The Political Discussion Thread

[Goose]

That doesn't bother me personally, I don't think 'meting out justice' should be a function of the law to begin with. If people are kept safe from him, and he could perhaps even be rehabilitated then that's the best we can hope for in my opinion.

By the way, did anyone get a look at his favourite TV shows?

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/3...re020ander.png

Exactly. The function of the prison system should be rehabilitation, not punishment.

Of course, some people will never be rehabilitated, and will end up spending a long, long, long time behind bars.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

He can also be sentenced to indefinite confinement which is basically a sort of psychiatric care for the criminally insane, and that means that his case comes up every five years for review, and then it is decided if he's fit or not to return and be integrated into society. If they keep saying that he's not, they can pretty much keep him locked up until the day he dies.

Thing is he can still perfectly easily get out. All he has to do is play along, obey the rules, act like a good little prisoner, and after a few years he'll be let put. Doesn’t mean he's actually been rehabilitated. This is not some raving lunatic, he is a cold, calculating and intelligent figure who spent years planning this attack. A few years in comfort putting on an act won’t faze him.

Varg Vikernes, a Norwegian Neo Nazi, who stabbed a man to death, conducted arson attacks on Churches and was found in possession of weapons and explosives apparently in preparation for other attacks, was let out after serving 16 years of his sentence. And he still holds his extremist views, and seems to have definitely not been rehabilitated.

That doesn't bother me personally, I don't think 'meting out justice' should be a function of the law to begin with. If people are kept safe from him, and he could perhaps even be rehabilitated then that's the best we can hope for in my opinion.

Quite how you expect to rehabilitate a man who spent years planning this, and murdered in excess of 90 people, some of those being children who begged for their life before they died, is beyond me.

But hey lets for the sake of argument say that he's sent to prison for 21 years, let out after 16 because they say he's being rehabilitated. And for the sake of this exercise, I'm the father of one of the murdered people. I have a rather less liberal attitude towards criminals, especially mass murderers. What’s to stop me taking a rusty knife, a pair of pliers and a blowtorch to him? Prison, hah the maximum I can get is 21 years, and I’m pretty much assured I’ll be out after only a few, after all I’m not a threat to society, just this one man. So I can take my own special brand of plier based justice out on this guy and in return just have to suffer a few years confined in relative comfort in return.

People when they are wronged naturally want justice, and it’s no good simply saying that “oh rehabilitation is more important.” If they are unhappy they will start enacting their own brand of justice and when you have such weak sentences, there really ain’t any deterrant to stop them.

We are not talking about a guy with no qualifications and no job prospects who fell into burglary and petty crime. Yes in his case rehabilitate him, and get him out of the system as fast as possible, because no you do not want a situation as in America where these people end up going through the prison system over and over. But this is a different case, you are dealing with a terrorist who utterly committed to his political beliefs. Trying to actually truly rehabilitate the guy is nigh on impossible, and even if by some miracle you managed it, society will not accept him back.

Exactly. The function of the prison system should be rehabilitation, not punishment.

Of course, some people will never be rehabilitated, and will end up spending a long, long, long time behind bars.

Or in Norway's case, probably not very long at all. At the end of the day though, it is their justice system, as decided by the Norwegian people. If I was a Norwegian I'd be deeply unhappy at the state of affairs, but thankfully I don’t live there. If they want to let this guy out after 20 years, it’s their decision, but that doesn’t stop me as an outside observer being befuddled by it.

[SoulReaver]

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/3...re020ander.png

"the Republic" & "Leviathan"

ain't that a surprise

[Goose]

Thing is he can still perfectly easily get out. All he has to do is play along, obey the rules, act like a good little prisoner, and after a few years he'll be let put. Doesn’t mean he's actually been rehabilitated. This is not some raving lunatic, he is a cold, calculating and intelligent figure who spent years planning this attack. A few years in comfort putting on an act won’t faze him.

I'm pretty sure that the professionals who run the prison system and the parol board are smart enough to see past the act.

Varg Vikernes, a Norwegian Neo Nazi, who stabbed a man to death, conducted arson attacks on Churches and was found in possession of weapons and explosives apparently in preparation for other attacks, was let out after serving 16 years of his sentence. And he still holds his extremist views, and seems to have definitely not been rehabilitated.

Has he killed anyone recently? Has he committed any more crimes? Holding extremist views is not a crime in Norway.

Quite how you expect to rehabilitate a man who spent years planning this, and murdered in excess of 90 people, some of those being children who begged for their life before they died, is beyond me.

It's very possible that he won't be rehabilitated. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't give it a try.

But hey lets for the sake of argument say that he's sent to prison for 21 years, let out after 16 because they say he's being rehabilitated. And for the sake of this exercise, I'm the father of one of the murdered people. I have a rather less liberal attitude towards criminals, especially mass murderers. What’s to stop me taking a rusty knife, a pair of pliers and a blowtorch to him? Prison, hah the maximum I can get is 21 years, and I’m pretty much assured I’ll be out after only a few, after all I’m not a threat to society, just this one man. So I can take my own special brand of plier based justice out on this guy and in return just have to suffer a few years confined in relative comfort in return.

People when they are wronged naturally want justice, and it’s no good simply saying that “oh rehabilitation is more important.” If they are unhappy they will start enacting their own brand of justice and when you have such weak sentences, there really ain’t any deterrant to stop them.

Carrying out justice is not for the individual, it's for the state. If you're unhappy with the system of justice in peace, there's a process to change it. It's called democracy. Vote for people who want longer sentences. The Norwegian government, a democratically elected government, has this system of justice in place, and it's not for you to decide what is right or wrong by taking it out on another person. That's exactly what the gunman/bomber in this case did; if he was unhappy about something, the proper process of dealing with it is not to bomb and shot people.

And furthermore, Norway has a very low level of crime. 2011 will obviously be a black year, as this one act accounts for almost twice the normal number of murders in a year in Norway, but nevertheless, the is no apparent need for a tougher criminal system in Norway to "deter" people from crime, because crime in Norway is relatively low anyway!

We are not talking about a guy with no qualifications and no job prospects who fell into burglary and petty crime. Yes in his case rehabilitate him, and get him out of the system as fast as possible, because no you do not want a situation as in America where these people end up going through the prison system over and over. But this is a different case, you are dealing with a terrorist who utterly committed to his political beliefs. Trying to actually truly rehabilitate the guy is nigh on impossible, and even if by some miracle you managed it, society will not accept him back.

Or in Norway's case, probably not very long at all. At the end of the day though, it is their justice system, as decided by the Norwegian people. If I was a Norwegian I'd be deeply unhappy at the state of affairs, but thankfully I don’t live there. If they want to let this guy out after 20 years, it’s their decision, but that doesn’t stop me as an outside observer being befuddled by it.

As I said above, at least we should try rehabilitating him. And the criminal justice system in Norway may be odd to you, but the general attitude towards crime in Scandinavia is to rehabilitate rather than lock away criminals for the rest of their lives.

[squirrely1]

Exactly. The function of the prison system should be rehabilitation, not punishment.

Of course, some people will never be rehabilitated, and will end up spending a long, long, long time behind bars.

Personally I think it's both. For if there is nothing "uncomfortable" about prison then we'd have these lazy bums committing crimes so they can be "in the system" and not have to work and basically be cared for and have all the creature comforts provided for them. This is a fine line in my opinion that jail should be very uncomfortable (not saying inhumane) but just uncomfortable enough that you would view it as a punishment. And then yes rehabilitation is all part of it. But to be honest when you get these long termers in there and they finally get paroled they often commit another crime so that they can go back...because they are institutionally dependent on that whole set up...because to be honest once they are freed then the hard reality hits them that they have no one providing for them anymore and they have to go get a job and be responsible and work hard and actually eek out a living like most responsible citizens. To be honest I think for the prison system to be totally effective there should be stages to your freedom...and you should be allowed to have a work parole long before you are truly released...like you are on a semi parole ....let out only to work and then return back behind bars. Then once you are trusted to be a responsible person in society making a living for yourself again...then they could let you out completely. Just my take on the situation.

[EvilSpaceAlien]

Here's a good long article about Breivik (the guy behind all of this).

[QUOTE]The man who reportedly shot dead at least 85 people at a youth camp and killed another seven with a car bomb in the Norwegian capital of Oslo, released a YouTube video calling for conservatives to 'embrace martyrdom' six hours before the attacks, it has emerged.
Anders Behring Breivik posted the video promoting a fight against Islam, which shows pictures of him wearing a wetsuit and pointing an automatic weapon, hours before he set out on the devastating killing spree.
In a text with the video he detailed his plans for the attacks, writing that he would 'dress up as a police officer', adding that it would 'be awesome as people will be astonished'./QUOTE]
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...=feeds-newsxml

Click the link to read the rest.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I'm pretty sure that the professionals who run the prison system and the parol board are smart enough to see past the act.

Like the "professionals" who responded to these attacks? For example The Norwegian Counter Terrorism Unit that was delayed because they had to wait for a ferry to cross over to the Island, rather than having a Rapid Reaction Force deployed in a Helicopter like every other Counter Terrorism Unit uses in the World. That don't fill me with confidence about Norwegian Law enforcement to start with.

And alright to be fair the Norwegian Prison Service is a different group. But the fact that a highly intelligent sociopathic terrorist will even be considered for parole strikes me as being very naive.

Has he killed anyone recently? Has he committed any more crimes? Holding extremist views is not a crime in Norway.

He's only been out 5 minutes. But serving only 16 years for brutally stabbing a man to death, and being unrepentant about that doesn't strike me as being very rehabilitated. Or that while serving his prison sentence, he was allowed leave from prison, and then in 2003 proceeded to try and escape on one of these "leave" periods, carjacking a family and having to be chased down, and was to found in a stolen car, which, according to the media, contained an unloaded automatic rifle, a handgun and numerous large knives. Only 13 months were added to his sentence.

It's very possible that he won't be rehabilitated. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't give it a try.

Why, because of his human rights? He threw those away that away when he took away the rights of 93 people. And even if you can rehabilitate him, society won't have him back.

Carrying out justice is not for the individual, it's for the state. If you're unhappy with the system of justice in peace, there's a process to change it. It's called democracy. Vote for people who want longer sentences. The Norwegian government, a democratically elected government, has this system of justice in place, and it's not for you to decide what is right or wrong by taking it out on another person. That's exactly what the gunman/bomber in this case did; if he was unhappy about something, the proper process of dealing with it is not to bomb and shot people.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch," to use a famous phrase. It is the tyranny of the majority. If the majority of people are against my political views, then no amount of democracy will ever make any headway for me. If I'm one of the parents of the murdered children, and the majority of people want the 21 year prison service kept, then the only way for me to see justice done in my eyes is to take the law into my own hands...

And furthermore, Norway has a very low level of crime. 2011 will obviously be a black year, as this one act accounts for almost twice the normal number of murders in a year in Norway, but nevertheless, the is no apparent need for a tougher criminal system in Norway to "deter" people from crime, because crime in Norway is relatively low anyway!

Crime is low in Norway because it is a small, economically well off country, where the majority of the population live in small towns or rural settlements. And the fact is that economic and demographic factors will always have the most effect on crime levels, not prisons or harsh sentences. The best way to reduce most crime is not to introduce tougher sentencing, but to improve the economy. However that is for normal petty crime, burglary, drug dealing, general theft, assault and so forth. We are talking about mass murder and Terrorism here, and the fact is that Norway has had an attack that has dwarfed many of the recent ones throughout the world, and statistically, when the small population of Norway is taken into account, that makes it worse. Terrorists are fighting for a political goal, and a better economy won't simply get rid of them. They are always going to be a fact of life, especially while democracy exists. And while Democracy might be a better system of government than most others, it is still deeply flawed system, and one of that problems is the tyranny of the majority, as I mentioned earlier. And as long as you have this tyranny of the majority, you have people who feel the only way to achieve political change is outside the democratic system, often by violence.

If there are lenient sentences imposed for those that use terrorism and political violence, then all you're going to get is the same old faces passing though the prison system, costing money in legal fees and law enforcement operation to recapture them. Bog standard criminals can and should be rehabilitated to prevent them going through this cycle, but for a terroist, someone who hates the very foundations of the current Norwegian political and legal system, you arn't going to get anywhere.

As I said above, at least we should try rehabilitating him. And the criminal justice system in Norway may be odd to you, but the general attitude towards crime in Scandinavia is to rehabilitate rather than lock away criminals for the rest of their lives.

Well as I said in an earlier post, it's their decision, their legal system and completely their choice in which I have no input. It doesn't stop me from disagreeing with their legal system, or being glad that I live in a country with a system that recognises some people need to be locked away in a deep dark hole for the rest of their lives.

[lordofseas]

[QUOTE=EvilSpaceAlien;12792063]Here's a good long article about Breivik (the guy behind all of this).

The man who reportedly shot dead at least 85 people at a youth camp and killed another seven with a car bomb in the Norwegian capital of Oslo, released a YouTube video calling for conservatives to 'embrace martyrdom' six hours before the attacks, it has emerged.
Anders Behring Breivik posted the video promoting a fight against Islam, which shows pictures of him wearing a wetsuit and pointing an automatic weapon, hours before he set out on the devastating killing spree.
In a text with the video he detailed his plans for the attacks, writing that he would 'dress up as a police officer', adding that it would 'be awesome as people will be astonished'./QUOTE]
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...=feeds-newsxml

Click the link to read the rest.

Don't you just love anti-Islamic sentiment.

[SoulReaver]

yeah well interestingly enough he didn't take on any muslims (though he could have esp. in Oslo)

we do have, however, a bloke who took on marxists. a christian, at that

this sure will please some of the US "Bible-Belt" folks here

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

Like the "professionals" who responded to these attacks? For example The Norwegian Counter Terrorism Unit that was delayed because they had to wait for a ferry to cross over to the Island, rather than having a Rapid Reaction Force deployed in a Helicopter like every other Counter Terrorism Unit uses in the World. That don't fill me with confidence about Norwegian Law enforcement to start with.

And alright to be fair the Norwegian Prison Service is a different group. But the fact that a highly intelligent sociopathic terrorist will even be considered for parole strikes me as being very naive.



He's only been out 5 minutes. But serving only 16 years for brutally stabbing a man to death, and being unrepentant about that doesn't strike me as being very rehabilitated. Or that while serving his prison sentence, he was allowed leave from prison, and then in 2003 proceeded to try and escape on one of these "leave" periods, carjacking a family and having to be chased down, and was to found in a stolen car, which, according to the media, contained an unloaded automatic rifle, a handgun and numerous large knives. Only 13 months were added to his sentence.


Why, because of his human rights? He threw those away that away when he took away the rights of 93 people. And even if you can rehabilitate him, society won't have him back.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch," to use a famous phrase. It is the tyranny of the majority. If the majority of people are against my political views, then no amount of democracy will ever make any headway for me. If I'm one of the parents of the murdered children, and the majority of people want the 21 year prison service kept, then the only way for me to see justice done in my eyes is to take the law into my own hands...

Crime is low in Norway because it is a small, economically well off country, where the majority of the population live in small towns or rural settlements. And the fact is that economic and demographic factors will always have the most effect on crime levels, not prisons or harsh sentences. The best way to reduce most crime is not to introduce tougher sentencing, but to improve the economy. However that is for normal petty crime, burglary, drug dealing, general theft, assault and so forth. We are talking about mass murder and Terrorism here, and the fact is that Norway has had an attack that has dwarfed many of the recent ones throughout the world, and statistically, when the small population of Norway is taken into account, that makes it worse. Terrorists are fighting for a political goal, and a better economy won't simply get rid of them. They are always going to be a fact of life, especially while democracy exists. And while Democracy might be a better system of government than most others, it is still deeply flawed system, and one of that problems is the tyranny of the majority, as I mentioned earlier. And as long as you have this tyranny of the majority, you have people who feel the only way to achieve political change is outside the democratic system, often by violence.

If there are lenient sentences imposed for those that use terrorism and political violence, then all you're going to get is the same old faces passing though the prison system, costing money in legal fees and law enforcement operation to recapture them. Bog standard criminals can and should be rehabilitated to prevent them going through this cycle, but for a terroist, someone who hates the very foundations of the current Norwegian political and legal system, you arn't going to get anywhere.


Well as I said in an earlier post, it's their decision, their legal system and completely their choice in which I have no input. It doesn't stop me from disagreeing with their legal system, or being glad that I live in a country with a system that recognises some people need to be locked away in a deep dark hole for the rest of their lives.

I really don't know whether I agree or disagree with this post lol.

I whole heartly agree with the bolded part though. But couldn't you argue the tyranny of the majority is fixed with a strong constitutional framework of inalienable rights.

[SoulReaver]

I wouldn't mind tyranny of the minority - as long as I were part of the minority :|

[Goose]

Like the "professionals" who responded to these attacks? For example The Norwegian Counter Terrorism Unit that was delayed because they had to wait for a ferry to cross over to the Island, rather than having a Rapid Reaction Force deployed in a Helicopter like every other Counter Terrorism Unit uses in the World. That don't fill me with confidence about Norwegian Law enforcement to start with.

And alright to be fair the Norwegian Prison Service is a different group. But the fact that a highly intelligent sociopathic terrorist will even be considered for parole strikes me as being very naive.

Yes, that is obviously something that needs to be examined closely, but the SWAT team isn't responsible for deciding how long he stays in prison or not; that's up to a parole board and the medical professionals who are competent to decide his mental health.

He's only been out 5 minutes. But serving only 16 years for brutally stabbing a man to death, and being unrepentant about that doesn't strike me as being very rehabilitated. Or that while serving his prison sentence, he was allowed leave from prison, and then in 2003 proceeded to try and escape on one of these "leave" periods, carjacking a family and having to be chased down, and was to found in a stolen car, which, according to the media, contained an unloaded automatic rifle, a handgun and numerous large knives. Only 13 months were added to his sentence.

Actually, he was released in May 2009, but don't let that spoil a good argument...

Why, because of his human rights? He threw those away that away when he took away the rights of 93 people. And even if you can rehabilitate him, society won't have him back.

Human rights are inalienable. You can't just strip certain people of them just because they broke the law.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch," to use a famous phrase. It is the tyranny of the majority. If the majority of people are against my political views, then no amount of democracy will ever make any headway for me. If I'm one of the parents of the murdered children, and the majority of people want the 21 year prison service kept, then the only way for me to see justice done in my eyes is to take the law into my own hands...

Then obviously, democracy is not a suitable system of government for you.

Crime is low in Norway because it is a small, economically well off country, where the majority of the population live in small towns or rural settlements. And the fact is that economic and demographic factors will always have the most effect on crime levels, not prisons or harsh sentences. The best way to reduce most crime is not to introduce tougher sentencing, but to improve the economy. However that is for normal petty crime, burglary, drug dealing, general theft, assault and so forth. We are talking about mass murder and Terrorism here, and the fact is that Norway has had an attack that has dwarfed many of the recent ones throughout the world, and statistically, when the small population of Norway is taken into account, that makes it worse. Terrorists are fighting for a political goal, and a better economy won't simply get rid of them. They are always going to be a fact of life, especially while democracy exists. And while Democracy might be a better system of government than most others, it is still deeply flawed system, and one of that problems is the tyranny of the majority, as I mentioned earlier. And as long as you have this tyranny of the majority, you have people who feel the only way to achieve political change is outside the democratic system, often by violence.

What exactly is your point here? Are you calling Norway a tyrannic system that encourages people to shot close to a hundred innocent people? I'm not sure what you're getting at, to be honest.

If there are lenient sentences imposed for those that use terrorism and political violence, then all you're going to get is the same old faces passing though the prison system, costing money in legal fees and law enforcement operation to recapture them. Bog standard criminals can and should be rehabilitated to prevent them going through this cycle, but for a terroist, someone who hates the very foundations of the current Norwegian political and legal system, you arn't going to get anywhere.

Do you honestly think that the prospect of life in prison would have changed the determination of a clearly mentally disturbed person? I highly doubt it.

[Spimman]

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the US Government can not pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government's reckless fiscal policies. Increasing America's debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that, "the buck stops here.' Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.”

Guess Who Said It?

Spoiler:

-- Senator Barack Obama, March 2006

[SoulReaver]

war costs

[Galileo_Galilee]

War is good for business.