The Political Discussion Thread

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

A withdrawal from world affairs would be bad, yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean we can't scale back our operations in some places. Doing everything, everywhere, just because we think it'll make us look better is a terrible mantra. We need to realize that we have limits, particularly in a global recession.

Rather unfortunately, being the global superpower, means being able to do everything, it means being able to wield influence and if necessary deploying force anywhere in the world. There are countries wanting to take America place and confidence in America's support is dropping fast. A further withdrawal will simply be a sign of weakness, something other nations will capitalise on.

You either contiue to act as a super power, or acept that your place as the top dog is no longer insured and that the U.S will not wield the same power or influence that it once had.

[Womble]

Rather unfortunately, being the global superpower, means being able to do everything, it means being able to wield influence and if necessary deploying force anywhere in the world. There are countries wanting to take America place and confidence in America's support is dropping fast. A further withdrawal will simply be a sign of weakness, something other nations will capitalise on.

You either contiue to act as a super power, or acept that your place as the top dog is no longer insured and that the U.S will not wield the same power or influence that it once had.

...And that others, who don't share your values and don't care a whole lot for the whole democracy and human rights business, will be vying for the top dog position the moment it becomes vacant.

[s09119]

...And that others, who don't share your values and don't care a whole lot for the whole democracy and human rights business, will be vying for the top dog position the moment it becomes vacant.

So we should way overextend ourselves and make ourselves more vulnerable and fragile? That doesn't exactly sound like a good plan, either, since it's just as likely end with the scenario you're talking about.

[Womble]

So we should way overextend ourselves and make ourselves more vulnerable and fragile? That doesn't exactly sound like a good plan, either, since it's just as likely end with the scenario you're talking about.

Overextend- no. We should always pick our fights. But that necessitates drafting a clear set of principles of when to go in, proverbial guns blazing, and when to rely more on "soft" power. Or when to credibly threaten the use of "hard" power as a cover for the "soft" power. And no, you can't do everything through "soft" power. It also necessitates that when "hard" power is used, it is accompanied by enough resolve to actually finish the job once you started doing it, rather than cry "quagmire" and demand an end to the entire effort because it's taking too long to complete it. And it also necessitates an understanding that you don't go into a war broadcasting to your enemy that you will leave on day X regardless of how the war goes.

There's also the question of what we can and can't scale back from the current situation, and when. Scaling back in Afghanistan right now at all costs means increasing the likelyhood of Pakistan being taken over by the Islamists- which is just about the only nightmare scenario that would be worse than nuclear-armed Iran.

[Giantevilhead]

Overextend- no. We should always pick our fights. But that necessitates drafting a clear set of principles of when to go in, proverbial guns blazing, and when to rely more on "soft" power. Or when to credibly threaten the use of "hard" power as a cover for the "soft" power. And no, you can't do everything through "soft" power. It also necessitates that when "hard" power is used, it is accompanied by enough resolve to actually finish the job once you started doing it, rather than cry "quagmire" and demand an end to the entire effort because it's taking too long to complete it. And it also necessitates an understanding that you don't go into a war broadcasting to your enemy that you will leave on day X regardless of how the war goes.

There's also the question of what we can and can't scale back from the current situation, and when. Scaling back in Afghanistan right now at all costs means increasing the likelyhood of Pakistan being taken over by the Islamists- which is just about the only nightmare scenario that would be worse than nuclear-armed Iran.

Pakistan has already been taken over by Islamists. A lot of the money we're giving to Pakistan is ending up in the hands of the Taliban.

[lordofseas]

Yes. Let us equate all members of Islam to the Taliban.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Like the law enforcement has done a good job. A boarder patrol agent shot and killed a boy while the boy was on Mexican soil and the agent on US soil.

So by your logic its ok for local and government officers to shot and kill people while they are on Mexican soil. But if a US soldier does the same, its a declaration of war on Mexico.

That's odd, I don't seem to recall having said anything even remotely like that. And no, law enforcement haven't done such a great job, you're right. I just happen to think that soldiers would do an even worse job. The problem is that those Mexicans are crossing the border for a reason and that reason is that there are more than enough Americans that are willing to hire them. That dries up and I guarantee you that the problem will diminish. Not disappear, but diminish.

Never did I say it was okay for either law enforcement, government officers or soldiers to shoot people on Mexican or US soil, so where's you're getting that from is beyond me. Perhaps you're a) mixing me up with another poster or b) making up what I've said?

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Pakistan has already been taken over by Islamists. A lot of the money we're giving to Pakistan is ending up in the hands of the Taliban.

Yes. Let us equate all members of Islam to the Taliban.

Both misleading statements. Pakistan is not entirely in the grips of Islamists, nor can it be said that Islamic extremism is an isolated problem only affecting a small number of people. Islamic extremism is a huge problem in the area, otherwise you wouldn't have 100,000 insurgents up in the mountains on the Afghans-Pakistan border, engaged in fighting both governments. Further large portions of Pakistani society, as well as the military, police and intelligence services are sympathetic and sometimes provide aid.

In fact Pakistan supplied the Taliban before 9/11 and they had the official support of Pakistan. It is alleged they still support them. However to label the Pakistani government and military establishment as Islamist shows a categorical misunderstanding of the situation by anyone who claims it. The Pakistani government is not Islamist, but it is willing to use extremist Islam as a tool. Pakistan's primary concern is India, they are the main enemy, to which all their major efforts are devoted against. What Pakistan fears is encirclement, to face both India to the south, but also an Indian friendly government to the north. India has had long historic ties with Afghanistan, they provided funds for reconstruction efforts when the Soviets were in control, they funded the Northern Alliance (the Taliban's opponents in the Afghan Civil war) and they continue to have a great deal of money invested in Afghanistan today. Should Western support dry up, the Afghan government is almost guaranteed that India will continue to supply them. In this environment then , the Pakistani's see the Taliban as a useful tool, who will prevent India influence to the North.

The situation is made even more complex after 9/11 as supporting the Taliban was obviously not a thing to be seen doing on the World stage, but also because Pakistan wished to remain on good terms with the U.S (who had been happy to leave the Taliban alone under Clinton). However as the Taliban were pushed out of Afghanistan by ISAF forces, there arose another problem for Pakistan. A home grown Pakistani Taliban was formed to fight against the Pakistani government (who as stated are definitely not Islamist). At the current time you have a very complex situation where Pakistani is fighting some elements of the Taliban, and is alleged to be supporting others. Arguably this policy is because they are unsure who will win in the region and wish to remain friendly with both sides. Further playing off the West and extremist Islam helps their goals. The Taliban impede Indian progress in Afghanistan, while the West continue to provide much needed support themselves.

In the end the key thing to remember is that the between the West and Extremist Islam is a secondary concern for Pakistan. Despite being on the frontline, their first priority is India and most of their foreign policy is orientated towards this fact.

[Rudy Pena]

That's odd, I don't seem to recall having said anything even remotely like that. And no, law enforcement haven't done such a great job, you're right. I just happen to think that soldiers would do an even worse job. The problem is that those Mexicans are crossing the border for a reason and that reason is that there are more than enough Americans that are willing to hire them. That dries up and I guarantee you that the problem will diminish. Not disappear, but diminish.

Never did I say it was okay for either law enforcement, government officers or soldiers to shoot people on Mexican or US soil, so where's you're getting that from is beyond me. Perhaps you're a) mixing me up with another poster or b) making up what I've said?

If you are tackling the border crossing of a few Mexicans as a soldier issue and not a crime issue and that involves shooting at those Mexican nationals, then yeah, you are committing an act of war against Mexico, aren't you? That's what happens when you use soldiers to do the work of police - you make a war out of it.

You are saying that if a soldier shoots a mexican. its a act of war. Now if a law enforcement shoots a mexican, its not war.


Its not only mexicans crossing, its every other national from other countries around the world.

Some mexicans are coming to the US to make some money and send it home to there families and a few years later go back, Some are coming to the US cause of the war, people are being blackmailed and everything. Its so bad, that even the cartals are lowering there "protection fees" cause so many people are leaving some areas.



As for the Jobs, Are you willing to work in the fields for over 14 straight hours picking fruit and stuff. Are you willing to do be a plumber? Are you willing to babysit kids? Are you willing to do construction work? Are you willing to take over jobs that mexicans are doing?


So many people ***** and complain about mexicans taking there jobs, then its those same people who ***** and complain about them doing jobs like working in the fields and babysitting and stuff like that. Then they want someone else to do it. If Americans just stop being dumb asses and lazy, maybe companies and people would stop hiring mexicans to do jobs Americans dont want to do.

Please dont give me that BS that, will we would do it if we could. Cause thats not true, Americans want to have good high paying jobs and make over 100K a year.

Just look at the history of the US, Blacks to pick cotton cause Americans didnt want to. Chinese people to mine the gold and build railroads in California cause they didnt want to do it. And now its mexicans doing jobs that Americans dont want to do.


So yes there are more than enough Americans to hire them cause Americans dont want to do certain jobs.

If every illegal mexican was to be out of the US for just 1 week. Do you know how much worse America will get than it is right now?

Its not mexicans fault, its the Americans cause they are too lazy to do what needs to be done.

[Rudy Pena]

People complain to companies about hiring mexicans and stuff, but what to they do......thats it. They dont go and apply for those very same job the complain about not having and giving them to mexicans.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

You are saying that if a soldier shoots a mexican. its a act of war. Now if a law enforcement shoots a mexican, its not war.


Its not only mexicans crossing, its every other national from other countries around the world.

Some mexicans are coming to the US to make some money and send it home to there families and a few years later go back, Some are coming to the US cause of the war, people are being blackmailed and everything. Its so bad, that even the cartals are lowering there "protection fees" cause so many people are leaving some areas.



As for the Jobs, Are you willing to work in the fields for over 14 straight hours picking fruit and stuff. Are you willing to do be a plumber? Are you willing to babysit kids? Are you willing to do construction work? Are you willing to take over jobs that mexicans are doing?


So many people ***** and complain about mexicans taking there jobs, then its those same people who ***** and complain about them doing jobs like working in the fields and babysitting and stuff like that. Then they want someone else to do it. If Americans just stop being dumb asses and lazy, maybe companies and people would stop hiring mexicans to do jobs Americans dont want to do.

Please dont give me that BS that, will we would do it if we could. Cause thats not true, Americans want to have good high paying jobs and make over 100K a year.

Just look at the history of the US, Blacks to pick cotton cause Americans didnt want to. Chinese people to mine the gold and build railroads in California cause they didnt want to do it. And now its mexicans doing jobs that Americans dont want to do.


So yes there are more than enough Americans to hire them cause Americans dont want to do certain jobs.

If every illegal mexican was to be out of the US for just 1 week. Do you know how much worse America will get than it is right now?

Its not mexicans fault, its the Americans cause they are too lazy to do what needs to be done.

Why would it be an act of war if a law enforcement officer shoots (presumable we're talking about something occurring during a crime) someone, on the US side? The minute you have soldiers shooting at people, it certainly changes the impression if not the fact. If we're talking about law enforcement officials basically taking on the role of soldiers and simply shooting at Mexicans, in the US, then we may well be talking about an act of war, although the line is definitely fuzzier on that one. I believe you are, or have been, a soldier, yes? Wouldn't you prefer to go in knowing exactly what the game was? Are you going in to man the border in a law enforcement capacity? As a soldier? You're trained for war, isn't that what you should be doing? If you're sent somewhere as a soldier, doesn't that in essence make what you're doing war, no matter what the politicians doll it up as?

As for the jobs and complaining about that, perhaps you should have asked me where I stood before assuming where I stood? In part, I believe that part of the reason that the border issue isn't dealt with, by ANY administration, is partly because of this very point, the belief that a lot of Americans won't do this labor, that it's beneath them, definitely for the wages being paid. So - whose problem is this really? The Mexicans (and others) who WILL work for that money, in the hopes of bettering themselves, or the Americans who WON'T work for that money because they view it as beneath them? Who is the real problem here? And if America is better off with its cheap labour, then why the demonization of those very hard working people that do the jobs Americans don't want to do? How is turning soldiers loose on these people supposed to help anything?

I've never once said that the Cartels weren't a problem, I really don't know why that keeps coming up unless it's because it makes a lovely diversion. But in a sense, it's related to the problem of American labor and a supply of people that are willing to do that work. Without Americans paying Mexicans to do work they didn't want to do, the problem of illegal border crossings would diminish. Without Americans paying (insert nation here, there are many) for drugs, the Cartels wouldn't have the power they have. I'm not stating that America is the sole reason, but American consumption of drugs is a large part of that consumption. For America, both issues are, in large part, domestic problems and, as far as I know, the US doesn't use soldiers (aside from the National Guard in certain circumstances) to deal with its domestic problems.

This needs to stop being painted as a Mexican problem and, if I'm reading your post right, I think we may both be in some sort of agreement on that?

[s09119]

You are saying that if a soldier shoots a mexican. its a act of war. Now if a law enforcement shoots a mexican, its not war.


Its not only mexicans crossing, its every other national from other countries around the world.

Some mexicans are coming to the US to make some money and send it home to there families and a few years later go back, Some are coming to the US cause of the war, people are being blackmailed and everything. Its so bad, that even the cartals are lowering there "protection fees" cause so many people are leaving some areas.



As for the Jobs, Are you willing to work in the fields for over 14 straight hours picking fruit and stuff. Are you willing to do be a plumber? Are you willing to babysit kids? Are you willing to do construction work? Are you willing to take over jobs that mexicans are doing?


So many people ***** and complain about mexicans taking there jobs, then its those same people who ***** and complain about them doing jobs like working in the fields and babysitting and stuff like that. Then they want someone else to do it. If Americans just stop being dumb asses and lazy, maybe companies and people would stop hiring mexicans to do jobs Americans dont want to do.

Please dont give me that BS that, will we would do it if we could. Cause thats not true, Americans want to have good high paying jobs and make over 100K a year.

Just look at the history of the US, Blacks to pick cotton cause Americans didnt want to. Chinese people to mine the gold and build railroads in California cause they didnt want to do it. And now its mexicans doing jobs that Americans dont want to do.


So yes there are more than enough Americans to hire them cause Americans dont want to do certain jobs.

If every illegal mexican was to be out of the US for just 1 week. Do you know how much worse America will get than it is right now?

Its not mexicans fault, its the Americans cause they are too lazy to do what needs to be done.

Lots of Americans apply for those ****ty jobs. I know many people who would kill to get paid right now, even if it's just scrubbing floors or gardening. But companies in areas dominated by illegal immigrants see no reason to hire citizens since they'd need to pay them more. You're way overgeneralizing.

And the illegal immigration issue goes beyond economics to simple principle; it's not right that millions of people just cross the border and then demand all the rights of U.S. citizens when there are millions more waiting patiently in line the legal way.

[Rudy Pena]

Lots of Americans apply for those ****ty jobs. I know many people who would kill to get paid right now, even if it's just scrubbing floors or gardening. But companies in areas dominated by illegal immigrants see no reason to hire citizens since they'd need to pay them more. You're way overgeneralizing.

And the illegal immigration issue goes beyond economics to simple principle; it's not right that millions of people just cross the border and then demand all the rights of U.S. citizens when there are millions more waiting patiently in line the legal way.

yes Cause with Americans, they will complain that they dont get payed too much and what to get paided enough to support the $500 car payment, $200 Iphone bil $500 house payment and demand the companies pay for all there medical bills cause it costs to much for americans and distrupts the lifestyle of having all there expense stuff. Then if they dont get what they want they sue the company or get others to go on strike with them.

And people wonder why jobs are given to Mexicans and other people and go overseas for cheaper labor.

And millions waiting in line get declined to do it the legal way.

[Rudy Pena]

Why would it be an act of war if a law enforcement officer shoots (presumable we're talking about something occurring during a crime) someone, on the US side? The minute you have soldiers shooting at people, it certainly changes the impression if not the fact. If we're talking about law enforcement officials basically taking on the role of soldiers and simply shooting at Mexicans, in the US, then we may well be talking about an act of war, although the line is definitely fuzzier on that one. I believe you are, or have been, a soldier, yes? Wouldn't you prefer to go in knowing exactly what the game was? Are you going in to man the border in a law enforcement capacity? As a soldier? You're trained for war, isn't that what you should be doing? If you're sent somewhere as a soldier, doesn't that in essence make what you're doing war, no matter what the politicians doll it up as?

As for the jobs and complaining about that, perhaps you should have asked me where I stood before assuming where I stood? In part, I believe that part of the reason that the border issue isn't dealt with, by ANY administration, is partly because of this very point, the belief that a lot of Americans won't do this labor, that it's beneath them, definitely for the wages being paid. So - whose problem is this really? The Mexicans (and others) who WILL work for that money, in the hopes of bettering themselves, or the Americans who WON'T work for that money because they view it as beneath them? Who is the real problem here? And if America is better off with its cheap labour, then why the demonization of those very hard working people that do the jobs Americans don't want to do? How is turning soldiers loose on these people supposed to help anything?

I've never once said that the Cartels weren't a problem, I really don't know why that keeps coming up unless it's because it makes a lovely diversion. But in a sense, it's related to the problem of American labor and a supply of people that are willing to do that work. Without Americans paying Mexicans to do work they didn't want to do, the problem of illegal border crossings would diminish. Without Americans paying (insert nation here, there are many) for drugs, the Cartels wouldn't have the power they have. I'm not stating that America is the sole reason, but American consumption of drugs is a large part of that consumption. For America, both issues are, in large part, domestic problems and, as far as I know, the US doesn't use soldiers (aside from the National Guard in certain circumstances) to deal with its domestic problems.

This needs to stop being painted as a Mexican problem and, if I'm reading your post right, I think we may both be in some sort of agreement on that?

Yes we are agreeing with each other on the most part.


As for the questions, it was really aimed at you but everyone here who would say the things I said they would say.


Yes I am(or was) a soldier,I only need to know what I need to know. I dont need to know all the reasons why, just some and thats good enough.
Before going anyone, everyone gets trained on what they are going to go into. So we learn about the area and stuff and some basic words and know what to do in different events.

And Im a soldier 24/7, I can go to your house and Im still a soldier no matter what. Its not a 9am to 5pm job, its 24/7 thing for as long as you signed up for.

[mad_gater]

Lots of Americans apply for those ****ty jobs. I know many people who would kill to get paid right now, even if it's just scrubbing floors or gardening. But companies in areas dominated by illegal immigrants see no reason to hire citizens since they'd need to pay them more. You're way overgeneralizing.

And the illegal immigration issue goes beyond economics to simple principle; it's not right that millions of people just cross the border and then demand all the rights of U.S. citizens when there are millions more waiting patiently in line the legal way.

on this I am in complete agreement with you.....illegal aliens broke the law.....so them and their families need to be sent back...or at least to the back of the line of people waiting to get in legally.....the minute we start giving amnesty to lawbreakers is the minute we turn into a nation of pansies who are unwilling to enforce sovereign law