand experience of other cultures, see how they live. You might understand their situation a little better.

Agreed/ Heck when i went through the English schooling system, we actually were required to learn 2 additional languages (one in Middle school, equivalent to Jr High, and one in upper school (high).
I took French for my middle school teachings, and German for the Upper school. Even to this day there are still some phrases i remember. BUT give me a newspaper, and i'd be damned if i could read more than 5% of it..

Technically, you could (as in YOU garhkal) request translation services...not that they'd be of any use to you...or me. While I grew up Bilingual, like the vast majority of my peers, English is my dominant language. Getting translation services would actually be counterproductive for me as it would make it harder for me to understand what needs to be understood.

Interesting. So in that case where it was told to me by one of the Hiring managers, i "needed" to speak fluent Spanish to have a chance in hell to have gotten the job in Houston, i could have asked for an Interpreter? How well do you think that would have gone down??

Take all of the stuff SGalisa said, the response to her post about beefing up the wall and everything PH said and add it up, double the mileage and the 200 billion makes more sense. Why do you think extremely large properties favor chain linked fences? Because walls, secured walls with the features needed for the border, are ridiculously expensive.

Prob i see is, from MANY tv clips on various news networks (mostly fox i will admit), those 'chain link fences do little if anything to keep the illegals from crossing..

And how many Argentine or Chilean immigrants (legal or otherwise) are flooding the US exactly? Including legal and illegal immigrants, there are only 2.7 million South Americans in the US, and they tend to be much more educated and proficient in English.

THen from which Central/south American nations are most of (the non mid east-far east) illegal immigrants coming from (which is iirc where a good chunk of CA's illegal population is from..?

I am confused...do you know what that means?

Had to look it up.. I guess i MIGHT be under it then.

Sources please. I ask because I did provide CATO as my source. If you want links, give me time and I can give you links and you can read the studies and articles yourself.

Give me a day or so, let me see what i can dredge up on those hospital shuttings..

[garhkal]

Got one.. Doing a quick search came up with
http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000060.html

Here's a nice article from the New York Times on the recent announcement by Northridge Hospital Medical Center that they will be closing by December 31.

This follows a recent announcement of the closure of the emergency room at Elastar Community Hospital in East Los Angeles.

Four other emergency rooms have closed in the county in the last two years. The reason given is the high cost of treating uninsured people. The article also states that 70 hospital emergency rooms and trauma centers have closed in California since 1990.

"We're mandated to treat anyone who comes in through those doors, regardless of their ability to pay," Tracey Veal, a spokeswoman for the Northridge hospital, said.

Ms. Veal estimated that the hospital had spent $13 million on so-called charity care in the fiscal year that ended on June 30.

While the New York Times does not exactly specify illegal aliens as the cause, it is quite obvious by these numbers.

[Womble]

[COLOR=#000080]I don't think it's just jealousy. It's scapegoating plain and simple. The big scary brown Hispanic despite the changes in rates of immigration, legal or otherwise. Despite the facts, despite the record low border crossings. It's still all about Hispanics and their blasphemous Spanish language.

What's the logical conclusion of that thought process? This link has it. A man beaten brutally after being urinated on by two brothers. The reason? The brothers thought he was "an illegal" and thus deserved the beating and defecation. Why did they think he was an illegal immigrant? Because he was Hispanic. Turns out that the victim wasn't an illegal immigrant. Oh, and they invoked Donald Trump.

These sort of attacks have been going on for decades and each time someone gets up to call hispanics rapists or some other generalizations they keep happening.

Say what you want about George W Bush. But after 9/11 he made it abundantly clear that Americans who were Muslim were not the enemy. The only think Trump and his ilk have made clear is that Hispanics don't want to learn English, they are illegal, they are criminals and rapists, they cause crime and chaos, and they are destroying America.

Truth be told, USA is far from being the most attractive place for immigrants right now. Compared to Western Europe, assistance provided to immigrants is meager, social security is barely there, healthcare access is awful. For a man in his 40-s or older, who has no savings in the local pension funds, it's a rather hard proposition. Were it not for proximity factor, I have a feeling that many Mexicans would much prefer Canada.

[Gatefan1976]

there you go...........
BLAME CANADA!!!

[Pharaoh Hamenthotep]

Here's a crazy idea.. Instead of building an economy-ruining wall to keep the evil immigrants out, why not work with the governments of their own countries to improve living conditions where ever it is they're all coming from?

They're risking everything to get to the US for a better life, right? But if their homelands were made more appealing, if they had a sense of purpose there, and a quality of life that compares to what they hope to achieve in the US, wouldn't that give them more reason to want to stay where they are?

Wouldn't that solve the immigration crisis, help stabilise economies (the young working age folks aren't all leaving) and create a better world for everyone?

But it involves people working together for the good of others, so it will probably never happen..

[Annoyed]

Here's a crazy idea.. Instead of building an economy-ruining wall to keep the evil immigrants out, why not work with the governments of their own countries to improve living conditions where ever it is they're all coming from?

They're risking everything to get to the US for a better life, right? But if their homelands were made more appealing, if they had a sense of purpose there, and a quality of life that compares to what they hope to achieve in the US, wouldn't that give them more reason to want to stay where they are?

Wouldn't that solve the immigration crisis, help stabilise economies (the young working age folks aren't all leaving) and create a better world for everyone?

But it involves people working together for the good of others, so it will probably never happen..

Should not that task be laid at the feet of the Mexican government?

[Pharaoh Hamenthotep]

Should not that task be laid at the feet of the Mexican government?

Who said anything about Mexicans?

Maybe the great and wise Annoyed can help point them in the right direction. Working together is the key. You want them out. So help them want to stay out.

[aretood2]

Got one.. Doing a quick search came up with
http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000060.html

That's not a clear example. It just mentions uninsured. At the time of that article's writing especially, millions of Americans are uninsured in general. I have a hard time following the article's logic and don't understand how they extrapolated that there's a large chunk of illegal immigrants ranking up the costs.

I have something from the RAND corporation (in case people are getting tired of CATO links) regarding this issue that I find interesting. Linky.

Yeah there's some (Though a whole lot less than is reported by..."certain sources") money loss there. But it would be lost regardless of their legal status because...face it. America isn't the place that insures everyone. Either the health care system needs some major overhaul or a form of universal care is needed. Obamacare is just a horrible patchwork that only managed to insure a portion of the uninsured so it's not like that solved anything yet.

Truth be told, USA is far from being the most attractive place for immigrants right now. Compared to Western Europe, assistance provided to immigrants is meager, social security is barely there, healthcare access is awful. For a man in his 40-s or older, who has no savings in the local pension funds, it's a rather hard proposition. Were it not for proximity factor, I have a feeling that many Mexicans would much prefer Canada.

Most immigrants come here because they hear that it is easy to get a job and make a good deal of money. Many are told that you can sweep up money on the streets. Find a job, stick with it and send some money back. Save some more money on the side. And return home with enough money to invest in some venture to improve your lot in life. So many come here with that in mind only to find out that Uncle Sam takes a great deal of your cash through something they are not familiar with (income tax). Then they find out that things simply cost more in the US. Then they realize that the language barrier is truly a barrier. And all of a sudden they are stuck here in a never ending loop than can easily be destroyed by an illness.

People who understand that still figure that it is better to work and live in the US (jobs are still more plenty and secure) than stay in Mexico. So they know what they are getting themselves into. Thus the decline in immigration from Mexico over the past decade, and it doesn't seem to be stopping. Still a lot of people are coming though. But yeah, if given the choice many would go to where jobs are increasingly secure as well as their income (being insulated by the devastating effects of illness).

Canada is more attractive because an illness won't spell certain doom. And there's currently (though they are there) no prominent Trump like figures calling everyone a rapist or something. But above all, immigrants simply want good paying jobs that are secure.

[Gatefan1976]

Who said anything about Mexicans?

Maybe the great and wise Annoyed can help point them in the right direction. Working together is the key. You want them out. So help them want to stay out.

The Mexican rapist drug runners need to work with the criminal justice department.