The Political Discussion Thread

[SoulReaver]

Power corrupts! No matter who's in charge, power corrupts.

I mean, with great power does come great responsibility.

with great power comes great power. period

[jelgate]

When great power comes a t-bone steak.

[Coco Pops]

absolutely: reducing taxes for megacorporations like Monsanto & making them even richer will help fight against them

although why a flat tax? a regressive tax would be even more effective

or better yet why not exonerate the elites from taxes altogether? just make the commoners pay everything
after all it's well known that in feudal times the nobility - who paid no taxes - also had no power, and the lower classes had all the power

But it's not just the USA.......... Over here the poor and middle class are taxed heavily while corporations and things like mining companies get a hand out and even let off tax altogether almost. It has become a sick joke and no matter what country it's the same. People should be storming governments and demanding accountability.

[jelgate]

But it's not just the USA.......... Over here the poor and middle class are taxed heavily while corporations and things like mining companies get a hand out and even let off tax altogether almost. It has become a sick joke and no matter what country it's the same. People should be storming governments and demanding accountability.

Because Occupy Wall Street was so effective.

[Seastallion]

Seastallion.
Such change, while warranted and needed, will not happen without major social upheaval by either the forces of War, or true global economic meltdown. Human history indicates that this is true. The Cosmos may live in a constant state of flux, but we (humanity) gear towards self serving apathy, and it unfortunately takes a kick up the butt for us to change.

Sadly, I must agree with you, however an economic meltdown is virtually inevitable. The current fiat money system we have is unsustainable. In addition we know our government has sold us out. The biggest example of this are the events around 1913. I'm speaking of course about the creation of the Federal Reserve (a private bank, NOT a part of the government which unconstitutionally has control over our currency), and the constitutional amendments signed by Woodrow Wilson, the remaining relevant ones being federal income taxes (which was never legally ratified), and U.S. Senators being 'elected', rather than being appointed by state legislatures, thus maintaining one of the checks and balances between state and federal government. That removed one of the mechanisms for the states to be able to hold the federal government in check.

Then, in 1933 the government confiscated most of the gold and silver from the American public; this was outright theft, designed to further economically enslave the people. Then (as usual) war was used to further increase the power of the federal government. More and more, the government has been disregarding the constitution. At the same time, our money has been becoming more and more worthless. Eventually, a change will be forced, the question will be what paradigm we choose to replace the current one with.

[Seastallion]

I think the reason why we have so many problems in this country is because of the large amount of control the government seems to have over our lives and our businesses. There is the fact that different income levels are taxed at different rates, resulting in this extremely convoluted system overseen by a bunch of stuffed shirts who probably wouldn't know an honest day's work if it bit 'em in the backside (the IRS) that effectively punishes success, hard work, and initiative.

This is more or less obvious, and I doubt too many would disagree generally.

This is the reason you also don't see too many people tearing our politicians a new one since a good percentage of the people aren't even paying into the system as it stands now.

Some people, yes, but it isn't the only reason at all. It is mostly apathy, as has already been stated. People know there are problems, but so long as it doesn't effect their own lives too much, they don't want to "rock the boat". Some people just feel that there is nothing they can do, and just accept the current system as inevitable and indisputable. Of course, there are some people who are perfectly happy with the way things are, but they are by far the minority.

I'd prefer a system that didn't tax income at all and instead taxed consumption (going to the store and buying stuff) but the next best thing would be a flat tax...where EVERYONE payed the same percentage of their gross income (no deductions allowed). If we had this system, it would be far less complicated and we could get rid of the IRS bureaucrats. And I could guarantee you that if the government tried to raise the flat tax percentage without offering a darn good reason...the government would have a revolt on its hands by morning. The flat tax system I think would allow small businesses to flourish in our country once again. And once we've had a resurgence of small business many of them could get together and form co-ops to stand against the big baddies like Monsanto and the like that like to contaminate our food and water with their GMO's and pesticides. I think the flat tax system would also serve as a deterrent against any one person or group having a controlling interest in government operations. If you think about it, the current system which involves placing an extremely high tax burden on people who have been blessed through hard work and determination to get to that point where they have a nice tidy nest egg to live on, in effect give those top earners, who most people refer to as the 1% (versus the rest of the 99%) (with differing opinions as to the level of disparity of course) may seem like a good idea but having higher rates for people who earn more in effect gives the higher-earning people a controlling interest in government operations. This in effect leads to the "corporatization" of government, which then leads to an environment wherein politicians more readily accept bribes. But in a flat tax system where EVERYONE is paying taxes at the same percentage rate of their income (again no deductions allowed), this gives NOBODY a controlling interest in government operations. I daresay that in effect the Constitution would become the controlling interest in this system, as it should be and was during the early years of our country. So it's possible to have a more equal system in a currency based economy as well I think

The problem is that you don't understand how the ultra rich operate. They don't pay taxes AT ALL. This is because they don't actually own anything. At least, not in their own name. Not even the shirts on their own backs. It is all put under the name of a trust fund or some other organization, and those monies are squirreled away in some foreign country where the government can't get to it. Yes, the Corporations pay a 'token' tax, but multinational corporations get out of most of their taxes by clever bookkeeping that keeps the most of their monies overseas. The super wealthy live by a philosophy of "own nothing, but control everything". They don't own their own homes, their cars, their yachts; none of it. So they can't be taxed for any of it. This is also how they sidestep the "Inheritance Tax". That particular tax was designed specifically for 'commoners' by the ultra elite to keep the poor downtrodden; especially since they knew exactly how to evade it themselves.

Nearly all of the politicians are bought and paid for shortly after they get to Washington. This is mostly done through 'Insider Trading' blackmail. They give the new politicians 'tips' to make themselves some extra money, and once the new congressman takes the bait, it is more or less all over. They will then use that to force said politician to vote for the things they want them to. If they don't they will threaten to smear their name, and basically prosecute them. The ultra rich don't care about most of the 'social issues', they only care about what will effect their profits. They use the visible government to be nothing more than a theater to distract the masses from what is really going on. They already own all of the major media, including Reuters which most of the other news networks get their news from. None of the mainstream media can be trusted at all, not CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, or even Fox News. The Democrats and Republicans have been completely bought, and both parties merely serve the Central Banks and the Multinational Corporations.

There really IS a 'shadow government', and it operates completely outside of the Constitution and the Law of the land. They are a law unto themselves, and can only do what they do in the shadows. The President, and the rest of the politicians are mere puppets, to distract people from what is really going on. They are content to allow people to squabble over 'pointless' social issues while they exert control to make sure the masses exist in economic slavery. ANY monetary system is vulnerable to their methods of control, because those methods have been developed over the centuries THROUGH money. If money is taken out of the equation, then they no longer have any power, except claims of ownership over resources they cheated, bribed, stole, and murdered to obtain.

Did you know that Jacob Rothschild has obtained the patent to a cutting edge computer chip used in advanced weaponry, recently, after the other potential share holders died in that plane that went missing out in the ocean. The patent hadn't yet been issued when the plane was lost, but it was while it was lost. It wasn't 'found' until after the patent had been issued, and since all the other claimants were dead, the patent fell solely to Rothschild. Do you really think that was a coincidence? The so called 1% are actually puppets of the .01%. Most of them are related after centuries of intermarriage, the royals and financial elite of Europe. This past year, a 12 year old girl discovered that 42 out of the 43 Presidents we have had (including Obama) were ALL descended from British Royalty. Even George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. Does anyone really believe that is just a coincidence? That isn't to say that all of our Presidents were mere puppets to the British Crown or anything, as I believe some of them did try to resist the power of the Bankers, and were probably better able to do so in the past. I believe Lincoln and John F Kennedy were both assassinated because they had attempted to do the right thing.

The Bankers have been waging a covert war against this country since its inception. Did you know that the Federal Reserve is the THIRD (and longest lasting) Central Bank this Nation has had? There were two that existed before it. The first one's charter had ended in 1812, and the Congress refused to renew it, resulting in the war of 1812 where the British burned Washington DC. The second was destroyed by Andrew Jackson who was himself nearly assassinated during the struggle. It was in fact, the main platform he had ran on. Finally, in 1912 (I think), J.P. Morgan, Rockefeller, and others met in secret on Jeckel Island and basically wrote the Federal Reserve charter, and several Constitutional Amendments. They bought Woodrow Wilson's election and he signed those things into law for them. Those amendments included the Federal Income Tax, and the change of how U.S. Senators were put into office.

Originally, U.S. Senators were appointed by the State Legislatures rather than voted for by the general public. This was so that the States could maintain control over the Senators and make sure that they did what the States wanted, rather than whatever they wanted to do on their own, as they do now. This removed one of the most powerful checks and balances between the Federal and State governments, and allowed corruption to become more easily spread among the national politicians. Before, the States could have pulled the Senator if they did things the States didn't like, now they are elected only once every 6 years, and do not answer to the State governments at all. Since they no longer answer to the State government, they can do whatever they like without fear of being removed from office by said State governments. They just need to keep hoodwinking the people that don't pay as much attention to their actions as other politicians would.

One of the Elder Rothschilds (now dead) once said, that he didn't care about who made the laws, so long as he controlled the money of a nation. J.P. Morgan had been a lieutenant of the Rothschilds (the infamous banking family), and now the Federal Reserves prints the U.S. money, unconstitutionally. It is supposed to be the U.S. Treasury that does this. JFK had tried to have the Treasury to start printing Greenbacks again, but he was assassinated 6 months after he signed the executive order, and Lyndon B Johnson revoked the order after he became President.

Our government 'borrows' money from the Federal Reserve by issuing Bonds (nothing more than worthless pretty pieces of paper), and then the Federal Reserve prints the money (also worthless paper with pictures on it) and loans the money to the government 'with interest' on money they create out of nothing. In reality, every cent that gets paid in taxes NEVER reaches the Federal Government, it all goes to the Federal Reserve (which is NOT a part of the government; it is a private bank) to pay off that interest. Every cent that the Government spends (on the military, social programs, etc) is ALL borrowed money from the Bank. This is why the U.S. Dollar has dropped in value steadily since 1913.

A dollar of today is worth about 4 cents in the money of 1913. Originally a dollar was 1 ounce of silver (the Silver Dollar); try buying an ounce of silver with a dollar today. In any case, money is the tool of these criminals, and the only way to stop them is to eliminate money altogether. Not just cash money either, virtual money included. After all, most transactions today ARE virtual, done by computer. No monetary system will be able to resist the corruptible nature of money. The Bible rightly says that "The Love of Money is the Root of ALL Evil". So lets just eliminate the money out of the equation.

[Coco Pops]

Because Occupy Wall Street was so effective.

Then how would you change things?

[Gatefan1976]

But it's not just the USA.......... Over here the poor and middle class are taxed heavily while corporations and things like mining companies get a hand out and even let off tax altogether almost. It has become a sick joke and no matter what country it's the same. People should be storming governments and demanding accountability.

Seriously??
We are not taxed that bad Co-Co, really we are not.
YES, the loopholes exist for the wealthy, and it is stupid, but we tend to push back a bit more, or at least get covered more doing so by the Aussie media.

[P-90_177]

I think the reason why we have so many problems in this country is because of the large amount of control the government seems to have over our lives and our businesses. There is the fact that different income levels are taxed at different rates, resulting in this extremely convoluted system overseen by a bunch of stuffed shirts who probably wouldn't know an honest day's work if it bit 'em in the backside (the IRS) that effectively punishes success, hard work, and initiative. This is the reason you also don't see too many people tearing our politicians a new one since a good percentage of the people aren't even paying into the system as it stands now. I'd prefer a system that didn't tax income at all and instead taxed consumption (going to the store and buying stuff) but the next best thing would be a flat tax...where EVERYONE payed the same percentage of their gross income (no deductions allowed). If we had this system, it would be far less complicated and we could get rid of the IRS bureaucrats. And I could guarantee you that if the government tried to raise the flat tax percentage without offering a darn good reason...the government would have a revolt on its hands by morning. The flat tax system I think would allow small businesses to flourish in our country once again. And once we've had a resurgence of small business many of them could get together and form co-ops to stand against the big baddies like Monsanto and the like that like to contaminate our food and water with their GMO's and pesticides. I think the flat tax system would also serve as a deterrent against any one person or group having a controlling interest in government operations. If you think about it, the current system which involves placing an extremely high tax burden on people who have been blessed through hard work and determination to get to that point where they have a nice tidy nest egg to live on, in effect give those top earners, who most people refer to as the 1% (versus the rest of the 99%) (with differing opinions as to the level of disparity of course) may seem like a good idea but having higher rates for people who earn more in effect gives the higher-earning people a controlling interest in government operations. This in effect leads to the "corporatization" of government, which then leads to an environment wherein politicians more readily accept bribes. But in a flat tax system where EVERYONE is paying taxes at the same percentage rate of their income (again no deductions allowed), this gives NOBODY a controlling interest in government operations. I daresay that in effect the Constitution would become the controlling interest in this system, as it should be and was during the early years of our country. So it's possible to have a more equal system in a currency based economy as well I think

Wow. That is one cynical dog-eat-dog world you've effectively created there.

[Coco Pops]

Seriously??
We are not taxed that bad Co-Co, really we are not.
YES, the loopholes exist for the wealthy, and it is stupid, but we tend to push back a bit more, or at least get covered more doing so by the Aussie media.

Not lately. The previous year the media which is mostly Murdoch cosied up to the LNP and trashed the ALP.... That's how Abbott got elected, plus voter dissatisfaction. I am not for either ALP or LNP but we still have a media going soft on the government because most of it is Murdoch..... That's just my view.

[mad_gater]

Wow. That is one cynical dog-eat-dog world you've effectively created there.

but alas, unfortunately, all too real because with the 1% (again a debatable point as to whether the divide is that great or not) paying at least 70% of the taxes, those 1% actually have more say in government operations

think about it....eminent domain for example is a process wherein the government takes land from someone without so much as a "by your leave" and hands it over to someone (most of the time a very wealthy someone or group of someones.....like Monsanto for example) who can make something out of it that will generate more tax revenue

under a flat tax system you could say "bye bye" to the unconstitutional "eminent domain" policy as no government official would get any larger of a percentage from a wealthy person or persons than they would from anyone else

[mad_gater]

absolutely: reducing taxes for megacorporations like Monsanto & making them even richer will help fight against them

although why a flat tax? a regressive tax would be even more effective

or better yet why not exonerate the elites from taxes altogether? just make the commoners pay everything
after all it's well known that in feudal times the nobility - who paid no taxes - also had no power, and the lower classes had all the power

time for a little math lesson me thinks:

Let I = gross income; Let R = flat tax rate as a percentage (5%, 10%, etc., to be determined by popular vote); Let A = amount paid out in taxes

the formula for flat tax is then: I x R = A

Since R is a constant value, this gives us a direct relationship between I and A...this means that lower income people would still be paying out less in taxes (zero in the case of one who earns nothing) and higher wage earners would still be paying out more in taxes

However, since everyone pays out at the same rate, this would actually help those who earn more be equal with those who earn less. Having a system where different people pay according to different rates (our current system which to me is nothing more than a legalized double or more standard and you know how I simply detest double standards ) actually latches on to any envy those who earn less have for those who earn more and inflames it

Think about it....say there's a certain level of envy......the inflammation of the envy comes from the fact that those who earn more would naturally resent being made to pay a different rate

Seastallion mentioned the lengths people go through to avoid having to pay taxes at all....well with the convoluted bureaucracy known as the IRS that the current system gave rise to is it any wonder that people would naturally want to minimize their dealings with such a bureaucracy?

[mad_gater]

oh yes....allow me to clarify that I'm no anarchist....there needs to be SOME government

"money talks" as the saying goes...under the current system money is given more power to influence how much control one person or one group of persons has in government operations....but under a flat tax system since everyone pays into the system at the same rate money doesn't have as much power to talk when it comes to government

[Gatefan1976]

Not lately. The previous year the media which is mostly Murdoch cosied up to the LNP and trashed the ALP.... That's how Abbott got elected, plus voter dissatisfaction. I am not for either ALP or LNP but we still have a media going soft on the government because most of it is Murdoch..... That's just my view.

I gotta ask you Co-Co, what news ARE you watching?
The LNP ran a better smear campaign, with most of the Ammunition supplied from the ALP's own damn stupidity and internal fighting. Quite frankly, we needed a "liberal" shift in economic policy to keep from dropping into the "credit card hell" that many other countries now have to deal with. What we did NOT need is the backwards social bull****e being pushed by Abbot and his buddies that has gone along with it, which is why that tool will be voted out in the next election, if not before if we get a no confidence vote over the proposed budget.

[Gatefan1976]

time for a little math lesson me thinks:

Let I = gross income; Let R = flat tax rate as a percentage (5%, 10%, etc., to be determined by popular vote); Let A = amount paid out in taxes

the formula for flat tax is then: I x R = A

Since R is a constant value, this gives us a direct relationship between I and A...this means that lower income people would still be paying out less in taxes (zero in the case of one who earns nothing) and higher wage earners would still be paying out more in taxes

However, since everyone pays out at the same rate, this would actually help those who earn more be equal with those who earn less. Having a system where different people pay according to different rates (our current system which to me is nothing more than a legalized double or more standard and you know how I simply detest double standards ) actually latches on to any envy those who earn less have for those who earn more and inflames it

Think about it....say there's a certain level of envy......the inflammation of the envy comes from the fact that those who earn more would naturally resent being made to pay a different rate

Seastallion mentioned the lengths people go through to avoid having to pay taxes at all....well with the convoluted bureaucracy known as the IRS that the current system gave rise to is it any wonder that people would naturally want to minimize their dealings with such a bureaucracy?

Wow, just, wow.