Sam and Jack Shipper Lounge

[Seahen]

and as for world starvation.....we could still produce ethanol (with a contaminant introduced that would make it unfit for human consumption so that we won't be tempted to fuel ourselves up as well as the car) and still have agricultural infrastructure enough to feed ourselves if we really put our minds to it....and since when is it our RESPONSIBILITY to feed the entire WORLD....what we should be doing is telling those other gov'ts to put their money where their mouth is and step up their agriculture....and I know the reason our cars can't run on pure ethanol either.......my friend who's going for a doctorate in environmental and analytical chemistry explained it to me....octane (which is derived from the oil) has 8 carbons and we utilize the energy from 8 broken carbon bonds....where as ethanol has only 2 carbons and so less bonds to break and therefore less energy....however I think it should be possible to built a more energy efficient car that can run on things like ethanol or propane or butane........and there's solar powered cars....and hydrogen cells would be viable once we have clean and efficient ways of producing the hydrogen for those cells....only clean way right now is electrolyzing water to split it into it's component hydrogen and oxygen molecules.....other way involves carbon...so we'd be using dirty energy to make clean energy which kinda defeats the purpose.....oh if only we had the ability to create artificial quantum singularities like the Romulans.....

I was looking at alternative fuel consumption from a world standpoint which is why I mentioned world starvation. We could probably step it up here in the states and obviously not starve here. But other countries and continents would not have that luxiury. The US is not the only oil consumer after all. We're extremely lucky here in the states in that we have a very small population density and a very resource rich country. We can make plenty of food for ourselves. Other countries are not so lucky. Too many people, not enough land or water to sustain that. That's why it's important that we export our surplus food. Imagine you are a small country with one major river. The country next to you which happens to have the source of that river decides to dam it up for electricy. Now suddenly, they have control of all your irrigation. Now imagine you both hate each other already and you can see where the problems lie.

Alternative fuels are a way to extend the oil supply but the current alternative fuels available or soon available will never replace oil. And solar panel cars? Surely you jest.

[Seahen]

Oh I know our esteemed former vice prez Al Gore [mod snip]...and you do have a point.....although another point is that the combustion of oil does have rather toxic side effects....I for one don't relish the concept of breathing carbon......so I still think cleaner alternatives would still be in order as far as cars are concerned (just don't make it an executive order to force car companies to sell only cars that run alternative fuel).....but still keep oil around to make materials like plastic and stuff

You breath carbon every day.

[mad_gater]

environment...what to say about it....

If I have to compare it with our country...and the stuff I get about it on school I'm like "FCOL, after 20 essays and 10 papers about it I *know* we need to do something about it, but how more I hear about it, how LESS I care about it"
Come on...people...I do care about the environment...but enough is enough...there's only so much we can do...
We want our economics to be good and all? Right? Then oil and etc is needed. Yes we can make other stuff, wind, water, sun...etc..but still it isn't as good as oil. plus half of the stuff that makes you produce the wind/water/sun stuff is made with products that oil/etc helped to produce...

Just saying...

Not that I hate the environment and all...but really you have to see it good...what I'm learning now with geography about the environment is the first time I look at it in a other way and starting to care...plus my teacher showed us that ...Gore's (don't know his first name anymore) movie isn't that...correct...only showing us the points that help him...not the total!!!

The effect of the environment has always been here, it's always warming up and cooling down at the earth...that is why there were ice-ages now we only make it go a little bit faster...but it will happen...sooner or later...

Plus I don't understand why they gave that person the peace award/price(don't know how to translate it correct) because he made a movie about the environment...that doesn't make any sense to me...

Just saying my opinion

and I don't know why they gave that guy.....who seems to spend an inordinate amount of time damaging his gray matter every time he sits down....the Nobel Peace Prize

[mad_gater]

I was looking at alternative fuel consumption from a world standpoint which is why I mentioned world starvation. We could probably step it up here in the states and obviously not starve here. But other countries and continents would not have that luxiury. The US is not the only oil consumer after all. We're extremely lucky here in the states in that we have a very small population density and a very resource rich country. We can make plenty of food for ourselves. Other countries are not so lucky. Too many people, not enough land or water to sustain that. That's why it's important that we export our surplus food. Imagine you are a small country with one major river. The country next to you which happens to have the source of that river decides to dam it up for electricy. Now suddenly, they have control of all your irrigation. Now imagine you both hate each other already and you can see where the problems lie.

Alternative fuels are a way to extend the oil supply but the current alternative fuels available or soon available will never replace oil. And solar panel cars? Surely you jest.

Exactly.....call me isolationist if you must....but I think those other countries would step up agriculture pretty quick if they didn't have our shipments to rely on....relying on us to exprt surplus food just leads to complacency on their end...as long as we keep exporting food to them they'lll never have the motivation necessary to take a good look at how agriculture could be improved.....to use a metaphor....all we're doing is giving them fish....not teaching them to fish.....i.e. we should be teaching them how to improve agriculture...not just exporting our surplus

needless to say it ticks me off when the elites say we should join this big hunky-dory global economy....which i think is nothing more than a euphamism for worldwide communism if ya ask me....just MHO

[Seahen]

Exactly.....call me isolationist if you must....but I think those other countries would step up agriculture pretty quick if they didn't have our shipments to rely on....relying on us to exprt surplus food just leads to complacency on their end...as long as we keep exporting food to them they'lll never have the motivation necessary to take a good look at how agriculture could be improved.....to use a metaphor....all we're doing is giving them fish....not teaching them to fish.....i.e. we should be teaching them how to improve agriculture...not just exporting our surplus

needless to say it ticks me off when the elites say we should join this big hunky-dory global economy....which i think is nothing more than a euphamism for worldwide communism if ya ask me....just MHO

The US will never be isolationist again. The world is too connected for that to ever happen.

And your right, some countries are too dependant on the US and could manage their resources better, but for whatever reason don't. But what about Japan? I don't have numbers in front of me, but I'm pretty sure they manage their resources well but they have such a large population, they can't support themselves. So we need to export food to them. They export us back cars or electronics or whatever. you want us to stop exporting food to them?

This is such a large complex system, there is no easy answer such as alterntive fuels or manage your resources better. That's what drives me nuts is everyone looks for a headline versus looking for a solution. Headlines can't be complex.

[mad_gater]

The US will never be isolationist again. The world is too connected for that to ever happen.

And your right, some countries are too dependant on the US and could manage their resources better, but for whatever reason don't. But what about Japan? I don't have numbers in front of me, but I'm pretty sure they manage their resources well but they have such a large population, they can't support themselves. So we need to export food to them. They export us back cars or electronics or whatever. you want us to stop exporting food to them?

This is such a large complex system, there is no easy answer such as alterntive fuels or manage your resources better. That's what drives me nuts is everyone looks for a headline versus looking for a solution. Headlines can't be complex.

well I disagree with that......basically my POV is that anyone that can be self-sufficient will be self-sufficient if one just puts their minds to it....someone emailed me a speech that Bush should make which is harsh but I think sums everything up nicely (see attachment).

we could make our own cars, electronics, or whatever if we put our minds to it....and yes Japan manages its resources well....as far as that kind of stuff goes but it's quite obvious that they don't manage their agricultural resources well....mainly cuz they do put too much focus on electronics.....Japan needs to balance it's resources....give equal weight to both agriculture and electronics production.....if that happened I'm not gonna say we should stop exports altogether but we wouldn't have to export as much.....and neither would Japan have to export as many cars to us.....and we would have more food for OUR needy.....and Japan would have more for ITS needy....so basically what every country should be doing is balancing its production focus...endeavor to strike a balance between for example agriculture and electronics....that's all....again JMHO

[Seahen]

well I disagree with that......basically my POV is that anyone that can be self-sufficient will be self-sufficient if one just puts their minds to it....someone emailed me a speech that Bush should make which is harsh but I think sums everything up nicely (see attachment).

we could make our own cars, electronics, or whatever if we put our minds to it....and yes Japan manages its resources well....as far as that kind of stuff goes but it's quite obvious that they don't manage their agricultural resources well....mainly cuz they do put too much focus on electronics.....Japan needs to balance it's resources....give equal weight to both agriculture and electronics production.....if that happened I'm not gonna say we should stop exports altogether but we wouldn't have to export as much.....and neither would Japan have to export as many cars to us.....and we would have more food for OUR needy.....and Japan would have more for ITS needy....so basically what every country should be doing is balancing its production focus...endeavor to strike a balance between for example agriculture and electronics....that's all....again JMHO

Okay, Japan is just about the same size as Montana. Japan has 127 MILLION people in it. Montana has just under a million. That's half the population of the United States in a country the size of one state! Do I need to keep going? The more people you have in your country, the more farmland you need to support them, regardless of how good your agriculture is.

Now go to say Africa, where not only do you have to contend with corrupt governments/warlords, the farm land you do have is next to worthless and there's no water to grow anything anyway.

Personally, I say New York should be come Isolationist.

If we become Isolationist, where are you gonna get your TimTams? And say goodbye to shows made in Canada. And actors from Canada... Hope you don't like Columbian coffee...

[starlover]

I was looking at alternative fuel consumption from a world standpoint which is why I mentioned world starvation. We could probably step it up here in the states and obviously not starve here. But other countries and continents would not have that luxiury. The US is not the only oil consumer after all. We're extremely lucky here in the states in that we have a very small population density and a very resource rich country. We can make plenty of food for ourselves. Other countries are not so lucky. Too many people, not enough land or water to sustain that. That's why it's important that we export our surplus food. Imagine you are a small country with one major river. The country next to you which happens to have the source of that river decides to dam it up for electricy. Now suddenly, they have control of all your irrigation. Now imagine you both hate each other already and you can see where the problems lie.

Alternative fuels are a way to extend the oil supply but the current alternative fuels available or soon available will never replace oil. And solar panel cars? Surely you jest.

*cough*

You know...I think I live in that one country... With one river...but I've gotta say...we are a economic rich country...so I don't complain...and yes we need stuff from outside...but we have managed to do that for ages...why not now?

*Jann out*

[NZNeep]

Exactly. As for New Zealand... we could probably be self-sufficient but why would we want to be? We are a big mash up of cultures so why would we want to cut ourselves off?

[mad_gater]

Dear mad_gater,

You know I love you, but please never again use the phrases:







and expect me to take you seriously.

Much love,

NZNeep.




Word!

I do have to apologize for taring entire races with the same brush....I said things in the heat of anger I shouldn't have. But when you're paying money for oil that can be better spent on other things and buying things that are poisoned with cheap fillers I can't help but be angry....I fell into that trap and I am very sorry.....there are nice Arabs and Asians out there.....I've even spoken with some......the time I should be applying those kinds of labels are to the Islamo-fascists who all they wanna do is crush us under the heel of Islam and to the corrupted fatcats currently ruling China with an iron fist.....those people make me see nothing but red and when I'm in that state I say stupid things....please ignore me from here on out.......

[mad_gater]

Exactly. As for New Zealand... we could probably be self-sufficient but why would we want to be? We are a big mash up of cultures so why would we want to cut ourselves off?

as a matter of fact...ignore all previous posts from me......I tend to become stupid when I'm angry.....

we obviously need trade to keep economies going.....it's just I get so angry at having to pay money for oil to people who would much rather most likely "kill all the infidels" and buying stuff from a nation that doesn't seem to care how toxic their products are...not to mention our politicians wanting to reward lawbreaking by granting amnesty so that President Fox can continue to grow fat on corruption.....needless to say I'm angry about a lot of things I see in the world and sometimes I let my anger get the better of me and allow it to cloud my judgement....again I am truly sorry....perhaps I'm not fit to be part of this family.....if the consensus is that I should delete my GW account I will do so and bid everyone here a fond farewell....

[starlover]

*huggles MG*

Ofcourse you are worth it to be a part of the family...if even I can be here, you can certainly be here as well Don't worry and let your anger out sometimes it's needed...like I did last week
So don't you DARE it to delete your account...we will hunt you down and....let you get that account back

Be happy and talk...that is where it's for all about ...even I am also sometimes angry about ....groups of people, and say it wrong, it happens to everyone...just in the heat of the battle you say that...

[Seahen]

as a matter of fact...ignore all previous posts from me......I tend to become stupid when I'm angry.....

we obviously need trade to keep economies going.....it's just I get so angry at having to pay money for oil to people who would much rather most likely "kill all the infidels" and buying stuff from a nation that doesn't seem to care how toxic their products are...not to mention our politicians wanting to reward lawbreaking by granting amnesty so that President Fox can continue to grow fat on corruption.....needless to say I'm angry about a lot of things I see in the world and sometimes I let my anger get the better of me and allow it to cloud my judgement....again I am truly sorry....perhaps I'm not fit to be part of this family.....if the consensus is that I should delete my GW account I will do so and bid everyone here a fond farewell....

Oh FCOL, don't delete your account! Now you know better, so don't do it again. Just remember, as Yoda said, Fear and Anger lead to the dark side. It's more than just a line from a movie. And I understand you wanting to go isolationist, but putting our head in the sand won't solve anything. We are fully intergrated into the world now, for the better IMHO. There will always be corrupt, selfserving people in the world. As long as we do our best to rise above it, I think that we will prevail.

And I'd also like to mention that the year I served in South Korea was the best year in my military career. Beautiful country, beautiful people, and such a rich culture.

[Bekki]

WOw!! Nice conversation line, guys!!

This has been really interesting to read! While I disagree with most that has been said, I think it's possibly a culture thing. Eileen and I seem to have the same thoughts concerning this, but I think it's because our countries are relatively isolated, and not just due to geography. We are very lucky to be living where we are. We have a ridiculously large amount of space for the population, we are not considered a very large threat to other countries and our whole entire country (not sure about yours Eileen) suffers from tall poppy syndrome. We are too laid back It's a good thing sometimes, I swear!

And we have timtams

[mad_gater]

WOw!! Nice conversation line, guys!!

This has been really interesting to read! While I disagree with most that has been said, I think it's possibly a culture thing. Eileen and I seem to have the same thoughts concerning this, but I think it's because our countries are relatively isolated, and not just due to geography. We are very lucky to be living where we are. We have a ridiculously large amount of space for the population, we are not considered a very large threat to other countries and our whole entire country (not sure about yours Eileen) suffers from tall poppy syndrome. We are too laid back It's a good thing sometimes, I swear!

And we have timtams

LOL!!!!

Yeah.....poppyseed filled kolachkis (slavic pastries) and lemon poppyseed muffins are amongst some of my favorite foods...just have to remember not to eat any before taking a drug test....

"I swear I just had some food that had poppyseed in it officer!!"....."Yeah yeah!!! that's what they all say".....