The Political Discussion Thread

[Falcon Horus]

Yet still somehow exactly like Saudi Arabia?

I said, well on its way...

You're still missing a state religion, but give it some time and Annoyed's 6-3 SCOTUS and you'll get that too.

So nothing has changed?

As far as the recent news goes, as of yet, no.

However, in regards to joining the military, ...

US Defence Secretary Jim Mattis gives military chiefs six months to review policy on transgender recruits

"US Defence Secretary Jim Mattis is giving the military chiefs another six months to conduct a review to determine if allowing transgender individuals to enlist in the armed services will affect the "readiness or lethality" of the force.

Pentagon spokeswoman Dana White said Mr Mattis made the decision Friday. The delay in allowing the enlistment of new recruits does not affect transgender troops who are already serving openly in the military.

[...]

Transgender service members have been able to serve openly in the military since last year, when former Defence Secretary Ash Carter ended the ban, declaring it the right thing to do. Since Oct. 1, transgender troops have been able to receive medical care and start formally changing their gender identifications in the Pentagon's personnel system."

That'd be hard to accomplish for men transitioning into women. They'd effectively would be actively weakening their body by reducing their testosterone levels. As for women to men, in the battle field, I question the logistics of going through the trouble of making sure hormone levels don't wreak habit with their ability to fight to their most optimal level. That means they'd have to prove themselves pre-hormone treatment on physical tests. That's be hard if they are in the middle of transitioning.

From the above article:

"But Mr Carter also gave the services until July 1 to develop policies to allow people already identifying as transgender to newly join the military, if they meet physical, medical and other standards, and have been stable in their identified genders for 18 months."

Why on Earth should the military pay for that? Why should anyone? Everything you've posted points away from lack of transitioning being a key cause of suicide.

Does the military pay for prostetic limps?
Does it pay for the care of soldiers who happen to get run over by a car? (not even in battle)
Does it pay for mental health services?
Does it pay for corrective surgery?

Health coverage = all of it, or none of it -- you can't pick and choose what you deem worthy of covering (that's what Trumpcare's for -- which isn't voted through yet)

I do have to ask though, why are transgenders more suicidal than "cisgendered" homosexuals? Anyway, what does this have to do with the laws of the land?

Let's see, laws to deter discrimination, to offer legal protection for minorities, ... f.e. the Equality Act (H.R.2282; S.1006)

"The Equality Act would provide consistent and explicit non-discrimination protections for LGBTQ people across key areas of life, including employment, housing, credit, education, public spaces and services, federally funded programs, and jury service. "

Or the Safe Schools Improvement Act (H.R. 1957)

"The Safe Schools Improvement Act (SSIA) would amend the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA) to require school districts in states that receive ESEA funds to adopt codes of conduct specifically prohibiting bullying and harassment, including on the basis of race, color, national origin, sex, disability, sexual orientation, gender identity, and religion. SSIA would also require that states report data on bullying and harassment to the Department of Education. The Department of Education would then be required to provide Congress with a report on the state reported data every two years."

Here's what gets me. When it comes to transgender people spend an awful a lot of time separating sex and gender but then turn around and use those two terms interchangeably. And again, this is related to the legal system............

Here's an idea (since we've already been over that) let's look at them as people who deserve the same amount of respect as you and I (how much you think you deserve or not deserve is irrelevant). You know, human beings with the whole range of emotions, feelings, hopes and dreams, likes and dislikes.

This is triggered by the legal system by...........????

Re: Bullying and LGBT youth

Did I say it was triggered? -- Nope, I didn't.
But the legal system sure has a wide range of legislations against bullying and harassments so it's definitely triggered by something (plenty of groups and organizations out there who tell their members they are better than anyone else out there).

I have a better idea, why not just let people poop as they please? This is what happens when you want the government to legislate everything. Stores could easily end the practice of bathroom use if they feel strongly about regulating people's pooping habits.

When you gotta go, you gotta go, and whichever toilet is closest, that's the lucky one.

But states apparently have a different opinion about it.

You already shared this one before, and just as I said last time, this actually doesn't prove any link between transitioning and suicide rates. Not to mention these are rates of unsuccessful suicide attempts that are reported by those surveyed, not actual suicides which are very hard to track in this detail.

I wasn't aware I was supposed to present proof that transitioning was the reason for suicide. Or the suicide still happened after transition.

I presented a report which states why, even after transitioning people still attempt to kill themselves. As per Garhkal's questioning.

Attempted suicides are no less serious than one that was succesful. They are no less an indication something isn't going right in the person's life than an attempt that's succesful. They stop living cause why bother trying when people are just hell bent to make your life miserable no matter what.

A battle with no chance of winning is one you stop fighting after a while -- just too tired to continue.

The US doesn't have the highest rates...

Oh yeah... not so bad then hu...

As for rejection, I do wonder how high were suicide rates among African Americans in the south in the height of Jim Crow laws? Or any oppressed peoples for that matter.

Jim Crow and premature mortality among African-Americans

If they were recorded, you'd have gotten them.
But according to white psychiatrist during the Jim Crow era, African-Americans were unlikely to commit suicide. It was a white man's disease.

I thought you said they were killed because they were transgendered? So how should I take your word then? Should I assume that you are always being accurate? Or should I always question every statement you make? I can assure you, the list of Hispanics killed in the US is much much much much much (by a factor a lot more) higher than transgender women (What of men?) yet I highly doubt that is a result of racism just because "evil whitey".

Yeah, I did and I was prematurely assuming they were. I don't expect you to take my word on anything. I'm fairly certain you don't believe half of what I say anyway.
I was wrong to do so. I could have ignored it, and gone with my assumption but I didn't.

Personally, if birth control is needed for any medical issue, sure that should be covered. But if it is just simply to prevent pregnancy, they have a job. They can save up money for when they feel like they need to get into someone's pants. You can take out condoms and Viagra from coverage while your at it too. Otherwise, people do need to take some responsibility for when and how they want to take off their pants.

Here's an example of birth control: I take it. If I didn't, I'd be incapacitated 2 weeks every month, with killer migraines (light sensative, worshipping the porcelain goddess -- the works). I'm migraine-free and period-free. (I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, ..., really hate having them -- but I don't thanks to my awesome birth control pills which halt my hormones from being all womanly).

But yes, if birth coltrol has to go, then so does viagra or any other aid for the failing male libido. That's birth coltrol all on its own.

I'd want to consider if there ought to be any differention between a church based adoption agency versus a secular one, mainly denoted by funding sources. If a church based agency that doesn't receive money from the government and funded through the church wants to decide what couples to work with, I say let them. If they get outside funding, then that's a problem.

The South Dakota ones are still state-funded.

[Falcon Horus]

Heck other than a little polite chit-chat (dude this concert's awesome/so what games you running at this convention), MOST guys observe the rule of "don't chat whien whizzing".

I'm so glad, I can hide in a cubicle. I'm fulfilling a basic human function in a public space with other people nearby -- that's hard enough as it is.

BUT do you think those perverts who have done those incidents in changing rooms/public toilets, WOULD have done them still, had it not been for Target and other stores SHIFTING their policy to be LGBTQ inclusive, to where no one can stop a man walking into the woman's restroom/changing rooms??

Yes, they will still do that -- no matter the rules. If the rules didn't stop them before, what makes you think it'll stop them now?

You're just making it inconvenient for others who just want to go and pee and/or poop, or just need to refresh.

As i pointed out above... Cost.

And as I pointed out, wounded soldiers cost you more.

So a company should be FORCED to provide birth control, but can't tell workers, pay up more cause your smoking/obesity is costing US more to cover you?

Did you know that American insurance providers are already making smokers pay more for insurance?
That there in fact employers who discriminate against smoking applicants for vacancies?

Yeah, neither that I.

Did you know that employers don't like their female employees getting pregnant too often? It might not be a written rule, but if you can avoid hiring a young, fertile and planning to have kids female, than that's exactly what an employer will do -- just to save the cost of having to deal with prolonged absences. So, birth control would literally be a win on costs.

Like i am going to take the word of a Political science professor at a liberal university, on how much it would cost the military... Now if he was an economist, AND was a former mil member themselves, i might take their word.

Okay fine... here you go, unless Pentagon officials are not good enough either:

"Estimating the real impact
The number of troops seeking care is likely to be very small. A study published in the New England Journal of Medicine estimates it will be fewer than 200 each year from a total force of 1.3 million active duty troops.

Pentagon officials estimate the total cost of that health care coverage to be between $4 and $14 million, a small sliver of the Defense Department’s total health care budget of about $60 billion.

In the private-sector, some insurance companies extend coverage for gender transition care at no additional cost. Studies show transgender coverage actually reduces insurance companies' overall expense by reducing the need for other treatments, such as metal health care or substance abuse treatment."

[garhkal]

It's only federal law to require bathrooms for employees. A few states require for patrons but not many. More than anything it's a bad business practice to not have a public restroom

I can see it being 'bad business' for not having any for customers, but why the general public?

You're still missing a state religion, but give it some time and Annoyed's 6-3 SCOTUS and you'll get that too.

Why may i ask, do you think having a 6-3 conservative biased court, will some how lead to a 'national/state religion? ESPECIALLY when the constitution prohibits congress establishing a state religion??

Does the military pay for prostetic limps?

Yes. However, if you earned your amputation from certain activities, they can say "NO we won't". Such as one of our guys when i was out at NOB Sandiego, who drove drunk, crashed his car and had his right leg severed.. CAUSE HE drove drunk, the Mil told him flat out "You are on your own"..

Does it pay for the care of soldiers who happen to get run over by a car? (not even in battle)

See above

Does it pay for corrective surgery?

From my time in, i saw many people have to pay out of pocket if they wanted say Wart/mole removals, lasic, or lipo.. So from what i have witnessed i would say no the mil doesn't..

Health coverage = all of it, or none of it -- you can't pick and choose what you deem worthy of covering (that's what Trumpcare's for -- which isn't voted through yet)

I disagree hole heartedly. If you are doing something illegal or downright stupid, you shouldn't get covered..

When you gotta go, you gotta go, and whichever toilet is closest, that's the lucky one.

SO why even HAVE toilets labled for one sex or the other.. JUst have porta potties..

Yes, they will still do that -- no matter the rules. If the rules didn't stop them before, what makes you think it'll stop them now?

Thats funny, cause other than some incidents in open areas of malls where someone was doing the camera up skirts, i never HEARD of any incidents where a guy followed a gal in to the changing room/toilets and tried molesting them, BEFORE THIS hoopla came out...

Did you know that American insurance providers are already making smokers pay more for insurance?

Yes i do. IN fact two of the companies i was looking at when i was retiring, i said NO TO, after i found out that they not only charge more for smokers, but one also said "If you work for us, you must agree to not smoke, PERIOD, NOT just at work, but when NOT at work"...

Okay fine... here you go, unless Pentagon officials are not good enough either:

Ok... That's better..
Yes 4 mil or so, is a 'drop in the bucket', but its STILL a large cost..

[jelgate]

Unless you are a really small store its not practical to separate customers from people just browsing.

I think by corrective FH meant plastic surgery. Plastic surgery is not just for low self-esteem woman (like pookey). If your face gets blown up from a bomb it is still technically plastic surgery to fix it

[Falcon Horus]

And here we go -- NDAA Anti-Transgender Amendment Fails in House of Representatives

"...the defeat of a hateful and cruel amendment proposed by Representative Vicky Hartzler (R-MO) to the FY18 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) which would ban critical access to transition-related health care for military service members and their families. The amendment was defeated by a vote of 214-209 with 24 Republican “nay” votes."

[aretood2]

Does the military pay for prostetic limps?
Does it pay for the care of soldiers who happen to get run over by a car? (not even in battle)
Does it pay for mental health services?
Does it pay for corrective surgery?

Health coverage = all of it, or none of it -- you can't pick and choose what you deem worthy of covering (that's what Trumpcare's for -- which isn't voted through yet)

I don't see how any of that is comparable. And yes, you can pick and choose. In fact the Israeli system is basically that. A basic basket coverage for everyone with options to buy extra stuff.

Let's see, laws to deter discrimination, to offer legal protection for minorities, ... f.e. the Equality Act (H.R.2282; S.1006)

"The Equality Act would provide consistent and explicit non-discrimination protections for LGBTQ people across key areas of life, including employment, housing, credit, education, public spaces and services, federally funded programs, and jury service. "

Or the Safe Schools Improvement Act (H.R. 1957)

"The Safe Schools Improvement Act (SSIA) would amend the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA) to require school districts in states that receive ESEA funds to adopt codes of conduct specifically prohibiting bullying and harassment, including on the basis of race, color, national origin, sex, disability, sexual orientation, gender identity, and religion. SSIA would also require that states report data on bullying and harassment to the Department of Education. The Department of Education would then be required to provide Congress with a report on the state reported data every two years."

You can't legislate problems away, that was my point. Murder has been illegal for as long as the concept has existed, and yet it still happens in exceedingly high rates.

Here's an idea (since we've already been over that) let's look at them as people who deserve the same amount of respect as you and I (how much you think you deserve or not deserve is irrelevant). You know, human beings with the whole range of emotions, feelings, hopes and dreams, likes and dislikes.

Here's an idea, if you're going to talk about respecting people why don't you show me the respect of not assuming I'm a dick?

Re: Bullying and LGBT youth

Did I say it was triggered? -- Nope, I didn't.
But the legal system sure has a wide range of legislations against bullying and harassments so it's definitely triggered by something (plenty of groups and organizations out there who tell their members they are better than anyone else out there).

What's your point in mentioning this at all?

I wasn't aware I was supposed to present proof that transitioning was the reason for suicide. Or the suicide still happened after transition.

I presented a report which states why, even after transitioning people still attempt to kill themselves. As per Garhkal's questioning.

My point is that you seem to portray paying for people's transitions as a necessity on the account of their proclivity towards suicide. But that only makes sense if transitioning would end and prevent said suicides...which isn't the case.

Oh yeah... not so bad then hu...

If you're going to say that the US is the worst....then of course I'm going to point out that that is not the case. It seems like you are moving goal posts.

Jim Crow and premature mortality among African-Americans

If they were recorded, you'd have gotten them.
But according to white psychiatrist during the Jim Crow era, African-Americans were unlikely to commit suicide. It was a white man's disease.

https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/
Sucide rates among Native Americans and Whites far outpace suicide rates among Hispanics and blacks...although there's the inherent "hispanic isn't a race" issue for those numbers....But it seems that marginalization does not cause increase suicide rates among the major minorities as it does among the majority and the Natives. I'm more.
My sister once made an observation that I've been wanting to find out if it is true, that you don't see people killing themselves simply because of race based bullying or marginalization. Let's take this to the extreme, I would also want to know about suicide among groups targeted in the holocaust. I'm not denying that bullying has deleterious effects that can lead to depression and suicidal tendencies and ultimately suicide, but I'm of the understanding that it often is targeted and highly personal and directly malicious up fronts that tend to cause that result. Unless there are other factors at play.

Yeah, I did and I was prematurely assuming they were. I don't expect you to take my word on anything. I'm fairly certain you don't believe half of what I say anyway.
I was wrong to do so. I could have ignored it, and gone with my assumption but I didn't.

That's where you're wrong. I usually take your word for it. Though a confession, I already knew your reply was BS. I already have read about those killings and saw a news report about a group of transwomen friends that were also killed in separate incidents (in a Spanish source no less) here in the US. The thing is that motives are still unknown. Every time a black guy gets shot, it doesn't mean a racist white cop did it.

Here's an example of birth control: I take it. If I didn't, I'd be incapacitated 2 weeks every month, with killer migraines (light sensative, worshipping the porcelain goddess -- the works). I'm migraine-free and period-free. (I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, ..., really hate having them -- but I don't thanks to my awesome birth control pills which halt my hormones from being all womanly).

Thus "if birth control is needed for any medical issue, sure that should be covered."

The South Dakota ones are still state-funded.

Then that's a problem.

[aretood2]

Why may i ask, do you think having a 6-3 conservative biased court, will some how lead to a 'national/state religion? ESPECIALLY when the constitution prohibits congress establishing a state religion??

Personally? Because the conservative definition of religious freedom is basically adopting Evangelical beliefs as the state creed. I don't know if I've been clear in my disdain for that group. They are the most theologically uneducated group of Christians since Medieval Catholics. Buddhist children in Nepal know more about the ins and outs of Jesus' teaching than they do. Apply that to a fanatcal desire to see the US as the "New Israel" and then you are just asking for all sorts of trouble. I just don't trust that at all and Conservatives are all to willing to oblige them.

SO why even HAVE toilets labled for one sex or the other.. JUst have porta potties..

Those are Victorian era leftovers that really don't make too much sense but to be honest...we are at the point where we are still uncomfortable with the notion of unisex public bathrooms. I know this because ther are many places that have "Men's" bathrooms and "women's" bathrooms that only have one sink, and one toilet yet it is still labeled by sex...because...I honestly don't know why. I mean, if only one person at a time will be in it...why bother labeling it by sex? In any case, I am very reluctant in using the women's toilet even though it only has room for one person. Weird huh?

Thats funny, cause other than some incidents in open areas of malls where someone was doing the camera up skirts, i never HEARD of any incidents where a guy followed a gal in to the changing room/toilets and tried molesting them, BEFORE THIS hoopla came out...

Could it be that the media and nation weren't looking for this behavior, and thus when reported it didn't go beyond the most local of news under the part of the newspapers that list all the traffic crimes and police calls?

Yes i do. IN fact two of the companies i was looking at when i was retiring, i said NO TO, after i found out that they not only charge more for smokers, but one also said "If you work for us, you must agree to not smoke, PERIOD, NOT just at work, but when NOT at work"...

Why? And how is that legal?

Nah. It is more sad but then you are white and full of Australian Guilt. So I can understand you inappropriate response to it.

Why are you bringing race into this?

[Gatefan1976]

Personally? Because the conservative definition of religious freedom is basically adopting Evangelical beliefs as the state creed. I don't know if I've been clear in my disdain for that group. They are the most theologically uneducated group of Christians since Medieval Catholics. Buddhist children in Nepal know more about the ins and outs of Jesus' teaching than they do. Apply that to a fanatcal desire to see the US as the "New Israel" and then you are just asking for all sorts of trouble. I just don't trust that at all and Conservatives are all to willing to oblige them.

Spot on.
You legislate -evangelical- values, and when someone points out that they are evangelical values, you just say "no they are not"
BTW, this is exactly where FH is going where she makes the comparison to Saudi Arabia, theocracy by proxy.

Those are Victorian era leftovers that really don't make too much sense but to be honest...we are at the point where we are still uncomfortable with the notion of unisex public bathrooms. I know this because ther are many places that have "Men's" bathrooms and "women's" bathrooms that only have one sink, and one toilet yet it is still labeled by sex...because...I honestly don't know why. I mean, if only one person at a time will be in it...why bother labeling it by sex? In any case, I am very reluctant in using the women's toilet even though it only has room for one person. Weird huh?

There is also the tampon/pad bin in the ladies or unisex toilets, something else that makes some guys uncomfortable.

Could it be that the media and nation weren't looking for this behavior, and thus when reported it didn't go beyond the most local of news under the part of the newspapers that list all the traffic crimes and police calls?

Or that it only got elevated to the national stage to be weaponised?

Why? And how is that legal?

At will employment laws, they own your arse 24/7.

Why are you bringing race into this?

Because he thinks I feel personal guilt for things like the White Australia policy, or the Stolen Generation where the Australian Government performed some heinous acts. Somehow the ability to recognize and not try to repeat the errors of the past means I feel guilty for them.

[aretood2]

Spot on.
You legislate -evangelical- values, and when someone points out that they are evangelical values, you just say "no they are not"
BTW, this is exactly where FH is going where she makes the comparison to Saudi Arabia, theocracy by proxy.

I just don't believe that the government and those in it need to run around pretending that religion is Voldemort and thus dare not say its name. But at the same token, the laws of the state need not match up with the Bible. It would be best if it would, however it is not possible because in order for it to work everyone would have to buy into it, which isn't going to happen. If ut didn't even happen in the old testament with Israel of all places, it's most certainly never going to happen in the US. This is what a lot in the religious right just don't understand.

There is also the tampon/pad bin in the ladies or unisex toilets, something else that makes some guys uncomfortable.

Funny thing is, it doesn't seem to bother me the way it ought to...

Or that it only got elevated to the national stage to be weaponised?

Same thing

At will employment laws, they own your arse 24/7.

Me thinks such laws are misnamed.

Because he thinks I feel personal guilt for things like the White Australia policy, or the Stolen Generation where the Australian Government performed some heinous acts. Somehow the ability to recognize and not try to repeat the errors of the past means I feel guilty for them.

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, and I work with teenagers so that should tell you something.

[Gatefan1976]

I just don't believe that the government and those in it need to run around pretending that religion is Voldemort and thus dare not say its name. But at the same token, the laws of the state need not match up with the Bible. It would be best if it would, however it is not possible because in order for it to work everyone would have to buy into it, which isn't going to happen. If ut didn't even happen in the old testament with Israel of all places, it's most certainly never going to happen in the US. This is what a lot in the religious right just don't understand.

They should not be afraid to say religion, that's true, but I don't think that secular laws should match any religions laws down the line. A concordance between the two will happen, but that should be because it protects and is reasonable to all, not to any one group.

Funny thing is, it doesn't seem to bother me the way it ought to...

Like I said, -some-.

Same thing

Sure.

Me thinks such laws are misnamed.

Nah, you are just thinking about it from personal will, rather than corporate will. You think of it as corporate will, the name is accurate.

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, and I work with teenagers so that should tell you something.

That's the white guilt argument.

[jelgate]

Spot on.
You legislate -evangelical- values, and when someone points out that they are evangelical values, you just say "no they are not"
BTW, this is exactly where FH is going where she makes the comparison to Saudi Arabia, theocracy by proxy.

There is also the tampon/pad bin in the ladies or unisex toilets, something else that makes some guys uncomfortable.


Or that it only got elevated to the national stage to be weaponised?

At will employment laws, they own your arse 24/7.


Because he thinks I feel personal guilt for things like the White Australia policy, or the Stolen Generation where the Australian Government performed some heinous acts. Somehow the ability to recognize and not try to repeat the errors of the past means I feel guilty for them.

Don't get me started about at will employment. It gives employess almost no rights which I find to be a problem for the workfoce

[Gatefan1976]

Don't get me started about at will employment. It gives employess almost no rights which I find to be a problem for the workfoce

Well, you know how evil unions are

[jelgate]

Its all a balancing. I see where Annoyed comes from about over unionization but right now in the US where you can be fired for anything but discrimination I find just as terrible as people being unfireable

[Gatefan1976]

Its all a balancing. I see where Annoyed comes from about over unionization but right now in the US where you can be fired for anything but discrimination I find just as terrible as people being unfireable

You mean public sector unions?
Yeah, I can see where he is coming from on that as well at least in terms of creating a "protected class", and I'll even agree with him that -that- is a bad thing. Where I vehemently disagree is that is the fault of the -teachers- themselves (as that is his favourite target), or that they are even reaping the benefits of it.

[jelgate]

I wasn't being specific honestly . Just my lack of power in the rules established with at will employment makes me see unions in a more positive light