The Political Discussion Thread

[SoulReaver]

w
but in a flat tax system the government would be getting revenue at the same percentage rate from everyone (which I very much doubt would be as high as 50% like Reaver seems to think)

even 5% can be colossal for a low income

incidentally you got the definitions wrong, what you described ain't a flat tax (that would be a proportionate tax)
a flat tax is the same amount for all, not same percentage. say, everyone pays $1000 tax each year regardless of income

example time: let's say for example R = 15%

let's say for one person I = $20,000/yr, in this case A = 20,000 x 0.15 = $3000 tax bill for the year

now let's say for another person I = $500,000/yr, in this case A = 500,000 x 0.15 = 75,000 in taxes for the year

so the higher income person still pays out more in taxes than the person making less money

in other words the higher income person still has (considerably) more sway albeit a bit less so than with the previous system but the problems you mentioned remain so the system fails and only results in widening wealth disparity whilst still maintaining the wealthiest in power

so going by your reasoning the only way for everyone to have the same influence on government would be a true flat tax (fixed $ amount for every person). lol

[Womble]

Did you know that Jacob Rothschild has obtained the patent to a cutting edge computer chip used in advanced weaponry, recently, after the other potential share holders died in that plane that went missing out in the ocean. The patent hadn't yet been issued when the plane was lost, but it was while it was lost. It wasn't 'found' until after the patent had been issued, and since all the other claimants were dead, the patent fell solely to Rothschild. Do you really think that was a coincidence? The so called 1% are actually puppets of the .01%. Most of them are related after centuries of intermarriage, the royals and financial elite of Europe. This past year, a 12 year old girl discovered that 42 out of the 43 Presidents we have had (including Obama) were ALL descended from British Royalty. Even George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. Does anyone really believe that is just a coincidence? That isn't to say that all of our Presidents were mere puppets to the British Crown or anything, as I believe some of them did try to resist the power of the Bankers, and were probably better able to do so in the past. I believe Lincoln and John F Kennedy were both assassinated because they had attempted to do the right thing.

The Bankers have been waging a covert war against this country since its inception. Did you know that the Federal Reserve is the THIRD (and longest lasting) Central Bank this Nation has had? There were two that existed before it. The first one's charter had ended in 1812, and the Congress refused to renew it, resulting in the war of 1812 where the British burned Washington DC. The second was destroyed by Andrew Jackson who was himself nearly assassinated during the struggle. It was in fact, the main platform he had ran on. Finally, in 1912 (I think), J.P. Morgan, Rockefeller, and others met in secret on Jeckel Island and basically wrote the Federal Reserve charter, and several Constitutional Amendments. They bought Woodrow Wilson's election and he signed those things into law for them. Those amendments included the Federal Income Tax, and the change of how U.S. Senators were put into office.

Originally, U.S. Senators were appointed by the State Legislatures rather than voted for by the general public. This was so that the States could maintain control over the Senators and make sure that they did what the States wanted, rather than whatever they wanted to do on their own, as they do now. This removed one of the most powerful checks and balances between the Federal and State governments, and allowed corruption to become more easily spread among the national politicians. Before, the States could have pulled the Senator if they did things the States didn't like, now they are elected only once every 6 years, and do not answer to the State governments at all. Since they no longer answer to the State government, they can do whatever they like without fear of being removed from office by said State governments. They just need to keep hoodwinking the people that don't pay as much attention to their actions as other politicians would.

One of the Elder Rothschilds (now dead) once said, that he didn't care about who made the laws, so long as he controlled the money of a nation. J.P. Morgan had been a lieutenant of the Rothschilds (the infamous banking family), and now the Federal Reserves prints the U.S. money, unconstitutionally. It is supposed to be the U.S. Treasury that does this. JFK had tried to have the Treasury to start printing Greenbacks again, but he was assassinated 6 months after he signed the executive order, and Lyndon B Johnson revoked the order after he became President.

Our government 'borrows' money from the Federal Reserve by issuing Bonds (nothing more than worthless pretty pieces of paper), and then the Federal Reserve prints the money (also worthless paper with pictures on it) and loans the money to the government 'with interest' on money they create out of nothing. In reality, every cent that gets paid in taxes NEVER reaches the Federal Government, it all goes to the Federal Reserve (which is NOT a part of the government; it is a private bank) to pay off that interest. Every cent that the Government spends (on the military, social programs, etc) is ALL borrowed money from the Bank. This is why the U.S. Dollar has dropped in value steadily since 1913.

I am waiting to hear about where shapeshifting purple-tentacled aliens fit into all of this.

[mad_gater]

even 5% can be colossal for a low income

incidentally you got the definitions wrong, what you described ain't a flat tax (that would be a proportionate tax)
a flat tax is the same amount for all, not same percentage. say, everyone pays $1000 tax each year regardless of income


in other words the higher income person still has (considerably) more sway albeit a bit less so than with the previous system but the problems you mentioned remain so the system fails and only results in widening wealth disparity whilst still maintaining the wealthiest in power

so going by your reasoning the only way for everyone to have the same influence on government would be a true flat tax (fixed $ amount for every person). lol

you're still not understanding I see...what matter is that everyone's paying the same percentage of their income in a flat income tax system....the fact that some people have more income than others is besides the point...but since the same percentage is going TO government in taxes from EVERYONE, so it wouldn't be as bad

not a perfect system by any means, esp. as it is still based on income so could still be subject to the same abuse by higher income earners, but at least it would be a far simpler system instead of our current income tax system which is based on multiple standards (i.e.,the different percentages for different people based on their income kind of thing)....this is why I said I'd rather have a system based on consumption rather than income...a FLAT consumption tax rate (essentially the same principle as a sales tax)....since EVERYONE buys stuff, EVERYONE would still be paying into the system in some capacity...I was merely outlining a possible compromise...a flat income tax would still satisfy people of the "fleece the successful" mindset while being a far simpler system than our current income tax system...I may not have done a good job stating it before but that's what I was getting at

a system based on consumption (basically how much you pay in taxes is dependent on how much you buy, agian essentially like a sales tax) would certainly satisfy the freedom-lovers amongst us

even the consumption tax system though could still be open to abuse, in this case by the people who can afford to spend more....again as I said no system is perfect but at least have a more efficient system that doesn't need a bloated bureaucracy (i.e., the IRS) to oversee it

[Coco Pops]

My friend, I used to think like you do. However, I've come to understand how things really work. If our government even remotely served us, and if elections even remotely mattered, what you're suggesting might be valid. However, nearly our entire government is bought and paid for by the .01% (not the 1%), and any President you get to vote for is already preselected, so no matter whether you vote Republican or Democrat, they will work for the same people, and those people are NOT 'The People' of the U.S. Taxes AREN'T the issue. The .01% don't pay taxes at all, Flat or otherwise. Nor will they ever. As long as we live in a monetary system, they will continue to be in power.

Please understand, THEY print the money you're talking about. The U.S. Government borrows money from THEM. THEY created the IRS, the Federal Reserve, and Federal Income Taxes. They don't pay the U.S. Government, the Government pays THEM. Just who do you think our Government is in debt too? I urge you to watch a half hour long free animated movie from youtube called "The American Dream". It is a lot of fun to watch, AND it is very educational too.

In any case, how are people going to pay taxes if Technological Unemployment continues unabated? The answer? They won't, because they won't have a job to pay them. Tech. Unemployment is increasing at a rate that nearly doubles every year. Many manufacturing companies have returned to the U.S., but most of the jobs didn't come back with them. They have become automated by machines that cost close to the same as a Chinese worker would be paid... roughly $3 per hour. Also, no vacation, sick leave, benefits, retirement, etc. Try and compete with that. The level of automation is getting so advanced that in a few decades there will be very few jobs left for the masses to even be able to compete for. Did you know that it is now possible to actually PRINT a pair of lungs? 3D Printers don't just use plastic; they can also use glass, metal, concrete, cloth, medication, and even bio matter, to make lungs, hearts, etc. Automated devices can actually make burgers, and other foods with no human intervention, with the possible exception of loading the ingredients into the machine. Vehicles being able to drive themselves is nearing completion and implementation. Many jobs you might think that robots can't replace humans with, can and have been.

Check out another youtube documentary called "Will work for free"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SuGRgdJA_c

What computer chip?

Oh great story bro....... would make a great movie.

uummm wanders off

[Coco Pops]

BTW I'm really hoping for a hostile senate when they sit in July here.... The current govt. and their blind ideology budget is just bad news for the country. Why is it si unevenly balanced, I have no idea. But it is what it is and can change in the Senate unless some backroom deals get done but that's the corruption that is government..

[Gatefan1976]

Welcome to the club. Its also way I don't bother watching the news on TV. Except maybe my local news

I don't "watch" the news per se, but I do have it on in the background while I am doing other stuff. Basically, if a anchor from a 24/7 news program is speaking, I tune out unless they are talking about a topic that interests me with a guest speaker. Normally though, I agree with you Jel, you watch the local half hour / hour news broadcast and you can keep informed about the basics of what is going on, then it is up to you to go investigate a story if you are interested. We have so much knowledge out our fingertips these days, and to see people only relying on one politically driven ideological viewpoint from what amounts to a bunch of well paid morons (no matter what side of the fence they are on) is actually pretty sad.

[Gatefan1976]

BTW I'm really hoping for a hostile senate when they sit in July here.... The current govt. and their blind ideology budget is just bad news for the country. Why is it si unevenly balanced, I have no idea. But it is what it is and can change in the Senate unless some backroom deals get done but that's the corruption that is government..

Dude, these clowns will not last long. The wave of approval following the "honeymoon period" is gone already and we are only 9 months into their term. Trying to follow "A'mmurica" on social policy won't be tolerated for very long out here. Strangely enough, you can thank a Liberal PM by way of Howard for that via Martin Bryant

[Coco Pops]

Dude, these clowns will not last long. The wave of approval following the "honeymoon period" is gone already and we are only 9 months into their term. Trying to follow "A'mmurica" on social policy won't be tolerated for very long out here. Strangely enough, you can thank a Liberal PM by way of Howard for that via Martin Bryant

sad but true

[SoulReaver]

you're still not understanding I see...what matter is that everyone's paying the same percentage of their income in a flat income tax system....the fact that some people have more income than others is besides the point...but since the same percentage is going TO government in taxes from EVERYONE, so it wouldn't be as bad

not a perfect system by any means, esp. as it is still based on income so could still be subject to the same abuse by higher income earners, but at least it would be a far simpler system instead of our current income tax system which is based on multiple standards (i.e.,the different percentages for different people based on their income kind of thing)....this is why I said I'd rather have a system based on consumption rather than income...a FLAT consumption tax rate (essentially the same principle as a sales tax)....since EVERYONE buys stuff, EVERYONE would still be paying into the system in some capacity...I was merely outlining a possible compromise...a flat income tax would still satisfy people of the "fleece the successful" mindset while being a far simpler system than our current income tax system...I may not have done a good job stating it before but that's what I was getting at

a system based on consumption (basically how much you pay in taxes is dependent on how much you buy, agian essentially like a sales tax) would certainly satisfy the freedom-lovers amongst us

even the consumption tax system though could still be open to abuse, in this case by the people who can afford to spend more....again as I said no system is perfect but at least have a more efficient system that doesn't need a bloated bureaucracy (i.e., the IRS) to oversee it

then you still missed the point
the percentage ain't what counts - it's the amount that does

[Seastallion]

machines might be able to handle the administrative end of things and customer service and food service end of things but machines have one glaring limitation, their lack of capacity to think outside the box....meaning that machines are limited by their lines of code....so in such jobs requiring an "outside the box" though process human beings have the advantage...not to mention human beings have that personal touch that no machine can duplicate

for example I'm graduating from a 1-year program where I studied to become a NYS-licensed (and perhaps one day nationally certified) massage therapist....there is no possible way any machine could duplicate human healing touch to the extent required in the field of massage therapy

I agree that machines can't generally do things that require creativity or critical thinking, however the vast majority of jobs available in the world don't fall under those qualifications, and CAN be automated. I suggest you check out the documentary on youtube called "Will work for Free". It is eye opening, as I don't think most people realize the sheer level of automation that exist today, and is expected to exist in the near future.

I am waiting to hear about where shapeshifting purple-tentacled aliens fit into all of this.

The Term “conspiracy theorist” is a label used by the establishment to dismiss the idea that powerful people might get together and actually plan anything. -George Carlin

"Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice . . . you don’t. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own, and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying . . . lobbying, to get what they want . . . Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I’ll tell you what they don’t want . . . they don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that . . . that doesn’t help them. That’s against their interests. That’s right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting [bleeped] by a system that threw them overboard 30 [bleeping] years ago. They don’t want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers . . . Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly [bleepier] jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it, and now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your [bleeping] retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street, and you know something? They’ll get it . . . they’ll get it all from you sooner or later cause they own this [bleeping] place. It’s a big club and you ain't in it. You and I are not in The big club. By the way, it’s the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table has tilted folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. Good honest hard-working people . . . white collar, blue collar it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good honest hard-working people continue, these are people of modest means . . . continue to elect these rich [Bleep-Bleepers] who don’t give a [bleep] about you. They don’t give a [bleep] about you . . . they don’t give a [bleep] about you. They don’t care about you at all . . . at all . . . at all, and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. That’s what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue [bleep] that’s being jammed up their [bleep] everyday, because the owners of this country know the truth. It’s called the American Dream cause you have to be asleep to believe it . . .” -George Carlin

What computer chip?

Oh great story bro....... would make a great movie.

uummm wanders off

There is a lot of speculation about all the weirdness around that lost flight. At this point who knows the truth? I certainly don't. As they say, something stinks about the whole thing. I know I don't trust the mainstream media, as they either outright lie, misrepresent the truth, or simply don't report it. They may tell the truth about something as long as it doesn't go against their agenda. All the major media outlets are owned by about 4 different corporations, including Reuters, which most of the media gets their ques from.

Meanwhile, Law Enforcement are extorting money from the public for minor infractions (not always proved, but that's okay, who needs proof?), and if you attempt to peacefully assemble and seek redress of your grievances the police are being empowered to act as jack-booted thugs... resembling the Nazis. Did you know that many police departments these days are listed as corporations? That's right, that means they exist to make money, and no other reason. Certainly not to protect and serve. I'm not saying that all law enforcement people are bad, but they are clearly part of organizations which those in power use to enforce their will on the masses.

But, no big deal...

[P-90_177]

Coincidences happen and planes crash. On top of that the number of planes that have simply disappeared over the years is equally as astonishing. It's strangely comforting in a way. It shows that the world isn't quite as small as we believe it to be these days. Is it odd? Yes. Potentially sinister? Beyond the prospect of a terrorist heist, I severely doubt it.

[mad_gater]

then you still missed the point
the percentage ain't what counts - it's the amount that does

actually, when you think about it....either a flat income tax system or a flat consumption tax system would satisfy both aspects of what people would consider a fair system

it would satisfy the people who rightly think the system would be more fair if everyone paid the same percentage and would still satisfy the people who rightly think that those who make more should pay a higher amount....it's actually a worthy compromise...the wealthy still paying a higher amount but NOT a higher rate like in our current system

and with either system there's the added benefit of getting rid of probably at least 80 - 90% of the IRS as you wouldn't need nearly as much bureaucracy to oversee a flat tax no deductions allowed system

as for Gatefan's argument that, if I'm boiling it down right, a lower income person has a harder time paying bills and buying stuff than a higher person, it largely depends on how many people he's trying to support

a person might be making $20,000/yr but if he's only got himself to support then $20,000/yr minus the 15% flat tax rate from my example would still be sufficient for him to live a decent life on as long as he shops around for good prices on everything

now if a person is trying to support a family of say 4 on $20,000/yr....then yeah I'd say he should start looking for a job within his skill set that pays better or go back to school to learn new skills that are higher in demand in the job market and obviously get some help with basic necessities (food, clothing, housing, etc.) in the meantime

[Seastallion]

I'm less concerned with that missing plane, then all of the problems that exist without the ambiguities of mystery. There is no question we can do things better than we do. There is no question that government and private forces aren't serving the people as they should. We have a host of problems that have only been getting worse, and we keep being told that everything is fine, and that better things are on the way. Except that things aren't fine, and they haven't been getting any better.

In the U.S. we have a President that many had hoped would be the mark of a new beginning, only to have him be as bad or worse than his predecessors on the same sort of things his supporters had hated about the government. Some still blindly follow him, making excuses for him, or more often, simply ignoring what has been going on. I, on the other hand, don't really blame Obama. He is a symptom of what is wrong, not the cause. Even if McCain or Romney had won, things wouldn't be all that different. They all work for the same people.

Here is a former Obama supporter that woke up, and saw the truth...

[P-90_177]

now if a person is trying to support a family of say 4 on $20,000/yr....then yeah I'd say he should start looking for a job within his skill set that pays better or go back to school to learn new skills that are higher in demand in the job market and obviously get some help with basic necessities (food, clothing, housing, etc.) in the meantime

Out of curiosity mad_gater, what do you earn in a year? Cos to quote a well known internet meme "AIN'T NOBODY GOT TIME FOR THAT!"

I'm less concerned with that missing plane, then all of the problems that exist without the ambiguities of mystery. There is no question we can do things better than we do. There is no question that government and private forces aren't serving the people as they should. We have a host of problems that have only been getting worse, and we keep being told that everything is fine, and that better things are on the way. Except that things aren't fine, and they haven't been getting any better.

In the U.S. we have a President that many had hoped would be the mark of a new beginning, only to have him be as bad or worse than his predecessors on the same sort of things his supporters had hated about the government. Some still blindly follow him, making excuses for him, or more often, simply ignoring what has been going on. I, on the other hand, don't really blame Obama. He is a symptom of what is wrong, not the cause. Even if McCain or Romney had won, things wouldn't be all that different. They all work for the same people.

Here is a former Obama supporter that woke up, and saw the truth...

That's merely the realities of a capitalist state. Also the realities of a communist state funnily enough. We live in a world where the status quo is encouraged but not to the point where it's unchangeable. Civilizations in the past lasted for thousands of years with minimal change. To my mind we are starting to come to an end of this current merry-go-round. Which makes sense given that we are at the dawn of a new century with brand new technology. The way we converse and share ideas is completely different to how we did a century ago. And while there is a current re-trend in nationalist tendencies lately, the general way the world is moving is towards a much more global mentality than ever before. The simple fact of the matter is that our governments, our corporations and our legal systems still lag behind because they are still operating in an older style methodology. A lot of that has to do with the fact that people fear change.

Don't get me wrong. People want things to be different. They want us all to live in happy, safe, free lives where we can all do what we want to do, within reason. But at the same time people generally want that change to come within the boundaries of the familiar. This isn't surprising. Long gone are the days when change came easily because the structures and systems we have in place are more complicated than they were before. To take them down would be to bring about potential chaos, and so it will be too in whatever systems we come up with in the next millennium.

In the meantime we live in a time when there is a growing sense of stagnation. I think particularly in the US and here in the UK. Opinions are split pretty much 50/50 on every issue, meaning that no leader can really win. Whatever issue they want to fight for there will be strong opposition and a fight for policy, while to try to play the centre just gives and impression of being safe. Meanwhile the nature of a two party system means that whatever policies are brought forth by one party, are ultimately negated before their full fruition. Sometimes this is down to pure selfishness and a need to get one up on the opposition and sometimes it is down to how politicians believe that a policy is legitimately the wrong thing to do. Either way it's a sign that the system is broken.
For Obama's part in this I think it's fairly clear that what has actually occurred is that people misread what legacy he would leave. People look around them and see that nothing has changed when really they should recognise that it is still a very special thing that a coloured man is President of the united states. That's what has changed and that will be his legacy. Everything else will be judged in the decades to come, simply because most things in politics are.

At any rate a change will come sooner rather than later. History shows us that change comes rather quickly once a society begins to stagnate. Generally that means that a civilization will end in either self-destruction, war or revolution. Or all of the above. I still hold out hope that in a new millennium there will be another option some time down the line. In any case the World is very different place now than it was a Century ago, and so it will be again a century from now, both economically and politically. The only thing we can do is simly try and learn from our mistakes and pass those down to the ones who follow us, and slowly, very, very slowly, the world is gently improving.

[SoulReaver]

yeah well in the US the only way a president can have some measure of true authority is if he has a military background. Obama is 100% civie thus has no backing from the military ie. no real authority which means he's just a puppet giving out the orders he's ordered to give