The Israel/Lebanon situation

[Deevil]

It's quite amusing. If you say Israel is acting out of order, and disagree with them, you must be buying into propaganda. But, to agree with them is to know the 'facts' of the situation.

How laughable is that? Honestly, suekay, I agree with you. But I will suggest that perhaps you are waisting your time here. This thread is obviously in existance only to support Israel and denounce Lebanon. I frankly find it interesting that the same sort of prejudices that allows these attrocities to happen, that condones to murder of innocent civilians, is alive and true here.

It's highly interesting, and morbidly entertaining.

Might is not right. And Israel is acting as a terrorist. Not only that, they are now and invading party. It amazes me that when Israel is attacked by terrorists, no one seems to remember the rockets, or the tanks or people that they have sent into those areas to kill. (obviously, this is my opinion, because we are talking opinions here)

And since we seem to be enjoying the biblical referenceing here (and the bible, is not, complete historical fact), this is a case of David and Gollith, and the Israeli's aren't David.

But in the end it boils down to this, it is possible to disagree with this situation and be just as educated and just as justified in the opinion as those who agree with what's happening. It's life, and we all see things from different perspectives, and perhaps if we listened and learnt from each others views as a race, we wouldn't be sitting around watching the news and hearing about scores of innocents dying because of some political party flexing its powerful muscles.

[DysfunctionalVeteran]

sueKay -

DV - I think you've been reading Jewish propaganda.
Oooo.... those Wascally Jooos and their propaganda!


Both sides have been there as long as the other...
I'm trying to figure out if you're having trouble with the math or with the history...
Muhammad was born in Mecca in the Arabian Peninsula in the year 570 A.D., which is 500 years AFTER the Romans most recently tore down the Jew's temple. Maybe you've seen pictures of the guys who look like Amish folks standing in front of a huge wall and praying... that's the western wall of the Temple I'm referring to.
So I'm at a loss to understand how you figure the Jews and the Moslems have been there for the same length of time.


...but in recent times, The Palestinians have had the most legitimate claim of the land.
Really...? This I GOTTA hear...
Tell me how you figure that the palestinians have the more legitimate claim.


... if Israel hadn't pounded Palestine, do you really think Hamaas would have won the elections?
You have entirely the wrong idea about why they won. See the next answer.


They weren't politically popular until the Palestinians had enough.
That's absolutely false. Hamas gets a lot of money from outside, especially Iran & Syria. They spend part of this money on terror. They spread the rest around the neighborhood, buying elections the old fashioned way; exactly like Tammany Hall used to.


I am a true athiest...
Says you...


...and as I see it, terrorists and politicians on both sides are using religion as an excuse for murder!
You're HALF right. Islamic Terrorists do exactly that. However, the Israelis have a secular state.


I'm not ignorant because I don't know much about the bible...I don't know much about any holy book in fact. I read history books for history...not 2000 year old propaganda.
As it happens, the Old Testament contains a great deal of verified historical fact. Facts having to do with the movement of peoples, the names of cities and various historical events.
However, that's not the point.
The point is that you are using your alleged Atheism as an excuse to remain ignorant of history in an entire region of the planet.
Whether you like it or not, human beings established civilization in that part of the world about 5,500 years ago, and that is an Historical FACT, as is everything they've done since then.



It takes an Athiest to know an Athiest...
Yes, it does.
Let's see if you can manage to read between those lines.



And, for the record, The US has always been biased towards Israel...
We are also biased toward England, Canada, Germany, Japan, Australia, Italy, France, and a whole laundry list of other countries that are not as well known.
We have a bias towards Democracies, especially ones that happen to be our friends.

[DysfunctionalVeteran]

But in the end it boils down to this, it is possible to disagree with this situation and be just as educated and just as justified in the opinion as those who agree with what's happening.

Not if your opinions are in contravention of the facts.

[Deevil]

Not if your opinions are in contravention of the facts.

Oh yes, of course. But who determines what 'facts' are correct? People get their information from different sources, and therefore are likely to have a different view on the situation.

Not everyone is going to believe the US or Israel - it doesn't mean they are contravening any facts, just that they don't accept their word as gospel. In the end, information and education can no just be determined by someone saying "you're wrong because frank the mule did this." Sure, Frank may have, but that doesn't mean I have to take your word for it. The farmhand told me that Bob actually started it. Who do I believe, you or the farmhand?

So, it still boils down to perception based on someones reading and personal education. Not whether or not someone agrees with the angle they take.

[Oka]

Israel has every right to defend itself, infact - it has a duty to protect its citizens, and will do so at any cost. Terrorists are cowards and hide among civilians (most of whom support them), this is not Israels fault.

Israel has every right to exist. People who say that jews have no claim to the terroritory knows nothing about history. Palestine has never existed as a country, the arabs had their chance to set up a arab state after the cease fire in 48', nothing happened. Nothing will happen even if Israel pulls back to the pre 67' borders either. The arab's hate of the jews is in the root of their religion, just look at the antisemitic president of Iran.

Israel, we stand by you. Terrorists will never win.

[DysfunctionalVeteran]

Oh yes, of course. But who determines what 'facts' are correct?

Facts are not fungible. You don't get to decide whether or not they are true based on whether or not they agree with your preferences, prejudices or politics.

[Deevil]

Facts are not fungible. You don't get to decide whether or not they are true based on whether or not they agree with your preferences, prejudices or politics.

And yet, that is what is happening here. There is a determination that those who do not agree with Israel are either against Jews (which is laughable in ways I cannot describe) or are uneducated, rather then the fact that education and information come from a multitude of sources - and some of which some people will trust more then others.

Therefore, to imply that someones opinion or perspective on events are uneducated or unjustified is a ridiculas ascertion and does nothing to further your arguement. It doesn't make one opinion more 'right', when both sides are equally capable and able to be educated with their opinions.

[rarocks24]

Deevil, whilst I understand you may not be against Jews but against Israel's actions, a good percentage of the most outspoken in this have always been spouting off crap against Israel.

And claiming that the source for this is your distrust of Israel's actions due to the past without providing enough examples and evidence to collaborate your claim shows you've bought into the opposite side's propaganda whilst you and others here claim that they've bought into the American Pro-Israel's propaganda.

[Dark Falcon]

Israel is having an extremely difficult time dealing with
Lebanon when it has its hands full trying to build the
barrier that separates Israel from Palestine.

[Deevil]

Deevil, whilst I understand you may not be against Jews but against Israel's actions, a good percentage of the most outspoken in this have always been spouting off crap against Israel.

But to spout of crap against Israel is not the same as being anti-semetic. I think that is a distinction that is required here. Kind of not liking Tibet (if it were the case) is not being against Buddhism.

And claiming that the source for this is your distrust of Israel's actions due to the past without providing enough examples and evidence to collaborate your claim shows you've bought into the opposite side's propaganda whilst you and others here claim that they've bought into the American Pro-Israel's propaganda.

I've bought no propaganda. I read both sides and evaluate from there. Too many years of post-grad study to act any other way (and my opinion isn't solely based on past actions... but that doesn't matter). Anyway, in the same vain, there has been just as little evidence provided to support Israel. But even with the evidence provided, we all will view it differently... spin it differently and it will mean something different.

My point is, all opinions are equal. To tell someone (or imply) that they cannot have an opinion is opposition of the accepted and popular one is just ridiculas. You may disagree - but that doesn't make either opinion 'superior'. That is my point. And it doesn't make anyone anti-semetic to disagree with their actions.

[dosed150]

i cant believe that our government is backing america on this one i mean the whole rest of the world thinks isreal at least have an equal share of the blame isreal cannot win the propoganda war even if it wasnt intentonal killing un observers will not be let go especially seiing as one was chinese china is not a country you want to go pissing off

[rarocks24]

i cant believe that our government is backing america on this one i mean the whole rest of the world thinks isreal at least have an equal share of the blame isreal cannot win the propoganda war even if it wasnt intentonal killing un observers will not be let go especially seiing as one was chinese china is not a country you want to go pissing off

What's not to believe? The British government obviously thinks otherwise, or they're not going to interfere. And why should they? The world gets annoyed when America noses into everybody else's business, so why should the world meddle in Israel's?

Hezbollah doesn't get much sympathy in the fact that they murdered over 200 of our people back in the 80's when they blew up one of our barracks.

[DysfunctionalVeteran]

And yet, that is what is happening here.

Yes, and I have been calling you on it ever since you began doing it.

[DysfunctionalVeteran]

My point is, all opinions are equal.

Really?

So George Bush's opinions are equal to yours?

[Deevil]

Yes, and I have been calling you on it ever since you began doing it.

Mate, I haven't been the one judging anyones opinion as right or wrong. Perhaps, if I can suggest, you revise your own posts.

Really?

So George Bush's opinions are equal to yours?

Sure they are. His opinions are no more better, or worse, then mine. But considering he is the leader of a country, he shouldn't be basing any decision he makes on his opinions.