The Samanda Whinge nuts

[astrogeologist]

I want the strong characters of Sam, Teal'c and Daniel back, I want the Stargate of old back. I can handle new characters and storylines, I like interesting changes. I want a Stargate made with the same QUALITY of yesteryear, why are they incapable of delivering it now?? They used to be able to.

Well said, RoX!

[ForeverSg1]

Oh, hello! I know this isn't a popular opinion, but Carter in Reckoning makes me twitch. Frankly, astro-G, I think you're being too generous. Carter read monitoring data from her laptop screen whilst Jacob-Selmac did the work; heck, even Ba'al did more to get the device unlocked by guessing!

I'd been itchy since at least Evolution, but Reckoning was when I'd officially had enough of Jacob-Selmac.

I totally disagree, I think Reckoning was perfectly written for Sam and Jacob. Personally I often find it quite implausible that Sam can just understand alien technology. I know she has a brilliant mind and I like that episodes when the technology is beyond her but she still tries to understand. She may be an observer, but she's learning. She's still questioning and I think that totally rings true for Sam. It's like Revisions. I really didn't care for the episode itself, but I found it totally believeable that Sam would try to figure out the computer system. It required Sam getting someone else's help which toally made sense that she wouldn't be able to understand everything...b Sam still helped. She seemed thoroughly interested in the difference in their technology. Which was classic Sam to me. Collateral Damage on the other hand was a joke. I didn't expect Sam to fix the problem, but all she did was sit there and hold Mitchell's hand per se. She didn't show the slightest interest in the technology which bothered me. Normally Sam would have been up in their faces trying to figure out how it all worked and suddenly that part of Sam was gone. In Reckoning, she and Jacob worked together. Yes Jacob had to figure out the setting for the machine, but it was all still very plausible to me. We were talking about a machine that could utterly destroy the entire galaxy if it wasn't set properly. As intelligent as Sam is, Ba'al and Selmak both have more knowledge about about the Stargate system and Gou'ald/Ancient technology than Sam, so I had no issues with them being there to help Sam figure out the problem.

Spoiler:

Personally I have more issues with scenes like Morpheus where Sam is doing an autopsy on a corpse. It just doesn't seem real to me. I hate episodes where the only part Sam that is written is one where she really shouldn't be involved in. It's as if they couldn't bother to write a real part for her so they just stick her in some roll so she will still be on camera.

[minigeek]

Spoiler:

Personally I have more issues with scenes like Morpheus where Sam is doing an autopsy on a corpse. It just doesn't seem real to me. I hate episodes where the only part Sam that is written is one where she really shouldn't be involved in. It's as if they couldn't bother to write a real part for her so they just stick her in some roll so she will still be on camera.

See, that's a scene I didn't have a problem with. Because

Spoiler:

When there are only a couple of scientists around, even if one of them isn't specialized in a particular area, it does make sense that they'd still be able to help the other one who is - the same way Carter helped Frasier a few times with medical challenges. The way Carter sometimes helps Daniel and Daniel sometimes helps Carter. There's a method to that madness, IMHO. I don't mind it. As long as Carter wasn't LEADING the autopsy, it's cool with me that she was assisting. Given the circumstances. Certainly far smarter than someone like... Cam, for example. Or Teal'c ... Of course, I do agree with you that I'd like to see Sam have some real usefulness in her OWN area of expertise where she can lead the solution, for a change. I'd love to see more of that come into play again. *sigh*

[ShimmeringStar]

What I think would have been scifi 'cool' would have been to add a new character - perhaps as a new member of SG-1, perhaps not, but have them be a new alien that joins the SGC cause. And this new alien should not look completely human. There should be something that easily sets them apart as alien. Something that says 'scifi' every time this character is even on the screen. I'm not advocating outrageous makeup... just something that screams 'alien'. And it should have been a newly encountered alien... maybe a Furling... the last of his/her race or some such.

The alien in this GW'er's signature gets my vote for the Furling.

http://forum.gateworld.net/member.php?u=172

[jckfan55]

I totally disagree, I think Reckoning was perfectly written for Sam and Jacob. Personally I often find it quite implausible that Sam can just understand alien technology. I know she has a brilliant mind and I like that episodes when the technology is beyond her but she still tries to understand. She may be an observer, but she's learning. She's still questioning and I think that totally rings true for Sam. It's like Revisions. I really didn't care for the episode itself, but I found it totally believeable that Sam would try to figure out the computer system. It required Sam getting someone else's help which toally made sense that she wouldn't be able to understand everything...b Sam still helped. She seemed thoroughly interested in the difference in their technology. Which was classic Sam to me. Collateral Damage on the other hand was a joke. I didn't expect Sam to fix the problem, but all she did was sit there and hold Mitchell's hand per se. She didn't show the slightest interest in the technology which bothered me. Normally Sam would have been up in their faces trying to figure out how it all worked and suddenly that part of Sam was gone. In Reckoning, she and Jacob worked together. Yes Jacob had to figure out the setting for the machine, but it was all still very plausible to me. We were talking about a machine that could utterly destroy the entire galaxy if it wasn't set properly. As intelligent as Sam is, Ba'al and Selmak both have more knowledge about about the Stargate system and Gou'ald/Ancient technology than Sam, so I had no issues with them being there to help Sam figure out the problem.

Spoiler:

Personally I have more issues with scenes like Morpheus where Sam is doing an autopsy on a corpse. It just doesn't seem real to me. I hate episodes where the only part Sam that is written is one where she really shouldn't be involved in. It's as if they couldn't bother to write a real part for her so they just stick her in some roll so she will still be on camera.

[/QUOTE]

See that didn't bother me, b/c she often did that with Janet.

Spoiler:

By that time in the episode there were no more helpers for Dr. R., so Sam was the logical one to help. I was just pleased Cam hadn't suddenly developed the skills to do the autopsy by himself!

[DEM]

I totally disagree, I think Reckoning was perfectly written for Sam and Jacob. Personally I often find it quite implausible that Sam can just understand alien technology. I know she has a brilliant mind and I like that episodes when the technology is beyond her but she still tries to understand. She may be an observer, but she's learning.

The starting point of this discussion was recent trends in writing Carter as a strong protagonist. DOER. Solution-maker. What uniquely Carter things did she do that advanced the solution? When I think of Reckoning, I think of Daniel as having real impact but Carter not-so-much.

As intelligent as Sam is, Ba'al and Selmak both have more knowledge about about the Stargate system and Gou'ald/Ancient technology than Sam, so I had no issues with them being there to help Sam figure out the problem.

And here's a big source of our difference. To me, that last sentence is written backwards. That sequence played out to me as Carter (the main) being there to help them (the guests).

Spoiler:

Personally I have more issues with scenes like Morpheus where Sam is doing an autopsy on a corpse. It just doesn't seem real to me. I hate episodes where the only part Sam that is written is one where she really shouldn't be involved in. It's as if they couldn't bother to write a real part for her so they just stick her in some roll so she will still be on camera.

I agree with mmmgeek that Morpheus

Spoiler:

made sense given the circumstance; it fit with the narrative -- unlike, say, the 'autopsy' in Evolution which I guessed instantly and correctly was a patch job to cover for a non-available Teryl Rothery.

Indeed, for Reckoning I would have preferred a scenario more like Revisions or Morpheus. Hmm, maybe that's not quite the way to characterise what I would have preferred... Let me see if I can find a post I made elsewhere regarding what I would have preferred Daniel's and Carter's roles in that episode.

ADDENDA:
1. The Sentinel was a far better dramatisation of a scenario very similar to Reckoning.

2. To bring this back to writing trends: I would argue that in S7-8 the writers started moving down a slippery slope and, thus, have gotten to a point that they no longer quite remember what Carter-as-protagonist really looks like.

[ForeverSg1]

See, that's a scene I didn't have a problem with. Because

Spoiler:

When there are only a couple of scientists around, even if one of them isn't specialized in a particular area, it does make sense that they'd still be able to help the other one who is - the same way Carter helped Frasier a few times with medical challenges. The way Carter sometimes helps Daniel and Daniel sometimes helps Carter. There's a method to that madness, IMHO. I don't mind it. As long as Carter wasn't LEADING the autopsy, it's cool with me that she was assisting. Given the circumstances. Certainly far smarter than someone like... Cam, for example. Or Teal'c ... Of course, I do agree with you that I'd like to see Sam have some real usefulness in her OWN area of expertise where she can lead the solution, for a change. I'd love to see more of that come into play again. *sigh*

True we have seen Sam do medical things like this but I still don't believe she would have training in such areas. I mean if it doesn't take medical doctor to assist an autopsy, then for once let Mitchell be the one assisting and let Sam go do recon with Teal'c and Daniel. I just don't know why Sam's always the one to be left to do stuff that she really has no experitise doing simply because they feel they can toss in her that roll. I didn't feel comfortable with Sam doing that in Frozen or Evolution or several other episodes, but I was willing to overlook those instances because they were balanced with episodes where we saw Sam, the soldier and scientist, doing what she does well. In S9 and in S10 all we typically get anymore is Sam in situations where she really shouldn't be, such as the

Spoiler:

autopsy in Morpheus

and babysitting Orlin in FH1&2 or babysitting the International Committee in The Scourge. As much as I liked the scene between Sam and Woosley, it ticks me to no end that Mitchell is the one always sent out to check things out and Sam is stuck back doing the crap jobs that any guest star could do. I'm also really sick of seeing Mitchell trying to bond with the other three characters and yet we get very little bonding between Daniel, Teal'c and Sam. Furthermore, I hate that the writers keep trying to show Vala bonding with the other guys moreso than Sam. That basketball scene last season was really annoying to me because for seven years I wanted them to do scenes like that between the characters, where we could see them bonding outside of work and we were only given a few instances such as in Lost City. I just don't understand why they could never show SG-1 just having fun together before S9, but suddenly it's fine and dandy to show it. *grumbles to self*

Sorry this is probably more suited for the rage thread, but I'm just irrirated with the show and it's hard to find a positive side any more.

[the dancer of spaz]

Great points, Forever. I agree. The times where we had to overlook them were surely easier to swallow because of the balance of eps where we got to see multiple facets of Sam.

And that lovely moment between Sam and Woolsey almost totally made up for the "Cam Runs Off To Take Care of Business" moment - one that'll be all to prevalent in both seasons - because it helps to reinforce that Sam has logic behind her decisions and her roles she takes. She's serving a purpose behind brute strength and an eagerness to take part in the fun.

In Morpheus,

Spoiler:

She was the only other scientist, and I'm glad they took care to show her in an assistant role. She was helping him; she wasn't doing his work with him. I'm glad that they went that route.

The same goes for the moment in F&B.

Spoiler:

When Cam just ran off with an, "I'm going with them," without even explaining why, and Sam said she was going, too. Upon being questioned by Emerson, she had LOGIC to follow through with her decision.

All of this makes it easier for me to laugh at the decisions they've made with the Cameron Mitchell character, and at the fact that they continue to unwittingly write Sam as the more competent of the two "leaders".

[astrogeologist]

1. The Sentinel was a far better dramatisation of a scenario very similar to Reckoning.

I too really liked the ending of Sentinel - I liked the part where Carter went with her gut understanding of the situation and over-ruled Jack's orders and let the other guy go ahead and try and operate the machine. Great strong Carter role (and she didn't have to be arrogant or whiney or a ***** to be a strong, competent female!)

2. To bring this back to writing trends: I would argue that in S7-8 the writers started moving down a slippery slope and, thus, have gotten to a point that they no longer quite remember what Carter-as-protagonist really looks like.

And I agree here as well. Once they started trying to show Carter's vulnerabilities, they went waaaaayyyy too far over to that side of things - it's like all they know how to do is to write extremes (or cartoons, or caricatures). Again, they forgot to write Carter as balanced. Once they went for writing in a boyfriend, they went too far and soap-operad it into unbelievability... which, as unbelievable as it is, becomes canon - because it was what was shown on an actual episode (we can't pretend it was bad fanfic).

[astrogeologist]

True we have seen Sam do medical things like this but I still don't believe she would have training in such areas. I mean if it doesn't take medical doctor to assist an autopsy, then for once let Mitchell be the one assisting and let Sam go do recon with Teal'c and Daniel. I just don't know why Sam's always the one to be left to do stuff that she really has no experitise doing simply because they feel they can toss in her that roll. I didn't feel comfortable with Sam doing that in Frozen or Evolution or several other episodes, but I was willing to overlook those instances because they were balanced with episodes where we saw Sam, the soldier and scientist, doing what she does well. In S9 and in S10 all we typically get anymore is Sam in situations where she really shouldn't be, such as the

Spoiler:

autopsy in Morpheus

and babysitting Orlin in FH1&2 or babysitting the International Committee in The Scourge. As much as I liked the scene between Sam and Woosley, it ticks me to no end that Mitchell is the one always sent out to check things out and Sam is stuck back doing the crap jobs that any guest star could do. I'm also really sick of seeing Mitchell trying to bond with the other three characters and yet we get very little bonding between Daniel, Teal'c and Sam. Furthermore, I hate that the writers keep trying to show Vala bonding with the other guys moreso than Sam. That basketball scene last season was really annoying to me because for seven years I wanted them to do scenes like that between the characters, where we could see them bonding outside of work and we were only given a few instances such as in Lost City. I just don't understand why they could never show SG-1 just having fun together before S9, but suddenly it's fine and dandy to show it. *grumbles to self*

Sorry this is probably more suited for the rage thread, but I'm just irrirated with the show and it's hard to find a positive side any more.

I'm with you here, Kat! I feel exactly the same way about the basketball scene!

[the dancer of spaz]

I'm with you here, Kat! I feel exactly the same way about the basketball scene!

When I first saw it, I was like, "What the heck?!"

And then I was like... "Well, I guess it was cute. Sort of."

From there, I just kinda accepted it.

But the more I think about it, the more out of place and odd and HAMFISTED it was. It was like a, "See? Look how much FUN we're having on set!" scene. And apparently it totally sparked for some. Not for me, though.

[suse]

For quite a long time my personal opinion has been that RCC wanted another new spinoff series made with characters he had a hand in creating (Mitchell, Vala, Landry). I'll also hazard a guess that he wanted it to be in the style of say Andromeda, where the show was written to showcase one hero. Lots of flash and bang and heroics and let's not get too worried about the plots.

Unfortunately the money men had other ideas, gotta go for that Nth American SciFi record (which they still haven't broken until they get episode 203 on air). Sadly we all know who has had the guiding hands on the reins for SG-1 since mid S7 (I think) and standing back we can see what has been done to the show. The uniquenes that was SG-1 has gradually diminished until it is gone. Sadly I don't think the current PTB really understand what made their show unique and popular.

As the years have gone on, the structure of TPTB has changed. As each year progresses there are less independent people at the top to give an "objective view" of things within the show. Writers, producers and directors all now hold multi positions. The effect on the show is now evident.

That the character of Sam has been written further and further away from the strong character of canon since S7 - do the math!! I have and so have others. Look at what has been done to Teal'c as well, by S9 both characters have been made into wallpaper. IMHO these characters were not intended to be in the new series / movies, some people can only play with one set of toys at a time apparently.

TPTB are in desperate need of independent executives with the quality of the show as their priority. To be a success at anything that requires a team effort, you need a cross section of skills and thinking. This aspect is now missing from TPTB and my personal opinion is that one man's vision (or lack of it as the case may be) is slowing grinding the show down.

I want the strong characters of Sam, Teal'c and Daniel back, I want the Stargate of old back. I can handle new characters and storylines, I like interesting changes. I want a Stargate made with the same QUALITY of yesteryear, why are they incapable of delivering it now?? They used to be able to.

What a great post! And not only because it says - only way better - what I said on the Anti-8/10 thread(s) I don't think they've ever heard the term "Creative Consultant". JMS hired Harlen Ellison to be his. A good idea as he was a writer and EP (well, B5 was solely his vision) and knew he might need a swift kick every now and again.

Suse

[ReganX]

I'm also really sick of seeing Mitchell trying to bond with the other three characters and yet we get very little bonding between Daniel, Teal'c and Sam. Furthermore, I hate that the writers keep trying to show Vala bonding with the other guys moreso than Sam. That basketball scene last season was really annoying to me because for seven years I wanted them to do scenes like that between the characters, where we could see them bonding outside of work and we were only given a few instances such as in Lost City. I just don't understand why they could never show SG-1 just having fun together before S9, but suddenly it's fine and dandy to show it. *grumbles to self*

They didn't need to force togetherness/bonding scenes between the team pre-Season Nine. Don't get me wrong, it would have been nice to see Jack, Sam, Daniel and Teal'c play basketball or go on a picnic together or something (provided the writers didn't screw it up) but back then we knew that the team cared about each other, we could see it for ourselves in episodes like "In The Line Of Duty", "A Hundred Days", "Meridian", etc.

We didn't need to see them playing basketball or planning video nights because we didn't need to see huge billboards.

Didja see that? Didja? They're bonding! They've accepted Mitchell (Vala)! Isn't he (she) great!

[Skydiver]

creative consultant would be a WONDERFUL idea.

I'm the first to admit that, while i loved JMS' shows and what he and ellison cranked out...while both men may be complete and total jerks at times and certainly not personable, they did work well together.

the key to this, if tptb were to even consider needing a consultant - read beta for thier work - they'd have to admit that they're not the bestest most wonderful and skilled writers in the world

and i don't know if thier arrogance will allow them to do that. If scifi was wanting to save the show, they might make it a conditino to getting s11...but personally i think that scifi is quite happy if the show dies. then tehy can get rid of all that high priced baggage adn start fresh....with stuff along the lines of the drek they dish out saturday nights - scifi original movies where only about 4 a year are decent and the rest are complete and total crap

[jckfan55]

When I first saw it, I was like, "What the heck?!"

And then I was like... "Well, I guess it was cute. Sort of."

From there, I just kinda accepted it.

But the more I think about it, the more out of place and odd and HAMFISTED it was. It was like a, "See? Look how much FUN we're having on set!" scene. And apparently it totally sparked for some. Not for me, though.

Perfect description. It was so blatantly--"see what a team we are! Vala and Mitchell are cool!" If Sam had been in it, maybe.