The Political Discussion Thread

[magi877]

I put you into a "corner" because you refuse to say what is wrong.

Yeah, I need to chill.

Watched it, not the same as trump.
Clinton sold hope, Trump sells conflict.

potentially true though arguably wrong

Clinton got us into more conflict then trump has, at least, so far

but, again, not the point

IDK and in all seriousness with this statement- maybe you all just dont see the news the same way we do here? or rather, how it is presented to us here?

meaning, in the case of this post and the MAGA usage, that our media makes it seem to those who watch it that MAGA was only ever said by Trump, when independent research will show that is not true

reagan used it, clinton used it even hillary was using 'make america greater again' for awhile before anyone was taking trump seriously

so, my point is, all sides of the politics here do crazy, strange and flat out wrong things, its just that only one side ever gets reported on with a negative slant

another example of this media 'filter' here is the whole migrants in cages, family separation thing

the media has made so many ppl believe that these 'cages' were built under Trump. and that family sep was a policy started by trump,, when in fact both the cages and the separation policy was in place and in effect way before Trump was elected

but americans who watch the 'news' only get one side of the story

further they beleive everyone stays in these 'cages' forever when in fact many of the kids have been moved to military bases, like Ft Sill, where they are staying in the same housing that was used for the same purpose under the Obama admin.

these are the things that our wrong here- unbalanced information flow that only serves to polarize the american population

--------------------------
"i refuse to say whats wrong?"

not really true, i have said that past american actions of regime change and imperialism were and are wrong and that a retraction of american power should begin

that means that I do believe that these things were wrong. how could it be interpreted any other way? The things I have said certainly do not equate to me believing they were correct actions.

but overall, i am not going to apologize for the actions of those in govt who have done these things. many involved were not even elected officials, so cant even blame the voters

it was not in my power to effect these wrongs, so it is certainly not in my responsibility to apologize for them

[magi877]

Who said that?

perhaps no one said it, but it is the overall implication by your collective posts and attitudes

and, by omission, by your not 'saying what is wrong' in response to my posts on how australia treats its unwanted immigrants, also adds to that perception

that is, your omissions leads me to think you believe your nation's actions are ok and not worthy of a explanation because you possibly believe that only America treats illegal immigrants in this manner

like Manus Island: FROM- https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/04/30...refugee-gulag/

MANUS ISLAND, Papua New Guinea — When I first entered the Manus Island detention center in early November 2017, I was confronted with an apocalyptic scene. Toilets overflowed with urine and feces; campfires burned in litter-filled corridors; blood-red graffiti riddled the walls; and zombielike figures lay slumped at odd angles on dirty mattresses and tables. Australia operated and financed this immigration detention center in Papua New Guinea, 758 miles from the Australian mainland’s northernmost point.

I had arrived in the midst of a standoff between the Australian government and the refugees and asylum-seekers it had imprisoned there. After embarking on the treacherous boat journey from Indonesia to Australia, these men were intercepted by the Royal Australian Navy and transferred to Manus Island, where they were left for more than four years with little idea of what the future held and if they would ever be granted asylum.

In April 2016, Papua New Guinea’s Supreme Court ruled that the detention of refugees and asylum-seekers on Manus Island was unconstitutional. Because the people held there did not arrive in Papua New Guinea of their own volition, the court ruled that they had not broken immigration law; therefore, keeping them in indefinite detention violated their constitutional rights. Eighteen months later, the Australian government was trying to circumvent Papua New Guinea’s domestic laws by transferring detainees to three new “open” centers on the island. By allowing refugees and asylum-seekers free movement outside the centers, the Australian government could claim the people weren’t imprisoned.

[Gatefan1976]

perhaps no one said it, but it is the overall implication by your collective posts and attitudes

and, by omission, by your not 'saying what is wrong' in response to my posts on how australia treats its unwanted immigrants, also adds to that perception

that is, your omissions leads me to think you believe your nation's actions are ok and not worthy of a explanation because you possibly believe that only America treats illegal immigrants in this manner

like Manus Island: FROM- https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/04/30...refugee-gulag/

MANUS ISLAND, Papua New Guinea — When I first entered the Manus Island detention center in early November 2017, I was confronted with an apocalyptic scene. Toilets overflowed with urine and feces; campfires burned in litter-filled corridors; blood-red graffiti riddled the walls; and zombielike figures lay slumped at odd angles on dirty mattresses and tables. Australia operated and financed this immigration detention center in Papua New Guinea, 758 miles from the Australian mainland’s northernmost point.

I had arrived in the midst of a standoff between the Australian government and the refugees and asylum-seekers it had imprisoned there. After embarking on the treacherous boat journey from Indonesia to Australia, these men were intercepted by the Royal Australian Navy and transferred to Manus Island, where they were left for more than four years with little idea of what the future held and if they would ever be granted asylum.

In April 2016, Papua New Guinea’s Supreme Court ruled that the detention of refugees and asylum-seekers on Manus Island was unconstitutional. Because the people held there did not arrive in Papua New Guinea of their own volition, the court ruled that they had not broken immigration law; therefore, keeping them in indefinite detention violated their constitutional rights. Eighteen months later, the Australian government was trying to circumvent Papua New Guinea’s domestic laws by transferring detainees to three new “open” centers on the island. By allowing refugees and asylum-seekers free movement outside the centers, the Australian government could claim the people weren’t imprisoned.

I have decried our nations treatment of Asylum seekers for a VERY long time.
We should never have had "off shore" processing, EVER, nor should we have had the "boat people" policy either.

I have NEVER wavered in that stance, no matter what my government does.
So, kindly, piss off.
keeping people "out" might help in the short term, but it never does in the long term.
The DIFFERENCE here is you embrace keeping people out, and I don't.

[Gatefan1976]

potentially true though arguably wrong

just true.

Clinton got us into more conflict then trump has, at least, so far

?
Really?
what wars did he approve of?

but, again, not the point

Not yours perhaps, but certainly mine.

IDK and in all seriousness with this statement- maybe you all just dont see the news the same way we do here? or rather, how it is presented to us here?

How can I see it different?
I don't go to second hand sites for news from CNN, or MSNBC, or FOX, they can stand or fall on their own.
I do watch SOME breakdowns of misinformation from CNN, MSNBC and FOX, because they all add or omit things, that's the bias.

meaning, in the case of this post and the MAGA usage, that our media makes it seem to those who watch it that MAGA was only ever said by Trump, when independent research will show that is not true

MAGA, as trump uses it was never used that way before.
His MAGA is make America good for people from the 50's.
Other politicians have used the phrase, but not with that meaning.

reagan used it, clinton used it even hillary was using 'make america greater again' for awhile before anyone was taking trump seriously

trumps MAGA is NOT their MAGA, not even Reagans. Reagan never openly went for hate, even if he thought it privately (which, I can't say, he kept it private if he did)
trump does not, which is why "his MAGA" is different, and deserves judgement.

so, my point is, all sides of the politics here do crazy, strange and flat out wrong things, its just that only one side ever gets reported on with a negative slant

BULLSH*T

another example of this media 'filter' here is the whole migrants in cages, family separation thing

the media has made so many ppl believe that these 'cages' were built under Trump. and that family sep was a policy started by trump,, when in fact both the cages and the separation policy was in place and in effect way before Trump was elected

Yes, it was pre trump. Obama was a massive deporter of people and families.
Obama took no joy in it, trump DOES.

but americans who watch the 'news' only get one side of the story

further they beleive everyone stays in these 'cages' forever when in fact many of the kids have been moved to military bases, like Ft Sill, where they are staying in the same housing that was used for the same purpose under the Obama admin.

So the problem is... what?

these are the things that our wrong here- unbalanced information flow that only serves to polarize the american population

When your C-in-C calls the other side fake, it's not just the news.

--------------------------
"i refuse to say whats wrong?"

not really true, i have said that past american actions of regime change and imperialism were and are wrong and that a retraction of american power should begin

that means that I do believe that these things were wrong. how could it be interpreted any other way? The things I have said certainly do not equate to me believing they were correct actions.

but overall, i am not going to apologize for the actions of those in govt who have done these things. many involved were not even elected officials, so cant even blame the voters

Here is the thing.
You can't make a mess, then say "it was my daddy's fault" and claim "no fowl" when you live of the gains of those decisions.

it was not in my power to effect these wrongs, so it is certainly not in my responsibility to apologize for them

You didn't make the error, but it is up to your nation to deal with it.
Australia should fix Manus Island, we should support PNG because we as a nation screwed them over.
It's not personally "my fault" but we DID make it happen as a nation.

[Annoyed]

MAGA means Make America what it was in the 50's and 60's, and allowing all the social problems of that time to just come back.
Is that what you want?

No, that's just the aspect that you wish to focus on. It wasn't a perfect society back then, it had problems. But what society is perfect?

What you continually ignore is that for the majority of working class people, things were far better in the past, and that is what MAGA wants to restore. And race has little to do with it. Far more important is trade, job outsourcing, etc.

The biggest reason people throw the race card on Trump is that he wants to strictly enforce immigration laws. And the reason they can do that is that illegal immigration is primarily a problem on our southern border. But the thing is, the laws, and what Trump wants to do doesn't mention race at all. It would be the same if, at this point in time, the primary source of illegal immigrants was Canada, Norway or whereever. The only difference is where the current crop of illegals is coming from.

So the racist angle isn't enforcement of the laws, it's where the lawbreakers are coming from. That's not Trump's (or the US's) fault.

[Annoyed]

Who said that?

I would say Canada, since it appears to be a meme based on a photo of a sign they've put up.
Most countries have restrictions on entry.

[Annoyed]

I have decried our nations treatment of Asylum seekers for a VERY long time.
We should never have had "off shore" processing, EVER, nor should we have had the "boat people" policy either.

I have NEVER wavered in that stance, no matter what my government does.
So, kindly, piss off.
keeping people "out" might help in the short term, but it never does in the long term.
The DIFFERENCE here is you embrace keeping people out, and I don't.

Doesn't matter what your own personal view is. Your country does what we are trying to do, to some degree. And you have the nerve to call us out on it? Here's a hint: Charity begins at home. So, why don't you petition your government, start protests and so forth demanding that Australia start sending boats to the Panama Canal region, inviting refugees or whatever to come to your country.

[Chaka-Z0]

and that whole 'america is the only nation that bans illegal immigrants' mania?

https://scontent.fagc1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...1a&oe=5DEC0691

Literally nobody ever said that, as GF pointed out. Then if I may, a few comments on that meme.

First, it's terribly cropped
Second, it doesn't follow any official model
Third, the caption sucks it's not even meme material

I would say Canada, since it appears to be a meme based on a photo of a sign they've put up.
Most countries have restrictions on entry.

Canada said that the US is the only nation that bans illegals or you failed to quote the right post? (that was Magi's OP)

[Gatefan1976]

No, that's just the aspect that you wish to focus on. It wasn't a perfect society back then, it had problems. But what society is perfect?

What you continually ignore is that for the majority of working class people, things were far better in the past, and that is what MAGA wants to restore. And race has little to do with it. Far more important is trade, job outsourcing, etc.

Listen up you absolute numpty.
In the 50's and 60's, you did not have women or black/tanned people voting, they were not ALLOWED to vote, it was just a boys club, a white, entitled boys club.
Now that they can vote, you want to limit their vote as much as you can because they don't believe in what you believe.

That's the reason race and gender gets "thrown in your face" Annoyed.

The biggest reason people throw the race card on Trump is that he wants to strictly enforce immigration laws. And the reason they can do that is that illegal immigration is primarily a problem on our southern border. But the thing is, the laws, and what Trump wants to do doesn't mention race at all. It would be the same if, at this point in time, the primary source of illegal immigrants was Canada, Norway or whereever. The only difference is where the current crop of illegals is coming from.

This is bullsh*t
You get more illegals from planes and overstays than any caravan. What does trump say about that?
NOTHING.
What do you say about it?
NOTHING,
But Hispanics are worth it, WHY??

So the racist angle isn't enforcement of the laws, it's where the lawbreakers are coming from. That's not Trump's (or the US's) fault.

Start deporting people who look like you, you can start with your "first lady" who had an anchor baby to stay in the US AFTER BREAKING YOUR LAWS.

But, that does not happen, or "some people" don't do it, other "some people" do.

[Gatefan1976]

Doesn't matter what your own personal view is. Your country does what we are trying to do, to some degree. And you have the nerve to call us out on it? Here's a hint: Charity begins at home. So, why don't you petition your government, start protests and so forth demanding that Australia start sending boats to the Panama Canal region, inviting refugees or whatever to come to your country.

I do something about it.
I vote, which is all I can do I vote to support people, you vote to ignore them, or call them problems.

[Chaka-Z0]

US population
1950: 152 millions
2019: 327 millions

Explain how MAGA fixes that?

And just to bury the poor attempt at evasion, (Magi and co argued about MAGA term was used by everyone) sure, no sh*t making a country great is the politician's go-to. The difference is that Trump uses this as his war cry, almost on the same level than a Heil Chaka!.

On many occasions he simply tweets MAGA!! It's way beyond a simple slogan now and he never stopped campaigning all the way through his first mandate.

It is the branding of politics. A very slippery slope as far as history goes. Collateral damage is the worst, the flame of hate fueled once again in unstable people ending up in a tragic bloodbath. All the conditions are met, the tools and the habitat.

I hold Trump personally responsible for the Ohio and el Paso shootings. The manifesto clearly mentioned an invasion, his exact words, it wasn't unforeseeable, it isn't forgivable. And AGAIN the cops didn't take the warnings seriously, they knew but didn't act because to them it's business as usual. How fked up is that?

[Annoyed]

I do something about it.
I vote, which is all I can do I vote to support people, you vote to ignore them, or call them problems.

Because my opinion on the issue is different. I vote too. Which of the people on the ballot in 2016 made the proper noises about the topic?

[Gatefan1976]

Because my opinion on the issue is different. I vote too. Which of the people on the ballot in 2016 made the proper noises about the topic?

I'm glad you vote.
We can disagree on what each other view as the "right way" to go forward, I have no issue with you, or anyone else using their vote.
What I have a very big issue with, is people who vote to deny other people votes.

Oh, and BTW, just to remind you, you lost the vote.

[Annoyed]

I'm glad you vote.
We can disagree on what each other view as the "right way" to go forward, I have no issue with you, or anyone else using their vote.
What I have a very big issue with, is people who vote to deny other people votes.

Oh, and BTW, just to remind you, you lost the vote.

If that's the case, then why is the guy who made the proper noises about the topic in the White House making the left crazy?
And I don't have a problem with other people voting as long as they are legally entitled to do so and are able to prove it with a govt. issued photo ID card of some sort.

That's all I ask. Be legal, and provide positive proof of identity. That's not unreasonable, is it?

[Chaka-Z0]

If that's the case, then why is the guy who made the proper noises about the topic in the White House making the left crazy?
And I don't have a problem with other people voting as long as they are legally entitled to do so and are able to prove it with a govt. issued photo ID card of some sort.

That's all I ask. Be legal, and provide positive proof of identity. That's not unreasonable, is it?

What? US citizens don't have to show proof of identity with an official govt-issued ID (Drivers license, health insurance card (oh snap wait you don't get this one xD) or else?)??