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    Thank you for your post, I just want to point out that I am not trying to compare nuclear vs fossil waste. It is obvious to me that fossil energies create much more damage than nuclear waste.

    HLW represents a very small percentage of waste that and be piled up on a football field (American) a few feet high. Most other waste can decay to a more natural point a radically less time and a lot can be reused and recycled. Nuclear power isn't a solution, not long term, but it is a way to buy us a few decades maybe even a century or two of time if we went for it.
    Granted the amount of HLW is marginal, yet the *low-level nuclear wastes disposal sites* contains some medium to high level as well, in smaller quantities, by the own admission of their owners. It has been proven that it is practically impossible to separate and triage all of the wastes and some HLW and MLW can be mixed in the lots. Also MLW and HLW have to be stored somewhere, and most companies try to split them in their sites. Creating a coffer for these would require burying HLW so deep underground that the venture is simply astronomical in terms of costs.

    You said radically less time, that much is true when you compare to 24K years for HLW, but that still means 30 to 100 to 1-2k years depending on the type of waste. Also when there is abundant rain or/and earthquakes, a small portion escapes the coffer and is leaked into the surrounding environment (underground aquifer, plants, animals, etc.).

    Chalk River (Isotope facility - Canada): There has been contamination in the St-Lawrence river since it's creation, as proven by many scientists that took samples in the surrounding wilderness / wildlife. Recently, in March, a project (in French, sorry) has been submitted to create yet a new nuclear waste disposal facility, located less than 1KM of the Ottawa river. The technology has evolved significantly to prevent such leakage, new types of coffers for instance, but there is simply no way a coffer can be 100% leak-proof. Any waste leak damages what it touches, no matter the quantity. Also the major issues with these sites is that given the amount of time they need to remain operational (we're talking centuries), you need to ensure a certain continuity with the next generations. Some future leaders might not prove wise and cut the investments resulting in deficient maintenance.

    As for those incidents, the damage has been done with all the actual nuclear explosions from the era of above ground testing.

    Agreed, underwater testing did its part as well.

    Chernobyl caused more damage in loss of land than in human life...mostly actual plant workers and first responders were the victims as far as radiation poisoning.
    That's correct, but still many children in the Russian Federation and over 5000 people were affected by Thyroid cancer and other illnesses, resulting mostly from drinking milk of local cows. This could have been easily prevented if the authorities actually informed their citizens about the dangers of drinking locally produce food.(Source: World Health Organization)

    Not to mention Chernobyl used a reactor that the US (and everyone else) didn't use, a ver faulty one at that. It's telling that the USSR didn't have more Chernobyls. What happened there was a perfect storm of horrible designing, atrocious disregard for safety protocols followed by...everyone outside of the USSR, and a suicidal response of "nothing to see here, move along".
    Couldn't be more true.
    1. Chernobyl had very poor safeguard measures. They waited too long to activate the iron poles to block the reaction in the core, and when they did, the heat had melted the conduits so much it wasn't operational anymore. The heroic action of two divers prevented the radiation *soup* from reaching the lower levels that were flooded with water, by activating the pumps. If the *soup* would've made contact with the water below, the resulting explosion would've been of biblical proportions (a radius of approximately 300KM would've been annihilated). Not to mention the amount of workers that also gave their lives to build a big concrete bowl underground in order to catch the *soup*. Truly, it is a miracle that the catastrophe of a complete meltdown of the adjacent reactors was averted.

    2. The lead scientist of the project made a series of bad to ridiculously reckless and stupid decisions when he gave the go ahead to proceed with the test, ignoring the warnings from his workers and all employees of the facility. The reactor wasn't even working properly when they begun the test!

    3. Authorities waited for days (I think one full week?) before ordering an evacuation of Pripyat and other surrounding towns, and in a classic USSR fashion, kept the whole thing under wrap as long as they could.
    The zone around it is teeming with wildlife...and apparently a tourist trap...but its radiation levels are below hazardous levels.
    Yes nature is stronger than we all think, wildlife has reclaimed the area and actually is thriving according to a recent survey, since there is no human activity anymore. To this day though, some areas surrounding the reactor is still off limits, many *hot spots* remain and are deadly radioactive.

    Fukushima was mostly a small leak in the wake of a massive natural disaster. The only deaths recorded were tsunami related, not nuclear related. So far Nuclear power has killed about ten times less people than hydroelectric power (dams breaking apart). Everyone south of the Hoover Dam has a greater risk of sudden death or loss of property than people around Three Mile Island ever did.
    The main problem with these leaks is that it is really hard to measure its effects. People can get sick naturally, or artificially, quite hard to tell unless the victims had direct contact. The wind carries radiation, and I remember for some time there were concerns about the radiation cloud reaching British Columbia coast.

    Stating that humans have no impact on Earth's climate is ludicrous. Nuclear energy is *cleaner* until an incident happens or a bomb gets dropped.

    My apologies for the long post, this is a subject that I am passionate about and I've gone a bit off topic
    Spoiler:
    I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
      Instead of a petrol shortage?


      Trump will solve that haha.

      He's making demands on OPEC to lower their prices. Wonder how that's gonna work out
      Go home aliens, go home!!!!

      Comment


        Originally posted by Coco Pops View Post
        Trump will solve that haha.

        He's making demands on OPEC to lower their prices. Wonder how that's gonna work out
        Doesn't matter, Pruitt allowed drilling before he quit, so the US will use it's own resources.
        I'm sure someone will think that the short term gain will be worth it.
        sigpic
        ALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.
        A lie is just a truth that hasn't gone through conversion therapy yet
        The truth isn't the truth

        Comment


          Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
          Doesn't matter, Pruitt allowed drilling before he quit, so the US will use it's own resources.
          I'm sure someone will think that the short term gain will be worth it.


          Short term gain, long term pain.
          Go home aliens, go home!!!!

          Comment


            Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
            Doesn't matter, Pruitt allowed drilling before he quit, so the US will use it's own resources.
            I'm sure someone will think that the short term gain will be worth it.
            You mean someone like me?
            You don't think it's a good idea that the US use its own oil stocks to make us less vulnerable to actions by other parties, such as OPEC? I rather think that is a good idea. We shouldn't allow OPEC or anyone else to hold our economy hostage.

            And what difference does Pruitt's stepping down make to overall energy policy? Don't you think Trump is going to appoint a replacement with a very similar approach?

            It does appear that Pruitt was up to no good, there's just too much smoke there for there not to be a fire. I have no issue with his being forced out.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Annoyed View Post
              there's just too much smoke there for there not to be a fire.
              just like the Russia collusion

              Comment


                Originally posted by SoulReaver View Post
                just like the Russia collusion
                And Hilarity...

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Annoyed View Post
                  Well, what do you suggest instead? We need to get energy from somewhere, we can't snap our fingers and have appear.

                  What is your suggestion, WITHOUT reducing energy use or raising its cost, which is devastating to our economy.
                  I only posted that because you said you didn't believe in the *enviro-crap pseudo-scientific stuff* and that the current global warming was not triggered by mankind. I assume you now realise you were wrong, judging by your comment. I'll answer your question nonetheless.

                  Solar panels parks

                  Solar panels in space


                  Much greater power generation potential (light isn't filtered by the atmosphere, we're talking about a 50-60% increase)
                  24/7 power generation (no day-night cycle) - The energy itself is 100% clean and durable.

                  Not economically viable as of now, but this might change sooner than later, if the moon base project actually happens. (I think it's ludicrous to say 2022, as Musk said, but perhaps in 10-15 years). The moon base will also enable us to build and send space shuttles and ships straight from space, therefore reducing drastically the amount of pollution created by a Earth-based rocket launch.

                  Ocean wave energy converters

                  There are many version of this, just do a quick search and you can find out for yourself.

                  Geothermal energy

                  I've seen a project that a small town was able to create significant energy by using water that warms up when flowing through an abandoned mine.

                  Road strips that recharge your cars while you drive on it

                  Sidewalks with tiles that generate energy when walked on by pedestrians

                  A city in Norway (forgot the name) actually supplies petrol made from... their collective sh*t. Yes, that's right. You can now eat your favorite Taco Bell combo with absolute peace of mind because you are contributing to the environment!

                  These are but a few examples, but obviously we are not about to abandon fossil energies completely in the snap of a finger, what you are asking for is impossible with our current energy requirements. The only way to achieve cost reduction is to rapidly take steps towards clean-energies development and invest in these technologies. It's sad that your country has taken so many steps backwards, with Trump's buffoons such as Pruitt (former) killing every environment initiatives out there.

                  Now I can see you coming from a mile away: ''But this will wreck our economy! they are stealing Billy bob's job on the oil rig!''
                  BS. More investments in these technologies leads to more research, which leads to more jobs in these fields and eventually more jobs in the manufacturing of these technologies. This would totally be in league with the type of economic model the US has, which is tech and knowledge oriented. Stop eating the lobbies bs that doing so would wreck your economy.
                  Last edited by Chaka-Z0; 06 July 2018, 11:48 AM.
                  Spoiler:
                  I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
                    What's your point? I only posted that because you said you didn't believe in the *enviro-crap pseudo-scientific stuff* and that the earth-warming is a natural cycle not triggered by mankind.
                    You're right, I don't think it's caused by mankind.
                    But you obviously do. So what is your answer? We have to get the energy from somewhere. Where do you suggest we get it, without reducing energy use or raising its cost, which is devastating to our economy?

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Annoyed View Post
                      You're right, I don't think it's caused by mankind.
                      But you obviously do. So what is your answer? We have to get the energy from somewhere. Where do you suggest we get it, without reducing energy use or raising its cost, which is devastating to our economy?
                      Something went wrong when I posted my previous message, see my edits.
                      Spoiler:
                      I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Annoyed View Post
                        You mean someone like me?
                        You don't think it's a good idea that the US use its own oil stocks to make us less vulnerable to actions by other parties, such as OPEC? I rather think that is a good idea. We shouldn't allow OPEC or anyone else to hold our economy hostage.

                        And what difference does Pruitt's stepping down make to overall energy policy? Don't you think Trump is going to appoint a replacement with a very similar approach?

                        It does appear that Pruitt was up to no good, there's just too much smoke there for there not to be a fire. I have no issue with his being forced out.
                        It is definitely not a good idea. You will see in a few years, when the prices start increasing. You should seriously try reading a few books on macro-economy.

                        Who do you think is gonna happen when other countries won't buy your oil because they can get the same product at a much lower price? OPEC has so much money they can afford to sell their barrels at loss for a long, long time and effectively render your companies uncompetitive.

                        Edit: Fun fact, OPEC can produce a barrel of crude oil at about 4-5$ per barrel. The US refineries can produce a barrel at an approximate cost of 40-50$ per barrel. I'll let you do the maths.
                        Last edited by Chaka-Z0; 06 July 2018, 12:33 PM.
                        Spoiler:
                        I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
                          Something went wrong when I posted my previous message, see my edits.
                          Most of your edited suggestions involve alternatives that are simply not on the shelves yet or are simply not practical.

                          Earth-based solar: Yeah, that's a good idea for much of the northern hemisphere. I dunno about where you live, but we can go for months at a time without more than trace exposure to direct sunlight. Winter can be a bear here. I remember in 1986, Haley's last flyby, was winter in these parts. I never did see it 'cause every time I had an opportunity to go look at it, it was clouded over. We've gone 2 months solid w/out sunshine in winter before. How's solar going to work out for us?

                          Solar power from space - not on the shelf.

                          Geothermal not on the shelf for large scale.

                          Tracks on the road that carry electricty - Streetcars? The energy has to come from somewhere, and how much will you lose in transmission loss on those miles-long tracks?

                          There are indeed many alternative ways to generate energy. but at this point in our development, nothing on the shelf can practically replace petroleum at the same cost for most portable energy needs, and Nuclear is the winner for stationary needs.

                          The point is that if you want to take something away, such as petroleum energy, you have to have something to replace it, and to put it simply, we just don't have it yet.

                          The tactics of most enviros is to ignore those harsh realities and just insist upon usage reduction, driven by legislation, or increasing the cost to make it less affordable (aside from the rich, that is) regardless of the consequences to our economy and way of life.

                          We (the population of the US in general) just aren't interested in using less. Look at car sales. The biggest sellers are SUV's & Trucks. People just aren't comfortable in tiny little deathtraps, and in many cases, those vehicles won't meet the needs of people.

                          So, you have to be able to replace petroleum with a practical alternative BEFORE you just tell people to stop using it.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Annoyed View Post
                            And Hilarity...
                            not smoke just hot air

                            Originally posted by Annoyed View Post
                            Earth-based solar: Yeah, that's a good idea for much of the northern hemisphere. I dunno about where you live, but we can go for months at a time without more than trace exposure to direct sunlight.
                            it's viable if combined with wind energy (how many days with neither sun nor wind?)

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by SoulReaver View Post
                              not smoke just hot air

                              it's viable if combined with wind energy (how many days with neither sun nor wind?)
                              First. last and always, Hilarity is as crooked as a 3 dollar bill and still won't accept the truth of why she lost and continues to point the finger at others. 'nuff about old news, however. I don't even think the dustbin of history wants her.

                              Wind power faces more opposition in the US than any other form of energy.
                              First off, none of them are self-sustaining, all are subsidized or failing. But maybe more important, NIMBY's rule on this. No one wants a wind farm in their neck of the woods, so there is tremendous opposition to them, even if the proposed location in offshore in a lake, or some other deserted location. Seems the birds don't have the brains not to fly into them and get shredded.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Annoyed View Post
                                First off, none of them are self-sustaining, all are subsidized or failing
                                that's a question of popularity

                                But maybe more important, NIMBY's rule on this. No one wants a wind farm in their neck of the woods, so there is tremendous opposition to them, even if the proposed location in offshore in a lake, or some other deserted location. Seems the birds don't have the brains not to fly into them and get shredded.
                                assuming the NIMB crowd's significant: in urban settings this shouldn't be a problem (concrete buildings are a lot uglier) and in rural areas what's to stop households from using individual turbines instead (in conjunction with rooftop solar panels). high cost at first but well worth it in the not-so-long run

                                Comment

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