The Political Discussion Thread

[thekillman]

Annoyed, some good news as far as free trade goes between the EU and the US. The TTIP negotiations are considered as failed after 14 rounds of talking. Well, according to the German minister for Economics anyway.

*throws a small party*

As for job market, that's not how it works! In essence you'd ask farmers to offer $25 an hour plus benefits

That wouldn't be a problem if people are willing to pay 4-5 times as much for their food. It's just that nobody wants to do that.

[Annoyed]

That wouldn't be a problem if people are willing to pay 4-5 times as much for their food. It's just that nobody wants to do that.

So you're fine with having illegal and immigrant workers subsidizing the food industry with their labor at discount rates to keep food prices low? Because that is essentially what you're saying.

[Gatefan1976]

So you're fine with having illegal and immigrant workers subsidizing the food industry with their labor at discount rates to keep food prices low? Because that is essentially what you're saying.

Did you eat today?
Did you wear clothes?

[Gatefan1976]

Sigh.................
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...oint.html?_r=0

what does it take?

[SoulReaver]

Frankly Australia's treatment of refugees and boat people is deplorable

incidentally how does it treat its own citizens?

http://www.rediff.com/sports/2000/sep/08aus.htm
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg00196.html

(are John Howard's laws still in effect?)

So you're fine with having illegal and immigrant workers subsidizing the food industry with their labor at discount rates to keep food prices low? Because that is essentially what you're saying.

So you're fine with having high food prices? Because that is essentially what you're saying

[Falcon Horus]

Sigh.................
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...oint.html?_r=0

what does it take?

That's an interesting list.

[Coco Pops]

incidentally how does it treat its own citizens?

http://www.rediff.com/sports/2000/sep/08aus.htm
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg00196.html

(are John Howard's laws still in effect?)

So you're fine with having high food prices? Because that is essentially what you're saying

John Howards laws are I think still in effect.

The items in those links are not new, they were being discussed today on the news, I listen to the radio before I head out in the morning.

Yeah I have no words for that, it's disturbing.

[garhkal]

That just shows a lack of understanding on the issue dude
There is nothing -wrong- with wanting immigration reform, there is nothing wrong with wanting to keep illegals out of the country, but building walls and carrying on like a racist pig of a person (Trump, not you) WILL SOLVE NOTHING. Reforms such as what Tood suggested earlier such as needing all documentation to get governmental assistance is -perfectly- reasonable, and it's fairly damn humane. Expedited visa's for people who have been here a long time and just want to become legal is -also- humane. Been in the US for 10 years and kept your nose clean for those 10 years? expedited visa. You can also place a limit on that visa if you want, and that's humane. Back taxes? Given the low to non-existent level of federal taxes for people in the US (note -FEDERAL, not state), why bother? If they have been living somewhere, they are paying state and sales tax already. Why sacrifice 20+% of their paycheque that they are already paying in taxes and contributing to the local economy to get 10% more, when getting that 10% more would cost you more to recover it?

Being most of those who have been here, often have used illegal/stolen/fake IDs, what about making them pay for those crimes??

I think part of the issue i always see, is that those on the left always going on about "we need to be more humane to those here", never seem to then want to do anything to STOP the further flood of incoming illegals.. Its almost like they feel there is a RIGHT for people to want to come here...

Frankly Australia's treatment of refugees and boat people is deplorable

Yes it is.

So what, they should just welcome them in with open arms??


Anyhow, onto other politics related news.
Anyone else hear about the Election board hack in Illinois/Arizona??

http://abcnews.go.com/US/fbi-warns-c...ry?id=41719997

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/F...in-9190666.php

[SoulReaver]

I think part of the issue i always see, is that those on the left always going on about "we need to be more humane to those here", never seem to then want to do anything to STOP the further flood of incoming illegals

an even greater issue is those on the right claiming "we need to be tougher on the illegals" when what they really mean is "we need to be tougher on the People" (illegals or not)

Anyhow, onto other politics related news.
Anyone else hear about the Election board hack in Illinois/Arizona??

never was a proponent of "e-voting" so this news is amusing (as long as that system doesn't find its way into EU states)

[Annoyed]

I'm not fond of computerized voting systems either, particularly of those machines are networked.

We can thank Al Gore for having to use this garbage in the first place. After he went whining to the SCOTUS in 2000 because some Dumbocrats in Florida couldn't operate a simple paper ballot, most states started moving away from the old mechanical (unhackable) machines to electronic machines.
As far as allowing voters to vote online en mass, that would be an absolute disaster. How many computers in the US are already infected with malware? Imagine if the prize could be the presidency, or a congresscritter position?

[Gatefan1976]

Being most of those who have been here, often have used illegal/stolen/fake IDs, what about making them pay for those crimes??

What do you want to do about it?
Throw them in jail and pay for that with taxpayer money?

I think part of the issue i always see, is that those on the left always going on about "we need to be more humane to those here", never seem to then want to do anything to STOP the further flood of incoming illegals.. Its almost like they feel there is a RIGHT for people to want to come here...

That's because you don't see the nuance. The left is no more a monolithic monster than the right is. There are -plenty- of things that form the core basis of the Republican party that -I- agree with, and I am sure I am not alone in that. Small government? Awesome idea, just make sure the government in it's smallness -still- works for the people. Keeping taxes to the minimum? Great.
This is the problem with being so polarised.

So what, they should just welcome them in with open arms??

No, but look into the way we treat them, it's disgusting.

[Annoyed]

What do you want to do about it?

Quote Originally Posted by garhkal
Being most of those who have been here, often have used illegal/stolen/fake IDs, what about making them pay for those crimes??

Throw them in jail and pay for that with taxpayer money?

I would have no objection to providing a free ride to their entry point. After that, they are the responsibility of their country of origin.

[aretood2]

So you're fine with having illegal and immigrant workers subsidizing the food industry with their labor at discount rates to keep food prices low? Because that is essentially what you're saying.

1st generation Americans and beyond are welcomed to work there. But look, you can't dictate wages like that. That is a socialist ploy. Wages have to be based on market forces and what the employers can afford. It's the same situation with minimum wage, it can't be too high or else it will mess with the economy in all the wrong ways.

My dad never "wanted" to work agriculture, nor did my mom desire unskilled-semi skilled factory work. But someone has to do it and they did it knowing that they could provide for themselves and their children clear into college, and that they did. With those earnings they bought themselves a small but nice home with a sizable yard and reliable transportation. It took years to build up to it, but they did it.

Would they have liked more? Anyone would. Should they have been paid more? Probably, but we all feel that way about all of our jobs. In fact, my dad got paid a bit more than on average because he proved his reliability...and that's with taking family time and vacations that such jobs don't actually have.

I'm fine with it myself. Could things improve? Sure. It really depends on where and what you do and for whom you work. I would look towards California for the abuse you seem to reference, but that's because of the "let's do nothing" attitude regarding illegal immigrants and not that much to do with legal immigrants.

[Annoyed]

1st generation Americans and beyond are welcomed to work there. But look, you can't dictate wages like that. That is a socialist ploy. Wages have to be based on market forces and what the employers can afford. It's the same situation with minimum wage, it can't be too high or else it will mess with the economy in all the wrong ways.

That's exactly what I'm counting on. Market forces. If there is a scarcity of any resource, the price of it rises. Look at the price of energy. At numerous times over the past 50+ years, as various issues have made crude oil more or less scarce, the price of it has risen and fallen. The same with many other resources. And it is the same with labor. (wages). In times of recession, there are far more workers than available jobs. So employers do not have to compete for workers, and can hold the line on wages or even force cuts.
But as of late, when business activity picks up, instead of having to offer more $ to get employees because there is more competition for workers, businesses are using imported labor and offshore production to artificially relieve the pressure for increased wages.

If the supply of workers willing to work at sub standard wages dries up, employers will face a shortage of labor, and therefore the price of it (wage rates) will rise.

[aretood2]

That's exactly what I'm counting on. Market forces. If there is a scarcity of any resource, the price of it rises. Look at the price of energy. At numerous times over the past 50+ years, as various issues have made crude oil more or less scarce, the price of it has risen and fallen. The same with many other resources. And it is the same with labor. (wages). In times of recession, there are far more workers than available jobs. So employers do not have to compete for workers, and can hold the line on wages or even force cuts.
But as of late, when business activity picks up, instead of having to offer more $ to get employees because there is more competition for workers, businesses are using imported labor and offshore production to artificially relieve the pressure for increased wages.

If the supply of workers willing to work at sub standard wages dries up, employers will face a shortage of labor, and therefore the price of it (wage rates) will rise.

Which brings us back the the issues mentioned previously. The government it too much of a bureaucratic mess to be able to react to the economy effectively. And even then it wouldn't deal with the host of new problems such a set up would bring about which include sharp increases in prices and decrease in production. Not to mention the cessation of the production of non-essential foods. Which would then cause unemployment which then would exacerbate the entire thing into a vicious cycle a la Venezuela.