The Political Discussion Thread

[Pharaoh Hamenthotep]

But that's the exact attitude you want us to take as far as illegals go!

Lies!! I said no such thing! Just that they're not as evil as you like to make out!

And you don't have to accept an open border with Mexico in order to trade with them. Mexico isn't dictating trading terms to the US.

[Arica15]

Spain's already objecting to negotiations with Scotland about remaining in the EU.

No one on the pro independence side in Scotland is upset by that Falcon, in fact, if anything, whether he means to be or not he is being helpful.

The situation is complicated but basically the EU referendum has been a deal breaker for A LOT of the people who voted for to stay in the UK last time and they are willing to think again about independence. That includes much of the mainstream media as well as possibly the third and fourth political parties in Scotland. These people would probably want to stay in both unions so a fudge would only create a huge headache for everyone.

Nicola Sturgeon doesn't want to stay in the UK, she would rather take Scotland into the EU - or even the same arrangement as Norway - as an independent country, but she has to be able to present this as the ONLY option to the wavering, and that means she has to pursue this first. (It would also help us a lot if BoJo could be the next Prime Minister of the UK for obvious reasons but we can't ask for everything).

It's a calculated risk, but what other choice do we have? besides, Yes wasn't quite ready for another campaign so soon, we need a little time to prepare, the First Minister's actions, along with the chaos at Westminster gives us that.

[Annoyed]

Lies!! I said no such thing! Just that they're not as evil as you like to make out!

And you don't have to accept an open border with Mexico in order to trade with them. Mexico isn't dictating trading terms to the US.

See below:

Being in the EU means we have to accept all people travelling from the EU, no ifs or buts. If they want to move here we have to let them in, or lose all trading rights with the EU. I just want to know why that is. Why does trade mean people as well as goods?

You are clearly saying that you favor Brexit because you don't want to have to let anyone that knocks on the door into your country.
That's the exact same thing as the US, I don't want to accept all comers. We have a process for immigration, follow it, or stay out, just as you want your country to be able to control who comes in there.

What's good for your country is also good for the US.
I wouldn't be objecting so much to my attitudes towards illegal immigration into the US if I were you, because doing so would clearly mean that you are a hypocrite, at least in this area.

[Pharaoh Hamenthotep]

See below:

You are clearly saying that you favor Brexit because you don't want to have to let anyone that knocks on the door into your country.
That's the exact same thing as the US, I don't want to accept all comers. We have a process for immigration, follow it, or stay out, just as you want your country to be able to control who comes in there.

What's good for your country is also good for the US.
I wouldn't be objecting so much to my attitudes towards illegal immigration into the US if I were you, because doing so would clearly mean that you are a hypocrite, at least in this area.

Lies! I'm just asking the question 'why do trade and immigration have to be linked together?'

[Ian-S]

Because the EU said so.

[garhkal]

I thinking people are frightened of the unknown.

Regarding the xenophobic attacks, there hasn't been many and my wife said the worst area was Cambridge, my bets is there at least, its some bored toffy students rilling up trouble for ****s and giggles.

The rest of the Country, well, there always has been xenophobic attacks, they are just being reported now, my neighbour got their car spray painted "go home paki" when they moved in, but I didn't see that as headlines on the Six o'clock news, these events are suiting a narrative at present, hence the fuss over it.

Its wrong yes, but it didn't suddenly start last Friday.

I've also seen such attacks, but i think its just getting more headlines now..

We should not be in it at all.
Imagine if we won this year, -Eurovision- would have been hosted by us next year. It's nice, and it's inclusive to have us, but it makes no sense.

The UK has not won the Eurovision since 1997, prior to that, they last won in 1981 then 1961. Heck Ireland has had the most wins at 7 of any country..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ontest_winners

Why are they linked? Trade and mass immigration. If I buy a German car I have to take the people who built it too? They won't all fit in my freezer! And there's no more space under the patio..

Agreed. How is one linked to the other? It makes no sense.

[dipsofjazz]

No one on the pro independence side in Scotland is upset by that Falcon, in fact, if anything, whether he means to be or not he is being helpful.

The situation is complicated but basically the EU referendum has been a deal breaker for A LOT of the people who voted for to stay in the UK last time and they are willing to think again about independence. That includes much of the mainstream media as well as possibly the third and fourth political parties in Scotland. These people would probably want to stay in both unions so a fudge would only create a huge headache for everyone.

Nicola Sturgeon doesn't want to stay in the UK, she would rather take Scotland into the EU - or even the same arrangement as Norway - as an independent country, but she has to be able to present this as the ONLY option to the wavering, and that means she has to pursue this first. (It would also help us a lot if BoJo could be the next Prime Minister of the UK for obvious reasons but we can't ask for everything).

It's a calculated risk, but what other choice do we have? besides, Yes wasn't quite ready for another campaign so soon, we need a little time to prepare, the First Minister's actions, along with the chaos at Westminster gives us that.

I would also add that the First Minister is talking to the European Parliament because the Tories and Labour in Westminster are in a mess, so somebody has to be looking out for the people of Scotland. The Tories wont, and Labour are all but wiped out in Scotland.

[Womble]

Indeed.

However, once could argue they are part of the Commonwealth so related to England.
But still, it's a stretch.

Azerbaijan, Armenia and Georgia aren't part of the Commonwealth or of geographical Europe. Yet they are in Eurovision.

The most interesting thing about the whole Brexit mess is the class divide - it appears that the working class was mainly voting "leave while the wealthy, university-educated upper class was squarely in the "remain" camp. There are all kinds of conclusions to be drawn from this.

[Annoyed]

Lies! I'm just asking the question 'why do trade and immigration have to be linked together?'

That, I have no idea. But that's not what I'm pointing out. I'm saying that your objection to the EU is clearly that you don't want uncontrolled immigration into your nation. And that's a perfectly reasonable attitude to have. I agree with it. And it is my attitude for my own nation as well, we can't have uncontrolled immigration.

But you have always given me grief about my anti-illegal immigration stances when it comes to illegal immigration into the U.S., as well as my stance that a nation (the US) should set its immigration levels to benefit our own nation.

But you have the exact same attitudes when it comes to immigration into your country; your country must be able to control it.

[Linda06]

I've gathered over the past few days that the land mass that is commonly thought of as England contains 4 individual nation-states that pretty much don't seem to like each other all that much.
Why doesn't everyone just split off & go their merry way? Act as 4 separate, discrete nations.

Scotland have ben trying to gain independence. They had a vote 2 years ago but project fear worked back then. Now there's a new push for independence after we're being porcibly removed from the EU. Plus the UK from 2 years ago doesn't exist now.It's not what the no voters voted for. Part of their argument then was if Scotland became independent they wouldn't be part of the EU. Well now we're being forced out against our will. There's quite a few no voters changing their minds realising they were duped 2 years ago

Well northern island wanted to go with scotland, while southern ireland and wales went with England.. From what i remembered of the map of the votes..

Southern Ireland (Republic of Ireland isn't part of the UK. They are an independent country and didn't have a vote)

OK a little thought experiment.

If for 24 hours politicans in all the major Western nations suddenly were compelled to tell the truth and nothing but the truth in all matters what would happen?

That would be the day hell freezes over

Spain's already objecting to negotiations with Scotland about remaining in the EU.

A big part of that is because of Catalonia.

I would also add that the First Minister is talking to the European Parliament because the Tories and Labour in Westminster are in a mess, so somebody has to be looking out for the people of Scotland. The Tories wont, and Labour are all but wiped out in Scotland.

The only Labour MP in Scotland resigned the other day The Tories and Labour are crumbling. The government are a laughing stock of the world

[aretood2]

That, I have no idea. But that's not what I'm pointing out. I'm saying that your objection to the EU is clearly that you don't want uncontrolled immigration into your nation. And that's a perfectly reasonable attitude to have. I agree with it. And it is my attitude for my own nation as well, we can't have uncontrolled immigration.

But you have always given me grief about my anti-illegal immigration stances when it comes to illegal immigration into the U.S., as well as my stance that a nation (the US) should set its immigration levels to benefit our own nation.

But you have the exact same attitudes when it comes to immigration into your country; your country must be able to control it.

I'm making a wild guess here and betting that your rhetoric is what sets her off. And not to mention your disagreements in other areas could potentially predispose her to simply want to disagree with you.

Speaking of your exact views versus PH's...well...have you considered that while in spirit and in broadest sense you both agree but when it comes to the details you disagree? You have an "all or nothing" mentality completely unwilling to compromise. You've invented a felony where there is only a misdemeanor and locked yourself into only one option which happens to be a response to a felony that simply doesn't exist. You can not make up a law anymore than Obama can.

Personally, that's what I have a problem with your views. No one is saying that the US should just open its doors to just anyone...well...ideologically pure Libertarians are saying that but they're crazy. We can certainly gain from their input but I wouldn't take a pure libertarian policy because it's insane. I and many others are willing to meet people like you somewhere in the center. You only want the far far populist right. I'm going to assume that PH is left of your position, but right of the remain position. It's not all black and white you know.

[garhkal]

Azerbaijan, Armenia and Georgia aren't part of the Commonwealth or of geographical Europe. Yet they are in Eurovision.

The most interesting thing about the whole Brexit mess is the class divide - it appears that the working class was mainly voting "leave while the wealthy, university-educated upper class was squarely in the "remain" camp. There are all kinds of conclusions to be drawn from this.

How's about the elite wanted to keep their gravy train rolling while the working class are tired of getting dicked over..

Southern Ireland (Republic of Ireland isn't part of the UK. They are an independent country and didn't have a vote)

Yea, i just relooked at the map, and they were not included (just greened out).. SO 2 stay, 2 go (NI and Scotland for stay, England and Wales for stay..)

That would be the day hell freezes over

That it may be. BUT we all want that day to occur where for one politicians could NOT lie to us..
Heck i would settle for their noses grow 1 inch each lie they say, like Pinocchio..

[Coco Pops]

Australia is negotiating a free trade deal with the EU. Will they have to accept free movement of people too?

Probably not....... Our governments of both left and right fear immigration

[SGalisa]

I'm just asking the question 'why do trade and immigration have to be linked together?'

They don't. However, some politicians and progressives on the NWO seem to think we all have to take both in order to be joined together. Never heard before these past few months that immigration had to be directly connected with buying and selling of goods. It used to be that new immigrants (legal or illegal) took the jobs that no one else already living in certain areas wanted. Now, apparently, the longer termed residents are upset because there is an overcrowding on the job market snuffing out experienced workers for the newer incomers who are (or were) willing to take the lesser desired jobs for less pay.

But that's all changed now that everyone (and almost everywhere) wants higher pay or equal status, regardless of whether or not the employers can afford to dish out the extra money (or higher paychecks) to make everyone happy, and regardless of how qualified the person is to do certain, specified jobs.

[Falcon Horus]

Australia is negotiating a free trade deal with the EU. Will they have to accept free movement of people too?

Maybe....

However, it's not a trade deal such as in existence between the EU-members.
Currently they have this:

The EU and Australia are like-minded partners who share many common concerns in today's international trade environment, such as initiative to further liberalise trade in green goods, trade in services, and others.

The EU and Australia conduct their trade and economic relations under the EU-Australia Partnership Framework of October 2008. This aims, apart from cooperation on the multilateral trade system and trade in services and investment issues, to facilitate trade in industrial products between the EU and Australia by reducing technical barriers, including conformity assessment procedures.

And they are indeed going to negotiate this: EU-Australie Free Trade Deal

We believe that a FTA will support sustainable growth and investment, open up new commercial opportunities and promote innovation and employment in Australia and the EU.

So, it's quite possible EU-members can go and work in Australia and vice-versa. Much like how it is between EU members -- that's what the free movement of people stands for in part. Immigration, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter. It's easy moving around within the EU without much trouble, going outside of it, the matter becomes a little more paperworky.

...and because the people coming in to the Country are willing to do the work for half the price (and in some casses even less than the law says they are entitled to), their arrival is putting lots of British people out of work, hence the vote.

Yeah, and sometimes the trouble is that the locals don't want to do the work because it doesn't pay enough, and an immigrant wants to work.

Not saying, every unemployed person is that way but there's a trend -- in just about every country.

On the contuary it'll be the working class stiffs than benefit in the long run, those working class stiffs are presently unemployed, after the dust settles they may actually get a job and be lucky enough to consider buying a home.

Yeah, okay... you keep believing that.

Lies! I'm just asking the question 'why do trade and immigration have to be linked together?'

Immigration, not a clue, but here's what free movement means in the EU.

Freedom of movement allows citizens of the European Union (EU) to move to, live in, and in certain circumstances access the welfare system of the EU country to which they have moved. Freedom of movement is one of the founding principles of the EU. It has been in operation since the creation of the European Economic Community and is primarily designed to support the economies of EU countries by providing a mobile work force.

It's one of the 4 freedoms of the EU.

UK 'must agree' to free movement to access EU market
EU leaders say the UK will have to make concessions on free movement if it's to access to the bloc's single market.

Five models for post-Brexit UK trade
Although France warns the UK the Swiss-deal will not be automatically on the table.

General note on EU Trade Agreements.

The UK has not won the Eurovision since 1997, prior to that, they last won in 1981 then 1961. Heck Ireland has had the most wins at 7 of any country..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ontest_winners

It's super expensive to organize. They don't want to organize anymore.

Agreed. How is one linked to the other? It makes no sense.

See above.

Azerbaijan, Armenia and Georgia aren't part of the Commonwealth or of geographical Europe. Yet they are in Eurovision.

It makes no sense, but they generally bring the crazy acts so they can stay.

A big part of that is because of Catalonia.

Can't give them any ideas.

Heck i would settle for their noses grow 1 inch each lie they say, like Pinocchio..

They can use their nose to dry their laundry by the time breakfast is over.