The Samanda Whinge nuts

[scarimor]

Then, as SJ ship canon was introduced (most, or only notably in D&C), the JDs got EVEN more riled and blamed it on little idiot sam pining after her amazing CO that only had eyes for Daniel.

Like I said before - big irony. Sam doesn't do any love-lorning for Jack in that episode. She shows not a hint of romantic affection for him - it's all the other way: Jack caring about her more than he's "supposed" to.

there was a 2 year? gap between the movie and the show. the foundations had already been set. Fans were already locked on Jack and Daniel as the major protagonists.

Another irony: I doubt the show would have been the success it turned out to be without Sam in it. She has been crucial to its general popularity.

[Skydiver]

Like I said before - big irony. Sam doesn't do any love-lorning for Jack in that episode. She shows not a hint of romantic affection for him - it's all the other way: Jack caring about her more than he's "supposed" to..

yeah. the irony is, if anyone's pining after someone else, it's jack. but it's easier to blame sam

a) she's a pretty woman so i'msure there's some jealousy going on
b) she's 'competition' for daniel
c) she's not the other half of the preferred ship (for some, jack/daniel)

Another irony: I doubt the show would have been the success it turned out to be without Sam in it. She has been crucial to its general popularity.

look at the buddy shows and how long they last.

simon and simon being one, the sentinel being another. Buddy shows aren't very popular in the long run. About the only one i can recall being relatively successful was Hercules...and Herc was about far more than Herc adn Iolaus...which is likely why it thrived. and it also had a relatively regular influx of female characters, just like gabrielle and xena had their fair share of male characters

Fair or not, male/female relationships, friendship or more, are appealing to many. And shows without an opposing gender in it don't tend to do well

Personally? i tend to like shows with strong female characters in them. Medium, L&O SVU, ER, CSI, Vegas (which is kinda just for fun), NCIS, etc.

shows with no females in it...boring to me

[AGateFan]

yeah. the irony is, if anyone's pining after someone else, it's jack. but it's easier to blame sam

a) she's a pretty woman so i'msure there's some jealousy going on
b) she's 'competition' for daniel
c) she's not the other half of the preferred ship (for some, jack/daniel)




look at the buddy shows and how long they last.

simon and simon being one, the sentinel being another. Buddy shows aren't very popular in the long run. About the only one i can recall being relatively successful was Hercules...and Herc was about far more than Herc adn Iolaus...which is likely why it thrived. and it also had a relatively regular influx of female characters, just like gabrielle and xena had their fair share of male characters

Fair or not, male/female relationships, friendship or more, are appealing to many. And shows without an opposing gender in it don't tend to do well

Personally? i tend to like shows with strong female characters in them. Medium, L&O SVU, ER, CSI, Vegas (which is kinda just for fun), NCIS, etc.

shows with no females in it...boring to me

Despite what Stargate TPTB think I think most sci-fi fans prefer shows with strong females in it. Thus the popularity of X-Files, Stargate (s1-s8) and Babylon 5 (with Ivonava gone it just wasn’t the same). Also people preferred Crusher and uniformed Troi over the way too emotional security lady (whose name isn’t even important enough for me to recall right now). Ellen Ripley is a freaking goddess in sci-fi as is Sarah Connor.

But still TV execs and producers (and some fan fic writers) insist on going with the Damsels in distress or the bimbos. They fail time after time and the strong female attracts viewers time after time but they never learn.

I am not a shipper, Stargate was always great because it had that for the people who wanted it but it was subtle enough for those of us that just didn’t want to see another instance where a regular straight female character was falling for the leading man. (Note that non-straight females don’t fair much better in the hands of shippy TPTB as their relationships are even more exploited then the leading lady\leading man thing). I just like personal lives to be personal. Show a hint that something happens off-screen is fine, focusing on it as the full story is just more soap opera exploitation IMHO.

Sorry, back to your conversation now....I just dont get how two of the longest running scifi shows can have good solid female characters yet TV makers dont get it and continue to throw the crpy onlygoodforhittingontheotherguygirl cliche at us.

[ReganX]

If you think about it, in the Stargate universe, before Sam Carter, Daniel was the genius scientific mind that played counterbalance to Jack's tactical/military mindset. Sam came into play and she was both scientist and soldier, both beautiful and intelligent; she had a lot to do in that she was a technical/mechanical/physics powerhouse, etc., etc., so you ended up with folks saying: Hey, Daniel has to survive on his own being nothing more than a genius geeky-achaeologist and Sam gets to be both a genius and a jock (the female version thereof). So there'd be comments to the effect that Sam was a superhero and Daniel was more 'real' (etc etc). That it was unfair. That Sam's extra character qualities served to make her more valuable than Daniel and that Daniel was the one who (some perceived) should have been the most important scientific mind on the team (again, throwback to the movie). Tough cookie to swallow for some folks, apparently, and the factionalization of the fan base (not to mention a certain amount of implied tension between the actors themselves) was imminent therein.

geek

So poor Sam's first crime was being Sam.

As far as Sam being both a scientist and a soldier goes, whichever of the writers decided that she should be both definitely deserves a gold star.

Had she been a scientist only, the team would have been split down the middle; two warriors and two scholars. The science -vs- military thing would have gotten very old, very fast had Sam not had a foot in both camps.

Had she been a soldier without the scientific side, not only would Daniel have been the odd man out among a group of soldiers, the team would have been pretty royally screwed - as intelligent as Daniel is, a linguist/archaeologist/anthropologist wouldn't be much use if there was a problem with the 'gate offworld, if Earth was being slowly sucked through a black hole, if alien technology needed to be explored or adapted, etc - unless the writers were going to temporarily attach scientists to the team for half their missions.

[ReganX]

apparently you're more imaginative then you thought. because the biggest argument i've ever heard from anti-shippers is that it 'came out of nowhere in D&C'.

I'm incredibly bad at noticing budding romantic relationships on TV shows - I didn't realize that there was supposed to be subtext in Xena until I read about it in a magazine, which pointed out examples, well into its fourth season - but I didn't think that the ship in "Divide In Conquer" came out of nowhere.

not in some people's eyes (more than one friend). to others, Jack and Daniel weren't just friends, and Sam--sometimes even just her friendship--gets in the way of that. sometimes its only (D&C) canon ship that they gets in the way. sometimes its all three. Teal'c's hardly ever a problem for any fangroup, because he doesn’t come across as a main lead. too silent.

As a matter of curiousity, does anybody know if Sam's friendship with Daniel considered a problem by those who consider her a barrier or an unwanted complication to Jack and Daniel's friendship and/or romantic/sexual relationship?

[ParadoxRealities]

I'm incredibly bad at noticing budding romantic relationships on TV shows - I didn't realize that there was supposed to be subtext in Xena until I read about it in a magazine, which pointed out examples, well into its fourth season - but I didn't think that the ship in "Divide In Conquer" came out of nowhere.

As a matter of curiousity, does anybody know if Sam's friendship with Daniel considered a problem by those who consider her a barrier or an unwanted complication to Jack and Daniel's friendship and/or romantic/sexual relationship?

i don't think it comes up as much, but i have heard of it.

So poor Sam's first crime was being Sam.

i think her first crime was existing. then came being sam; then came being friends (or more) with jack and/or daniel. each of which carries a very heavy sentence.

[LaCroix]

d&c is also an issue because, prior to that, the shippers were just seeing things. they were projecting, they were imagining. it wasn't real

then comes D&C and presto chango wham bam thank you maam, ship was canon.

and the shippers celebrated the fact...just as the anti shippers loudly bemoaned thier being on the 'losing' side.

that hurt feeling at losing began to manifest itself in keeping score, counting lines, comparing plots, tearing down one character to belittle her and her fans, elevating another regardless of the cost to the other characters, etc, etc, etc.

pretty much everything since then, the issues with the ship storyline in s4+, jonas, daniel's departure, daniel's return, sam's other relationships, the overly harsh crit of sam, the crit of jack, all of that can be traced back to the moment that one 'side' of the fandom was proven to be 'wrong' while the other was proven to be 'right'

That's right. When I was in that fandom, there was stories after,stories
in which Sam was the "bad" person, where people wrote Daniel didn't want to approach Jack because of his feelings for Sam.

It took me a long time not to read the name Sam and not get angry. But I slowly turned away from "the dark side".

I can see why that fandom went with Vala. She was/stll the only one who can cause problems for Sam. I wish that they could see the beauty of Sam and the actor that plays her.

[ReganX]

to me, if the relationship is the backbone of the series/fic, it's ship. Regardless of gender. If the relationship can be taken out of the series/fic and the fic still exists, it's gen.

That makes sense. I wouldn't class a story as "ship" if it was predominantly action-adventure/humour/drama/etc with an occasional shippy hint.

The issue comes when the double standard comes into play.

to many, all m/f interactions are foreplay while all same gender interactions are given the benefit of the doubt until something declarative and undeniable happens.

So a supposedly "ship" fic with Sam and Jack wouldn't automatically translate to a "slash" fic if Sam was replaced by Daniel? What about if Jack was replaced by Daniel or Teal'c? Are any and all interactions between Sam and Daniel or Sam and Teal'c shippy or just interactions between Sam and Jack?

[ReganX]

That's right. When I was in that fandom, there was stories after,stories
in which Sam was the "bad" person, where people wrote Daniel didn't want to approach Jack because of his feelings for Sam.

Do you mean that Sam was the bad guy because Jack had feelings for her?

[LaCroix]

Do you mean that Sam was the bad guy because Jack had feelings for her?

Sam was written as the one who came between Jack and Daniel, that is friendship/slash role. That whatever the relationship before D&C was, it was gone because of that.

I hopes this explains it.

[Skydiver]

Sam was written as the one who came between Jack and Daniel, that is friendship/slash role. That whatever the relationship before D&C was, it was gone because of that.

I hopes this explains it.

see, in the pov of some, as long as jack has 'feelings' for sam, then those are feelings that he can't have for daniel.

thus she's 'competition' and 'bad'

[Skydiver]

I can see why that fandom went with Vala. She was/stll the only one who can cause problems for Sam. I wish that they could see the beauty of Sam and the actor that plays her.

vala's not competition for daniel. at least not yet. I'm willing to bet that he'll be nicely wall papered iwth the blonde and the black guy by the end of the season.

imho, the only reason we had so much vala/daniel interaction was to avoid the immediate 'they're recreating farscape' crit...and i personally think skiffy et al manipulated the fans by pairing daniel and vala. After years of letters, they knew that anything that gave daniel air time would be seen as great by the ardent daniel fans, so they paired vala with him, to generate the 'omg, she's so great' letters...and get the support to bring her into the cast.

course, now that she's the 'beloved vala' skiffy doesn't have to worry as much about the fargate crit and i bet ya that daniel will get more and more marginalized as the episodes roll on.

he'll join sam and teal'c in the wallpaper dept, but by then i'll be too late. cam and vala will be ensconced in Fargate II and the original three will be neatly written out

[ReganX]

see, in the pov of some, as long as jack has 'feelings' for sam, then those are feelings that he can't have for daniel.

thus she's 'competition' and 'bad'

So Sam is perceived as a threat and is therefore a horrible person?

Is Jack a bad guy for having feelings for Sam instead of Daniel, or is it all her fault because she is the focus of those feelings?

[Skydiver]

So a supposedly "ship" fic with Sam and Jack wouldn't automatically translate to a "slash" fic if Sam was replaced by Daniel? What about if Jack was replaced by Daniel or Teal'c? Are any and all interactions between Sam and Daniel or Sam and Teal'c shippy or just interactions between Sam and Jack?

sam and jack is the most discriminated against fic out there. the same folks that hate that icky het stuff in the show, just adore daneil/vala, jack/sara, daniel/sarah, teal'c/ishta, etc, etc,

so it's not as much anti-het as it is anti-sam/jack...but many of them won't just come out and say 'we hate this pairing', so they express thier dislike of all het ship...while giving tacit approval to the other pairings

[Skydiver]

So Sam is perceived as a threat and is therefore a horrible person?

Is Jack a bad guy for having feelings for Sam instead of Daniel, or is it all her fault because she is the focus of those feelings?

usually, i'ts her fault. she's distracting jack from his twu wuv