The Political Discussion Thread

[s09119]

yes Cause with Americans, they will complain that they dont get payed too much and what to get paided enough to support the $500 car payment, $200 Iphone bil $500 house payment and demand the companies pay for all there medical bills cause it costs to much for americans and distrupts the lifestyle of having all there expense stuff. Then if they dont get what they want they sue the company or get others to go on strike with them.

And people wonder why jobs are given to Mexicans and other people and go overseas for cheaper labor.

And millions waiting in line get declined to do it the legal way.

Again, massive overgeneralizations.

[Rudy Pena]

Again, massive overgeneralizations.

No it aint, its the truth. Americans have so much stuff and they cant ever think of living without it and wont downsize a bit, so they can make a living. They rather have everything.

Most Americans will not give up there Iphone and get a basic phone and no texts, so they can save money. They rather have a smartphone with internet and texts and facetime calls.

They rather have a new car, rather than a used one. They rather have that 3 bedroom house, than a 3 bedroom apartment.

If your friends have smartphones, I ask you to ask them would they get a basic phone with no internet and texts to save money. See what they say.

[mad_gater]

No it aint, its the truth. Americans have so much stuff and they cant ever think of living without it and wont downsize a bit, so they can make a living. They rather have everything.

Most Americans will not give up there Iphone and get a basic phone and no texts, so they can save money. They rather have a smartphone with internet and texts and facetime calls.

They rather have a new car, rather than a used one. They rather have that 3 bedroom house, than a 3 bedroom apartment.

If your friends have smartphones, I ask you to ask them would they get a basic phone with no internet and texts to save money. See what they say.

most Americans would rather have a house than an apartment because it's a good investment if you can manage it....we buy a house.....keep it up and maintain it and even improve the property to increase its value....then when we get too old to maintain the house we sell it and move into a senior citizen's apartment complex and as long as it was maintained enough and improved upon to result in a net increase in property value then doing such a thing ensures the retiree a good nest egg.....part of the housing crisis was that too many homes got sold to people who wanted all the benefits of home owning but none of the responsibility....because you OWN the home.....whereas in an apartment your rent is paying someone else's mortgage, namely whoever owns the apartment complex....I used to take calls for PHH Mortgage and I got more calls than I would've liked from people who wanted to own a home but treat the privilege like living in an apartment

[mad_gater]

so the big part of it is that some of us American sometimes don't realize until it's too late that we weren't cut out to be homeowners...like my parents....my dad was definitely not on the ball financially.....he left behind so much debt when he died that I'll probably be in my mid 40's helping my mom pay it back before I can even think about going back to school....so the definitely should never have been homeowners

[Rudy Pena]

most Americans would rather have a house than an apartment because it's a good investment if you can manage it....we buy a house.....keep it up and maintain it and even improve the property to increase its value....then when we get too old to maintain the house we sell it and move into a senior citizen's apartment complex and as long as it was maintained enough and improved upon to result in a net increase in property value then doing such a thing ensures the retiree a good nest egg.....part of the housing crisis was that too many homes got sold to people who wanted all the benefits of home owning but none of the responsibility....because you OWN the home.....whereas in an apartment your rent is paying someone else's mortgage, namely whoever owns the apartment complex....I used to take calls for PHH Mortgage and I got more calls than I would've liked from people who wanted to own a home but treat the privilege like living in an apartment

While it is a good investment, but most Americans cant have a house cause of other financial obligations, but yet do it and then years later get bad credit due to them having a house payment to make, but cant make say a simple $200 phonebill.

[Rudy Pena]

so the big part of it is that some of us American sometimes don't realize until it's too late that we weren't cut out to be homeowners...like my parents....my dad was definitely not on the ball financially.....he left behind so much debt when he died that I'll probably be in my mid 40's helping my mom pay it back before I can even think about going back to school....so the definitely should never have been homeowners

Exactly what I mean, they want the house, but they dont need the house.

If your parents had a apartment, Im sure they wouldnt have had so much debt.

[mad_gater]

Exactly what I mean, they want the house, but they dont need the house.

If your parents had a apartment, Im sure they wouldnt have had so much debt.

well I wouldn't've begrudged them the house as long as it was within their means....just as with anything else such as things like I-pod's and cell phones......if you want that stuff save up for it......if you want a house to live in that you could sell later on for a profit if you've maintained the property well the best way to manage it is to start saving right when you enter the workforce, provided that you know at that young an age that you want a house in your later adult years...that way by the time you're ready to get one you should have enough for a decent-sized down-payment on it....cars are kind of a necessary evil though for traveling long distances.....but again only if you can afford it with a minimum amount of borrowing

edit: so what most Americans REALLY need is a lesson in living within their means

[Rudy Pena]

well I wouldn't've begrudged them the house as long as it was within their means....just as with anything else such as things like I-pod's and cell phones......if you want that stuff save up for it......if you want a house to live in that you could sell later on for a profit if you've maintained the property well the best way to manage it is to start saving right when you enter the workforce, provided that you know at that young an age that you want a house in your later adult years...that way by the time you're ready to get one you should have enough for a decent-sized down-payment on it....cars are kind of a necessary evil though for traveling long distances.....but again only if you can afford it with a minimum amount of borrowing

edit: so what most Americans REALLY need is a lesson in living within their means

And thats the problem, no one knows what they want now days. If they want a 2011 car, they will get it and then 4 months later they are having problems making payments and struggling to make ends meet in there lives.

Buy a used car, once you made all the payments and saved up some money, sell the used car and buy a brand new one. Sure it might seem like a waste of time, but guess what having had that used car built up your credit more making your new 2011 car payments a bit cheaper.

Getting a apartment and saving money for a house, that way you build up credit. For when the times comes buy a house, it will be easier than just buying a house.

Get a $500 limit credit card, use it and make the payments a bit more than needed to build up your credit. That way when you want the $25K limit credit card, you will get it cause you have good credit.

[Womble]

Both misleading statements. Pakistan is not entirely in the grips of Islamists, nor can it be said that Islamic extremism is an isolated problem only affecting a small number of people. Islamic extremism is a huge problem in the area, otherwise you wouldn't have 100,000 insurgents up in the mountains on the Afghans-Pakistan border, engaged in fighting both governments. Further large portions of Pakistani society, as well as the military, police and intelligence services are sympathetic and sometimes provide aid.

In fact Pakistan supplied the Taliban before 9/11 and they had the official support of Pakistan. It is alleged they still support them. However to label the Pakistani government and military establishment as Islamist shows a categorical misunderstanding of the situation by anyone who claims it. The Pakistani government is not Islamist, but it is willing to use extremist Islam as a tool. Pakistan's primary concern is India, they are the main enemy, to which all their major efforts are devoted against. What Pakistan fears is encirclement, to face both India to the south, but also an Indian friendly government to the north. India has had long historic ties with Afghanistan, they provided funds for reconstruction efforts when the Soviets were in control, they funded the Northern Alliance (the Taliban's opponents in the Afghan Civil war) and they continue to have a great deal of money invested in Afghanistan today. Should Western support dry up, the Afghan government is almost guaranteed that India will continue to supply them. In this environment then , the Pakistani's see the Taliban as a useful tool, who will prevent India influence to the North.

The situation is made even more complex after 9/11 as supporting the Taliban was obviously not a thing to be seen doing on the World stage, but also because Pakistan wished to remain on good terms with the U.S (who had been happy to leave the Taliban alone under Clinton). However as the Taliban were pushed out of Afghanistan by ISAF forces, there arose another problem for Pakistan. A home grown Pakistani Taliban was formed to fight against the Pakistani government (who as stated are definitely not Islamist). At the current time you have a very complex situation where Pakistani is fighting some elements of the Taliban, and is alleged to be supporting others. Arguably this policy is because they are unsure who will win in the region and wish to remain friendly with both sides. Further playing off the West and extremist Islam helps their goals. The Taliban impede Indian progress in Afghanistan, while the West continue to provide much needed support themselves.

In the end the key thing to remember is that the between the West and Extremist Islam is a secondary concern for Pakistan. Despite being on the frontline, their first priority is India and most of their foreign policy is orientated towards this fact.

This is a very good analysis in some places, but wrong in others.

The Taliban were actually formed in Pakistan, out of the Afghan refugees-dominated madrassahs. (Taliban" means "student" in Urdu, which reflects their origins as an organization of madrassah students) They were never supported by the Pakistani government officially, although unofficially they did support them, hoping that the Taliban would act as the Pakistani agent of influence.

Also, I would argue that at this point the extremist Islam IS the highest priority for the Pakistani government, and also the greatest threat. The Swat valley fighting proved as much. They've simply run themselves into a kind of ideological Catch 22: they cannot openly declare that they're waging war on a Muslim movement because of the Muslim solidarity factor, and so they don't know whether to fight the Taliban or to try to integrate them into the government in the hope that it would limit the Islamists' political ambitions.

[mad_gater]

And thats the problem, no one knows what they want now days. If they want a 2011 car, they will get it and then 4 months later they are having problems making payments and struggling to make ends meet in there lives.

Buy a used car, once you made all the payments and saved up some money, sell the used car and buy a brand new one. Sure it might seem like a waste of time, but guess what having had that used car built up your credit more making your new 2011 car payments a bit cheaper.

Getting a apartment and saving money for a house, that way you build up credit. For when the times comes buy a house, it will be easier than just buying a house.

Get a $500 limit credit card, use it and make the payments a bit more than needed to build up your credit. That way when you want the $25K limit credit card, you will get it cause you have good credit.

well I'd rather people didn't rely so much on their credit scores.....credit cards I think are nothing but trouble....cash and carry as much as you can is what I say and only borrow what you need to for things that constitute major purchases like a car or a house and only then after saving up enough for a large down payment

[Womble]

edit: so what most Americans REALLY need is a lesson in living within their means

I don't think it's that simple.

First off, living within one's means is becoming increasingly difficult, for the simple reason that the costs are rising and will keep rising. The price of oil, food, housing and just about everything is going up as the resources deplete while the population grows. When a sizeable part of your income goes towards paying rent and essential household expenses, you can't start saving right when you enter the workforce. Definitely not when you hit the job market saddled with a debt the size of your education costs. If, God forbid, you have health issues and you don't have taxpayer-funded healthcare, your entire family can go bankrupt through no fault of yours.

[Rudy Pena]

well I'd rather people didn't rely so much on their credit scores.....credit cards I think are nothing but trouble....cash and carry as much as you can is what I say and only borrow what you need to for things that constitute major purchases like a car or a house and only then after saving up enough for a large down payment

You cant buy a car or a house with bad credit, so doing what I mentioned will help people have a decent size credit for when they want stuff. It will be easier and payments will be less.

[mad_gater]

I don't think it's that simple.

First off, living within one's means is becoming increasingly difficult, for the simple reason that the costs are rising and will keep rising. The price of oil, food, housing and just about everything is going up as the resources deplete while the population grows. When a sizeable part of your income goes towards paying rent and essential household expenses, you can't start saving right when you enter the workforce. Definitely not when you hit the job market saddled with a debt the size of your education costs. If, God forbid, you have health issues and you don't have taxpayer-funded healthcare, your entire family can go bankrupt through no fault of yours.

costs are rising precisely BECAUSE people don't know how to live within their means and are turning to government to bail them out of the mess that only they are responsible for.....so costs are rising BECAUSE of big government involvement in the private sector...more of the same is not gonna lower ANYBODY's cost of living

[Womble]

costs are rising precisely BECAUSE people don't know how to live within their means and are turning to government to bail them out of the mess that only they are responsible for.....so costs are rising BECAUSE of big government involvement in the private sector...more of the same is not gonna lower ANYBODY's cost of living

So you reckon that if the government wasn't involved in the private sector, the increase of the number of people per square mile wouldn't result in rising costs of real estate? That's rubbish. Costs are rising because of simple supply and demand balance- more people, less land to go round, more money needed to buy some. More people, more competition in professions, higher education costs for those professions due to increased demand. Et cetera. Pure market. It's how things work with finite, non-manufacturable resources.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

This is a very good analysis in some places, but wrong in others.

The Taliban were actually formed in Pakistan, out of the Afghan refugees-dominated madrassahs. (Taliban" means "student" in Urdu, which reflects their origins as an organization of madrassah students) They were never supported by the Pakistani government officially, although unofficially they did support them, hoping that the Taliban would act as the Pakistani agent of influence.

Also, I would argue that at this point the extremist Islam IS the highest priority for the Pakistani government, and also the greatest threat. The Swat valley fighting proved as much. They've simply run themselves into a kind of ideological Catch 22: they cannot openly declare that they're waging war on a Muslim movement because of the Muslim solidarity factor, and so they don't know whether to fight the Taliban or to try to integrate them into the government in the hope that it would limit the Islamists' political ambitions.

While the Taliban were formed out of many disgruntled refuges from Afghanistan who spent time in Pakistani madrassa's, they coalesced around the Southern Afghan city of Kandahar. Further pre 9/11 Pakistan was one of the few countries to openly recognize the Taliban regime and deal with them. Things like financial support was official. Pakistani's military support was unofficial, but utterly blatant. They had over 20,000 Pakistani troops aiding the Taliban in fighting and even provided air support.

As for the greatest threat to Pakistani, it may well seem, looking on the outside as someone from the West that militant Islam is the greatest threat. It may even be the case. However in the Pakistani mindset it is still India which remain the priority, as evidenced by the fact that the majority of the military build up in the country is to the south.