Has Ascension weakened the show? possible spoilers

[ecm101]

Thank you Someone agrees with me
It doesn't happen offten...

[spg_1983]

Janet didn't ascend because, in my immagination, Oma is now in trouble with the law, on the run, or has been exiled to,... maybe Kheb, in the same way Orlin was exiled when he got caught.

see janet wouldnt ascend for the same reason jack wouldnt. they are both doer and fighters that would never give up and would do everything in their power to help. there is no way janet would just stand (float?) by and not do anything to help people if she had all that power. also i dont like the way the show turned ascension into an ascended being like oma "ascends" you. it was supposed to be that you ascended your self when you reach the highest level of enlightenment.

[keshou]

Lots of interesting thoughts in this thread.

1) Daniel's ascension. Was okay, a believable progression of his arc with Oma and Shifu. Daniel was always fascinated with all that stuff and it worked to remove his character from the show, while allowing the possibility that he wasn't really "dead" dead. I would have also been fine with Daniel being removed in a different manner, perhaps just missing as was stated above.

2) Daniel/Jack in Abyss. Sure, based on Jack's personality, ascension isn't something he'd probably choose, heck he doesn't even think he's ascension material. I think Daniel offered him to help him ascend because (a) that's all Oma would let Daniel do and (b) Daniel truly sees something noble in Jack that Jack doesn't see in himself. I imagine Jack thinks every other member of his team is more "worthy" of ascension than he is, yet he's their leader and has helped save Earth as many times as they have, has given just as much. So while it was obvious Jack wouldn't accept the offer (and I suspect Daniel knew that), I think deep down it might have made him feel pretty good that it was placed on the table.

3) Full Circle. Well here's where the whole ascension thing started falling apart for me. Skarr'a was bordering on crossing the line and when all of Abydos was ascended it just became a cheap plot contrivance so the audience wouldn't have to "suffer" the pain of losing Abydos. Well, it would have been better for the show to have suffered the pain. Let us lose, let it hurt, let ascension not be used to cheat death for the whole, frelling village. Let Daniel and the others have to deal with the fallout.

4) Daniel's return from ascension. I think it could have been an interesting development to have Daniel kicked out of the club, if they'd handled it differently. Let Daniel be changed in some way that's not totally revealed at first -- maybe there were some things the Ancients left buried in his mind, some mysteries that could slowly be revealed. As it was you'd hardly know Daniel hadn't been on a lovely tour of Europe for a year (complete with a personal trainer) rather than dead and ascended. I enjoy the character and his interaction with the others but if they weren't going to do anything interesting and unique with his arc they might as well have left him ascended.

5) Death has now been brought back to Stargate, I doubt you'll be seeing any more ascension tricks (at least I hope not). Still the damage was done and I do think the show was weakened a little as a result. To answer your original question!

[Dani347]

Lots of interesting thoughts in this thread.


2) Daniel/Jack in Abyss. Sure, based on Jack's personality, ascension isn't something he'd probably choose, heck he doesn't even think he's ascension material. I think Daniel offered him to help him ascend because (a) that's all Oma would let Daniel do and (b) Daniel truly sees something noble in Jack that Jack doesn't see in himself. I imagine Jack thinks every other member of his team is more "worthy" of ascension than he is, yet he's their leader and has helped save Earth as many times as they have, has given just as much. So while it was obvious Jack wouldn't accept the offer (and I suspect Daniel knew that), I think deep down it might have made him feel pretty good that it was placed on the table.

I also see it as akin to someone who can't bring themselves to help someone commit suicide, even if the person is terminal. It's not that the person doesn't know the other that well, or even care. One part of them might even think it's the only option to give the dying friend peace. But, they can't do it. Daniel was in a position where he didn't have to just wait helplessly. He at least had the option to offer ascension. And, I think he would think Jack was worthy. At least as worthy as himself. Also, there was no harm in offering. At that moment, it seemed like the only option, other than letting Jack die for good (which, i don't think he could bring himself to do). So, even if Jack never would have accepted it, I don't see how it didn't make sense for him to offer. Sometimes, you have to lay all your cards out on the table.

As it was you'd hardly know Daniel hadn't been on a lovely tour of Europe for a year (complete with a personal trainer) rather than dead and ascended.

Sadly, that's too true.

[BoBWraith]

I have read alot of good points in this thread, but there are some I don't agree with.
There may be spoilers beyond this point.
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1)Ascension itself is not the problem, but misuse of the concept did hurt the show a bit. Since it was first hinted at in season 3, I don't think it was intended to be a copout for getting rid of characters while keeping the option of them returning.
2)Daniel's ascension was a good idea for a couple of reasons. First, he had already begun the journey in Maternal Instinct and, as someone else said, it makes sense for his charcter. Second, it was a good way to get rid of his character for awhile, and I think it was better than having him disappear or quit. While quitting might have worked, it just isn't likely; and if he disappeared you would have an entire season of Daniel hunting unless you had the rest of SG-1 act out of character and give up on him. Anyway, him being missing/dead has been done before as it is.
3)Daniel offering Jack a chance to ascend in Abyss was the right thing to do in that case. I think Daniel knew Jack wouldn't go for it, but since that was all he was allowed to do; he did. I think he also offered because he knows that Jack is a good man regardless of what he's done.
4)Daniel's return to human form was also well done IMO. In season 5's Ascension, the precedent was set that ascended beings have rules and that there are consequences for breaking them; and that an ascended being can return to human form for a good enough reason. My personal theory is that Daniel wasn't "kicked out", but that he descended to human form for the same reason that he finally stepped up to Anubis: he was sick of watching his friends suffer fighting an enemy while he did nothing. I don't think the "others" can actually "kick out" anyone. As was explained in Full Circle, they tried to kick Anubis out but didn't quite succeed. So, if Daniel had wanted to remain ascended he might of ended up the same way. The way I see it is that he "resigned" rather than getting "fired". The fact that he didn't remember anything about who he was for awhile was probably their punishing him a little.
5)I didn't have a problem with Skaara's ascension, because he had experienced alot of things in his life as well as learning alot from Daniel. Also, he died defending his friends which is a very noble way to go. However, deeds are not a requisite for ascension nor can any of the ascended folk actually do it for them. According to Meridian, Oma couldn't do it for him only show him the way. Also, she told him he had to release his burden, but I don't think she meant his will to live. What that burden was, I don't really know.
6)All of the Abydonians ascending was a little much, but then again it may not have been all of them or it might not have been them at all. Think about it, after Anubis hit the pyramid with the weapon it destroyed the Stargate. Why make a new one a day later? Skaara wanted to let them know that he was alright, and he may have created the illusion that they were all there with him for their sake since they all felt responsible for it. I would have to watch it again, but I don't think they really say that ALL of the Abydonians ascended beyond the few in the temple that they showed empty clothes for.
7)I too was disappointed that they didn't have anything different with Daniel after he returned to human form other that temporary amnesia. I think it would have made for some interesting plot twists.

Anyway, those are my points. If you are still reading this than I apologize for the long post, lol. Thanks for reading.

[GateGeak]

Idea for a (cop-out) series final

Why not have the entire earth population ascend. Well maybe filter out the bad eggs. After all it was easy enough for all the abydonians to do so, then earth won't have to worry about any bad guys.

[ShadowMaat]

Idea for a (cop-out) series final

Why not have the entire earth population ascend. Well maybe filter out the bad eggs. After all it was easy enough for all the abydonians to do so, then earth won't have to worry about any bad guys.

There ya go. That way I can have my "SG-1 loses and everybody dies" scenario but everyone sorta wins, too.

And then the show gets renewed for another season and you find out it was all just a dream... hehe

[DownFallAngel]

Or they are all inside the gamekeepers devices still.

[SenorCardgage]

I was VERY surprised to hear Daniel offering this as a way out for Jack. As much as I love Jack, he isn't really on the road to *enlightment* just yet and I felt Daniel would have known this was not something his friend Jack would do. It just really felt *out of character* for Daniel to offer it up as a choice. And yes it did take away from the *coolness* if you will of the whole idea of ascension.

It was the complete opposite for me. It's in that episode I think we really see the bond between Jack and Daniel. We see the resolution of the first encounter with Jack and Daniel. Daniel said himself that he couldn't have asended without Jack. It could be the ultimate repayment of a friend to have Jack ascend.

Whether or not Daniel thought Jack wanted to, he wanted to show Jack that he was capable of it if he wanted to.

[Lugal]

I don't think Ascension in of itself has weakened the show, although it has been misused. I think the concept is cool. Since they seemed to have based it on Buddhism and Nirvana, I think one of Oma's points was that if anyone chooses they can ascend. They talk about releasing burdens, which is similar to Nirvana, which a Buddhist friend told me means the "fire has gone out." They basically have to drop their attachment to the world and events in their lives and just be. Bray'tac admitted he was not ready to do that (although he deserves to Ascend) I don't think Ascension has any moral dimension to it, as proved by Anubis.
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Daniel has shown he is not ready to completely give up his attachment to the world, by the way he tried to help Jack in Abyss and Teal'c in Changling and finally in Full Circle which crossed the line and got himself kicked out.

Abyss - I thouhgt it was cool he tried to help Jack ascend that proves what Oma said that anyone can, if they give up their attachments (a better word then burden IMO). We all knew Jack would not give up his attachment to the world, but it was the only way Daniel could help him.

Full Circle - I agree with others who thought it was a cop out for the people of Abydos to ascend.

As for Anubis, I think it was his host who after hundreds possibly thousands of years trapped in his own body gave up his attachments to the world and ascended and Anubis went with them and the Ancients could not separate the two so Anubis is trapped between planes.

[keppiezbt]

see this is what i dont get from people.......everyone massively speculates.

who says the ancients were moving to a higher plane? maybe they were just trying to escape the plague.

also, no where on the show has any said you have to be "qaulified" to asend. you just need to know how. the buddhist monk in maternal instinct would teach anyone the path. daniel even says in full circle oma is an outcast for helping other ascend. so the assumption that by ascending the aboydonians makes ascension weak, i think is a poor one. i personally enjoyed seeing them ascend.

they never say you need to be special to ascend, you simply just need to figure out how to do it.

[roswellgray]

see this is what i dont get from people.......everyone massively speculates.

who says the ancients were moving to a higher plane? maybe they were just trying to escape the plague.

also, no where on the show has any said you have to be "qaulified" to asend. you just need to know how. the buddhist monk in maternal instinct would teach anyone the path. daniel even says in full circle oma is an outcast for helping other ascend. so the assumption that by ascending the aboydonians makes ascension weak, i think is a poor one. i personally enjoyed seeing them ascend.

they never say you need to be special to ascend, you simply just need to figure out how to do it.

BRAVO. bravo! Someday in the far far future when humanity learns to ascend ala the Ancients and the Vorlons I'll hope we'll be long past the pathetic "YOU're not WORTHY!!!!" "NO, YOU're not worthy!!!!!"

bulls**t and it will all be about your intellect and your knowledge.

[Skydiver]

Ascension as a general idea isn't all that bad. when they wrote daniel out, it waas a great way eliminate the character while not killing him off. It must have seemed better than the alternatives at the time
daniel quitting
daniel going missing

when he came back, eh that was cheesy. Yes, it's what the writers originally had in mind...but since his whole glowhood has been glossed over, it's nothing more than a trite plot device.

daniel offering it to jack, that was bad too. first of all, ascension isn't a gift for the worthy but something anyone can do???? yeah, that's special.
not to mention the fact that, to jack, living forever while permnantly having his hands tied would be a fate worse than death.

then came full circle. yes, more cheese than a wisconsin cheese fest. eh, let's drag out a happy ending no matter how trite and silly it is. whey don't they just get a sarc for the infirmary????

evidentally now, anyone and his brother can get the glowies.

now, all of a sudden, ascension isn't special inthe slightest. it's like a happy meal toy, anyone can get one

[Daveo]

In some ways definately yes, it has been abused. I dont think that it was mis-used in abyss though, i think o'neil demonstarted that assention could not be for everyone. I do think that ascending a whole planet is really bad and has cheapened the show, its unfortunate but hopefully with anubis gone the can get the show back on track.

[Hathor999]

there was a story a while back on gateworld about reclaiming death and the effect ascension has had on the show. So what does everyone think? has ascension taken the drama away? when ascension was first introduce i thought it was awesome. when daniel ascended it was cool because we were losing a beloved character but we werent at the same time, it just fit that daniel would be someone that ascended. i think the first misuse of ascension was in "Abyss"
Do i need spoiler space for season six? ill put it in to be safe
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i think that abyss is when ascension first went to far, as soon as daniel suggested it as a way out for jack ascension lost all its "coolness" it was no longer a journey to another plane of existence and understand but now simply a way to cheat death. Ascension is only supposed to be for people who have reached a state of enlightenment to move beyond the physical plane.

In "full circle" having the ancients turn out to be the ascended (something i suspected a while before) was an awesome plot twist but i wish they hadnt have had the reason behind their ascension be because of a plague wiping them out. it further trivialized ascension. it should have been that the ancients ascended because as a race the had started to reach the highest level of enlightenment possible on this plane of existence.

Skaara's ascension was ok because i think that after everything he went through and with as good and caring a person he was, ascension was acceptable.

the whole population of abydos ascending however tottaly destroyed all the menace and drama of anubis. it showed that while the ascended arnt going to directly interfere with stopping him (even though they created him basically) they are going to clean up after him if he is gonna use ancient technology. so what does everyone else think?

I don´t think that the way as it dealt with ascension has weakend the show. I even think that we know now that ascencion has not very much to do with "enlightment" makes it more interesting for me.
I don´t see the ascendet ancients as a kind of higher beeings. They may beliefe that themself (like the Goa´uld do) but they are not. They are just different. It´s a little bit as in Babylon 5 with the Vorlons and the Shadows for me. They were both very powerfull but still living beeings. No gods, demons or angels even if they tried to make the younger races beliefe it. I feeling somewhat reliefed that the ancients are shown now no longer as all-knowing, wise, wonderfull superbeeings because I felt always unconfortable with this concept.