The Political Discussion Thread

[Gatefan1976]

So we are deporting US citizens now?? Is that what you are saying here?

The legal kids should be deported with their parents, right?
It's not what -I- am saying, it's what you are saying, I just changed the target, not the laws you are in favour of.

True, they do have to prove it, but since they invariably confiscate the stuff WHILE awaiting it, and only if not proven does it get returned (or should it be returned), in a way they are still suffering..

Is that a good thing?

That is an interesting counter argument. BUT YOU or I on a tourism visa, say to china fall under that country's laws. YES OR NO?

The don't have visa's.
If I had a visa and I broke Chinese law, I could request aid from my native country, they cannot.

BUT we are still under our home country's Jurisdiction, correct?
THAT IS IMO what that part is saying.

Read the whole article.

And how many generations back are you going to go, to find out where they came from? My dad was born in Chicago, his father in maine, his father also in maine..

As far back as it takes.

Since to be a citizen you need a COUNTRY to be a citizen of, what exactly was the country 'native americans' were a part of?

Are you ****ing kidding me?
Wow, just, wow.
America was not a country before the white folks came, before then it was just a barbarian mess.................

Sales tax, yes. Income tax, maybe, on a fake ID, that's if they are not working for cash under the table..

Yes, only illegals take cash in hand jobs to avoid the tax man............

First i have heard of that. Thanks for the link.

No problem.

True it might not, but that seems to be what you are saying. LET THEM STAY...

No, I am saying "work it out", have a non binary option of either "let them stay" or "kick them out" which seems to be where this discussion falls apart.
Actually use the "military precision" that trump was supposedly talking about when he said removing illegals was a military operation.

Additionally, someone testifying in a court trial, CAN GET a visa to let them do so, and avoid deportation for doing so... SO FEAR of 'being outed if they come forward is not as big as you make it out to be.

It is now given the expansion of ICE agents powers, and the judiciary being less than willing to extend any such visa, or even -offer- it as part of a legal agreement.

Combine that with.. HOW MANY people have been on TV/been reporters, worked for major networks etc, EVEN WITH IT being well known they were illegally here??

Yeah, popular people tend to make a stink, even unintentionally when you kick them out...........

[Gatecat]

Are you ****ing kidding me?
Wow, just, wow.
America was not a country before the white folks came, before then it was just a barbarian mess.................

He probably still sees Native Americans as animals and thinks the only good indian is a dead indian...

[garhkal]

IF possible. Some countries do not take back their own people because of various reasons,

I am sorry, but if their home country refuses to take them back, i would tell that country "FINE, NO visas will be issued to your country's people wanting to legally come to ours.. OH and any aid we send you is on hold".

The legal kids should be deported with their parents, right?
It's not what -I- am saying, it's what you are saying, I just changed the target, not the laws you are in favour of.

And what i am saying is those kids SHOULDn't be considered us citizens just cause they were born here to illegal alien parent(s).. So they should be deported along with mom/dad..

Is that a good thing?

Hell no. I've known some who even AFTER having daddy/mommy found to be innocent, STILL had their stuff kept from them for several years while the family sued to get them back...

No, I am saying "work it out", have a non binary option of either "let them stay" or "kick them out" which seems to be where this discussion falls apart.

So what is your idea for that third option? Let them go but come back in legally in a few years? let them stay while giving them a path to citizenship? Basically amnesty..

[Annoyed]

Of course we deport. We can't keep everyone. Austria is a small country and we don't have endless capacities. But we don't automaticly stamp them as criminals or 2nd-class people. They are still treated humanly and with respect, not brute force.

And yet you suggest that we not deport the people who sneak into our country!
I have never suggested that we treat them poorly. Deport them, absolutely, but do it in a professional manner.

[Gatecat]

I am sorry, but if their home country refuses to take them back, i would tell that country "FINE, NO visas will be issued to your country's people wanting to legally come to ours.. OH and any aid we send you is on hold".

This is already done. The EU and especially Austria is putting more pressure on those countries who don't take back their citizens by reducing their development aid. One reason why they refuse to take them back is that the money refugees send back to their respective countries is a mayor economic factor in those countries.

[Womble]

Of course we deport. We can't keep everyone. Austria is a small country and we don't have endless capacities. But we don't automaticly stamp them as criminals or 2nd-class people. They are still treated humanly and with respect, not brute force.

And so long as these migrants can pass through Austria into Germany, that even works.

Somewhat.

Unless you come to a place like Salzburg where every bridge begins and ends with a migrant beggar.

[Falcon Horus]

On this, we agree.

Actually, I don't agree, I was just channeling you.

Not all government is bad.

https://www.truppendienst.com/themen...z-in-kaernten/
("Truppendienst" is a magazine of Austria's Armed Forces. Probably no use for most of you since it's in German,... expect for FH maybe?)

Yes, I can read and understand German.
My attempts at speaking are... somewhat less evolved. Although, I'm going on a citytrip to Cologne this weekend. I can practice that German of mine.

Interesting read, btw. Thanks for the link.

[Gatecat]

And yet you suggest that we not deport the people who sneak into our country!

I didn't say you're not allowed to deport your immigrants. I pointed out the fact, that your law enforcement agencies, be it border patrol, police or/and ICE are prone to overuse of brute force, mistreatment and disrespect of human rights and dignity in general.

I have never suggested that we treat them poorly. Deport them, absolutely, but do it in a professional manner.

Oh, you do... really?

https://action.aclu.org/secure/hold_...ol_accountable

http://southernborder.org/border-pat...ty-since-2010/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-border-patrol

In some cases one might think border patrol uses immigrants as target practice...

And so long as these migrants can pass through Austria into Germany, that even works.

Somewhat.

Unless you come to a place like Salzburg where every bridge begins and ends with a migrant beggar.

I haven't been to Salzburg yet, I can only speak for Graz and Vienna, and even there I haven't been in the inner city parts in the last two years, so I don't exactly know how the situation is RIGHT NOW, but most of those beggars used to be Roma from Slovakia or Romania who get transported to the cities by busses only to beg.

Yes, I can read and understand German.
My attempts at speaking are... somewhat less evolved. Although, I'm going on a citytrip to Cologne this weekend. I can practice that German of mine.

Interesting read, btw. Thanks for the link.

My English pronunciation also sucks, and my French and Dutch knowledge is basicly nonexistant.

I don't understand all that military tactics stuff, but they often have interesting articles about current geo- and domestic political subjects and military history.
https://www.truppendienst.com/themen...chtlingskrise/
https://www.truppendienst.com/themen...-buergerkrieg/

Mainly from a military pov of course.

[Gatefan1976]

And what i am saying is those kids SHOULDn't be considered us citizens just cause they were born here to illegal alien parent(s).. So they should be deported along with mom/dad..

But despite what you think, they are, so your plan is to deport legally recognized citizens as declared by the 14th amendment. Your personal agreement with the law is not required.

Hell no. I've known some who even AFTER having daddy/mommy found to be innocent, STILL had their stuff kept from them for several years while the family sued to get them back...

Then the law should be changed as it is unfair. No prizes for guessing which states are fond of this law?

So what is your idea for that third option? Let them go but come back in legally in a few years? let them stay while giving them a path to citizenship? Basically amnesty..

If I had an easy answer for that, don't you think I would be selling my services for a crap load more money than I do now?
Path to citizenship is probably the best idea, most illegals only breaking of the law is -being- where they are.
Back taxes?
denial of non critical services for a period of time?
No ability to vote in elections for a period of time?
Harsher legal penalties for a period of time?
From a purely legal view, it is far better to know -who- is in your country than have no clue unless they do something wrong, isn't it?

[Annoyed]

I didn't say you're not allowed to deport your immigrants. I pointed out the fact, that your law enforcement agencies, be it border patrol, police or/and ICE are prone to overuse of brute force, mistreatment and disrespect of human rights and dignity in general.



Oh, you do... really?

https://action.aclu.org/secure/hold_...ol_accountable

http://southernborder.org/border-pat...ty-since-2010/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-border-patrol

In some cases one might think border patrol uses immigrants as target practice...

I'm not saying there are not abuses, there are and always will be over-aggressive officers in any law enforcement agency. These officers should not be officers, plain and simple.



But citing pro-immigrant, leftist sites doesn't buy you much in an argument. The one specific case you mention, that of Anastasio Hernández Rojas via an ACLU (heavily biased to the left) site isn't quite as simple as the site suggests. In fact, the site doesn't even say HOW he died.

Let's look at another equally biased site: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/feder...ernandez-rojas

The evidence developed during the investigation indicated that when Hernandez-Rojas’ handcuffs were removed at the San Ysidro Port of Entry, Hernandez-Rojas began grappling with the two U.S. Border Patrol (USBP) agents and then resisted their efforts to restrain him. Two Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents, as well as another USBP agent, joined the struggle and struck Hernandez-Rojas several times with their asp batons. The agents again secured Hernandez-Rojas in handcuffs, but he continued to struggle and kick at the agents. The agents called for backup and a transport vehicle to take Hernandez-Rojas for processing since he was no longer eligible for voluntary return due to the struggle. As agents attempted to place Hernandez-Rojas in the transport van to take him back to the station, he again physically resisted and attempted to kick the agents. A number of Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers responded to the scene, one of whom shocked Hernandez-Rojas with a taser. Hernandez-Rojas stopped resisting and the agents restrained his legs. Shortly thereafter, Hernandez-Rojas’ breathing slowed and he became unresponsive. The CBP officers administered CPR until medical personnel arrived at the scene. Hernandez-Rojas was pronounced dead two days later after being removed from life support.

Here's a hint. When arrested, don't try to start a fight with the cops.
And another site I noticed said he was high on meth at the time. Think that might have contributed to the heart attack he suffered when a non-lethal tool ( a taser) was used to subdue him?

[garhkal]

This is already done. The EU and especially Austria is putting more pressure on those countries who don't take back their citizens by reducing their development aid. One reason why they refuse to take them back is that the money refugees send back to their respective countries is a mayor economic factor in those countries.

Just like the millions of Mexicans we have here.. Sending massive amounts of dosh back home.. I am trying to remember the figure i saw a few months back, but one news site said if those 'cash sendbacks' to mexico stopped or were seriously curtailed (due to all the people getting deported, or the companies being used being taxed) Mexico could lose up to 30% of their income..

But despite what you think, they are, so your plan is to deport legally recognized citizens as declared by the 14th amendment. Your personal agreement with the law is not required.

BUT then we get into the issue of people on the left whining we "are breaking up the family, so dad/mom must be allowed to stay"..
So it winds up being an end run around our immigration laws by having those 'anchor babies'.. HENCE THE TERM.

Path to citizenship is probably the best idea, most illegals only breaking of the law is -being- where they are.

SO what of all those working illegally? Or using false/stolen/fake IDs?? Are those not laws being broken as well?

[Falcon Horus]

My English pronunciation also sucks, and my French and Dutch knowledge is basicly nonexistant.

Native Dutch (or Flemish more accurate). Fluent in English, mediocre in French and a firm basic understanding of German. I just haven't spoken it for a long time now.

I'm a document designer (at work right now) and my letters are in Dutch, French and German so I do keep up with the languages. I'm constantly surrounded by them as it were.

I don't understand all that military tactics stuff, but they often have interesting articles about current geo- and domestic political subjects and military history.
https://www.truppendienst.com/themen...chtlingskrise/
https://www.truppendienst.com/themen...-buergerkrieg/

Oh, gonna check these out when I get home.
Thanks for the links.

[Annoyed]

BUT then we get into the issue of people on the left whining we "are breaking up the family, so dad/mom must be allowed to stay"..

So it winds up being an end run around our immigration laws by having those 'anchor babies'.. HENCE THE TERM.

Yeah, that's BS. rewrite the law to end the anchor baby problem. If keeping the family together is so important, their relatives, legal or not can leave right along with the illegal. No one is forcing them to stay here.

SO what of all those working illegally? Or using false/stolen/fake IDs?? Are those not laws being broken as well?

Didn't you get the memo? It doesn't matter what laws are broken, as long as the US can continue to be the world's doormat. It's perfectly fine for other nations to have strict immigration enforcement laws, but the US should allow everyone, legal or not. I hear Mexico itself is really harsh when it catches illegals in that country.

[Who Knows]

I hear Mexico itself is really harsh when it catches illegals in that country.

Especially Americans?

[Falcon Horus]

I guess, being labelled a first world country comes with a price.

Though, I'm sure with the current buffoon in place you won't have to worry about that label for much longer. Soon, or already, you'll be in the same category as countries the likes of North-Korea, Russia, China and plenty of African countries with dictatorship and curtailed people's rights in place.

*****

Oh, I completely forgot... Annoyed, I had to think of you yesterday when I was reading about the new Trumpcare that's coming. It's looking like you'll be in the "screwed"-category (again) -- I saw, premium rises up to 8000 dollar for people in your age range.