The Political Discussion Thread

[Gatefan1976]

Very interesting paper. I agree, the issues are socioeconomic. However I do believe that there is a level of cultural impetus involved. However, I would need to read up on whether or not that opinion is supported by literature on the subject.

Go with your gut here Tood, it MUST be cultural, there is no other reasonable or logical explanation. We can parse whether that is a function of "independent culture" (?) or religious persuasion till the cows come home, but what else can it be?

When I hear or read about overpopulation, people tend to talk about contraceptives and then move on to talk about it within nations that really don't have an issue with overpopulation. So what I would like to know is, objectively, how effective can contraceptives alone be in curtailing large birth rates in countries like India?

We are psychologically *TRAINED* not to look at the places that have this problem dude, and when we DO look at them we a *TRAINED* not to act on it. You are not shown cold graphs of population growth and lack of resources, you are shown images of starving children living in horrid conditions, and we *WANT* to help them, because we can relate to them. They are children, they are innocent and no one with a heart wants to see them suffer. We can argue semantics about *when* life begins, but they are *just that* in the scheme of this kind of discussion, semantics, mere distractions from the issue of dealing with people that are *here now*.

It still happens in some countries.

I was actually trying to be nice.

[Col.Foley]

Go with your gut here Tood, it MUST be cultural, there is no other reasonable or logical explanation. We can parse whether that is a function of "independent culture" (?) or religious persuasion till the cows come home, but what else can it be?


We are psychologically *TRAINED* not to look at the places that have this problem dude, and when we DO look at them we a *TRAINED* not to act on it. You are not shown cold graphs of population growth and lack of resources, you are shown images of starving children living in horrid conditions, and we *WANT* to help them, because we can relate to them. They are children, they are innocent and no one with a heart wants to see them suffer. We can argue semantics about *when* life begins, but they are *just that* in the scheme of this kind of discussion, semantics, mere distractions from the issue of dealing with people that are *here now*.


I was actually trying to be nice.

You don't hve to be religious to consider the problem of 'when life begins' to be more then semantics.

You failed.

[aretood2]

name me ONE instance in modern history where Catholics are forcing other people to become Catholic just for the heck of it....shouldn't be too hard if you think that we're just running around willy-nilly thumping people over the head with the Catechism

Mexico has plenty of stories, especially individuals whose options for being Protestant include:

1. Leave the town
2. Stay and convert
3. Stay and not convert and get raped and/or killed

How do you define "native"? How many generations of ancestors before someone is "native"?

You're talking about individuals, I am talking about populations. Japan is not an immigrant nation. It is pretty clear what the native population/culture is.

[Gatefan1976]

name me ONE instance in modern history where Catholics are forcing other people to become Catholic just for the heck of it....shouldn't be too hard if you think that we're just running around willy-nilly thumping people over the head with the Catechism

I'm sorry I can't speak of it due to a global gag order that allows a country to withhold humanitarian health aid from countries that do things with the money you don't morally agree with.
It's not just the Catechism MG, it is the greater effect it has on the culture that embraces it, or the current interpretation of it. Why is this so hard for you to see?

[aretood2]

Go with your gut here Tood, it MUST be cultural, there is no other reasonable or logical explanation. We can parse whether that is a function of "independent culture" (?) or religious persuasion till the cows come home, but what else can it be?

Contraceptives have little to do with married couples wanting more children. I am talking about first world peoples. What are the chances that a cultural imperative to procreate would offset socioeconomic trends of decreased birth rates? The key word there being procreation, as in intentionally seeking to multiply.

We are psychologically *TRAINED* not to look at the places that have this problem dude, and when we DO look at them we a *TRAINED* not to act on it. You are not shown cold graphs of population growth and lack of resources, you are shown images of starving children living in horrid conditions, and we *WANT* to help them, because we can relate to them. They are children, they are innocent and no one with a heart wants to see them suffer. We can argue semantics about *when* life begins, but they are *just that* in the scheme of this kind of discussion, semantics, mere distractions from the issue of dealing with people that are *here now*.

Not sure what you're talking about.

[mad_gater]

Mexico has plenty of stories, especially individuals whose options for being Protestant include:

1. Leave the town
2. Stay and convert
3. Stay and not convert and get raped and/or killed



You're talking about individuals, I am talking about populations. Japan is not an immigrant nation. It is pretty clear what the native population/culture is.

and does the fact that Mexico is run by a dictator who forces Catholicism on the people detract from the equally valid fact that doing so is against the teaching of the Magisterium of the Church and even invalidates the "conversion" (to be a true convert one has to choose Catholicism freely)

[Gatefan1976]

You don't hve to be religious to consider the problem of 'when life begins' to be more then semantics.

Last time you saw a homeless dude, did you look away?
Offer help?
Consider offering help then rationalized that any help you offered would be used in ways you did not intend so didn't?
Were too scared to get near the filthy smelly dude?

You failed.

Not my problem, I tried, if I failed, I failed I can accept that. I would rather that than not even trying at all.

[Col.Foley]

Last time you saw a homeless dude, did you look away?
Offer help?
Consider offering help then rationalized that any help you offered would be used in ways you did not intend so didn't?
Were too scared to get near the filthy smelly dude?


Not my problem, I tried, if I failed, I failed I can accept that. I would rather that than not even trying at all.

If I saw a homeless person I am sure I wouldn't know if he was homeless or not considering I do not ask epople if they are homeless and it is hard to judge people baseed on looks alone. And I would answer your question if I saw what it had to do with my comment, since I do not, it is hard for me to give an answer. Needless to say though I usually do not keep money on me so I cannot just go out of my way to help random homeless people to begin with. And my personal monetary, and time, reserves are so limited that I cannot usually help in any other way...I hope to...but then again what does this ahve to o with the issue at hand?

[aretood2]

Not my problem, I tried, if I failed, I failed I can accept that. I would rather that than not even trying at all.

Have you tried to discern why he feels the way he does and then ask him to clarify his opinion and then voice your opinion in response? Or are you trying to beat down an annoying trend of constantly announcing that the sky is falling and the perpetrators are the Shariah Law pushing Muslims?

I've done plenty of the former myself, to others in different situations as you may be aware. Haven't been too successful with the latter.

[Gatefan1976]

Contraceptives have little to do with married couples wanting more children. I am talking about first world peoples. What are the chances that a cultural imperative to procreate would offset socioeconomic trends of decreased birth rates? The key word there being procreation, as in intentionally seeking to multiply.

I am not talking about first world countries, in fact you are doing exactly what you said you don't understand, moving from countries that do not have over-population issues (first world), to ones that do. I'm sure there is some research out there that supports the notion that subculture's within a greater culture make an impact on the "greater culture", or perhaps a reality show or two..............

Not sure what you're talking about.

OK then.

[Gatefan1976]

If I saw a homeless person I am sure I wouldn't know if he was homeless or not considering I do not ask epople if they are homeless and it is hard to judge people baseed on looks alone. And I would answer your question if I saw what it had to do with my comment, since I do not, it is hard for me to give an answer. Needless to say though I usually do not keep money on me so I cannot just go out of my way to help random homeless people to begin with. And my personal monetary, and time, reserves are so limited that I cannot usually help in any other way...I hope to...but then again what does this ahve to o with the issue at hand?

My time is limited as well, I've tried.

[Col.Foley]

My time is limited as well, I've tried.

And so have I.

[Gatefan1976]

Have you tried to discern why he feels the way he does and then ask him to clarify his opinion and then voice your opinion in response?

What would be the point Tood? The Discussion?? There is no discussion going on here, If there was, there would be a point.

Or are you trying to beat down an annoying trend of constantly announcing that the sky is falling and the perpetrators are the Shariah Law pushing Muslims?

No, more pointing out that claiming moral high ground is a waste of time.

I've done plenty of the former myself, to others in different situations as you may be aware. Haven't been too successful with the latter.

That's why I value our discussions *especially* when we do not agree.

[Gatefan1976]

And so have I.

No, you really have not, you have read what I have written, made a "one liner" and expect it to hold up as an argument. What do YOU think the point of my little diatribe was about?

[Nolamom]

as for homelessness, there are many who *appear* to be homeless, who even claim such status, and are in fact, not. The other day, I was prepared to give money to a "homeless" fellow panhandling in an intersection. However, as I approached, he went on a "break" over to his very late-model pick up truck and consumed a drink. His vehicle was far new than my own. One has to doubt the "homeless, hungry-please help" signs as perhaps a ploy