Is morally acceptable to kill an infant Goa'uld?

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

why should we have a war with them?

They can't guarantee that no goa'uld will rise again. I'm sure they're might be jaffas, who are eager to have the old ways back, including goa'uld. It's easier to wipe the goa'uld out of existence than risk any potential future conflict with them.

What's the point. You wipe out the remainder of the wild Goa'uld on the planet you wipe out the Jaffa's means of survival. I'd imagine they'd be pissed off about that and come gunning for earth. Instead you have a situation where the Goa'uld are policed by the Jaffa and the Jaffa can use the Goa'uld. Everyone's happy and I hardly think that any Jaffa would want to go back to the old ways when the only Goa'uld they saw was lived in some swamps like an oversized eel. Hardly very god like, and the old ways require Goa'uld posing like a god which is hard to do when your dealing with a bunch of swamp creatures.

[g.o.d]

Is it possible that the goa'uld, as we know them now, are nothing more than victims of someone else's experiments and tests? That what we have now are the descendants of victims of some other race's genetic manipulations? So you wanna murder them and kill them all off because someone else, thousands/millions of years futzed with them? how do we know that the quest for power isn't the result of generations of subjugation and slavery?

I can live with that

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I can live with that

I can live with wiping out the Goa'uld outside their homeworld. Their a threat the rest of the galaxy and other sentient beings, and like the wraith they need to be removed. Indeed it seems pretty clear that at this point in time in the Stargate verse they have been hunting down the remaining Goa'uld. However wiping out Goa'uld on their homeplanet though isn't beneficial, it makes a new enemy in the form of the Jaffa, one that can easily be avoided by letting the Jaffa exploit the Goa'uld. Also it would be very ironic revenge for the Jaffa.

[Skydiver]

You don't murder them, as much as you level the playing field

how have the goa'uld gotten so powerful and ruthless? by living for hundreds/thousands of years. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

You capture the goa'uld, submit them to the tollan triad (or a variation there of where the host is allowed to speak free of the snake so their opinion can be heard). If the human wishes to remain a host, you imprison them on a planet with plenty of food and water, but no sarcophagi, no new hosts, nothing to extend their current host's lifespan beyond what it is already.

they can live there forever.

if the host doesn't want to have their snake,t he snake is taken out and returned to it's 'natural' environment....ie tossed into a fresh water lake

let them return to their original standard of living.

the other way is to control the queens. no queens, zero or negative population growth. no new hosts, no sarcopagi and let them live - and die - a normal life span.

the goa'uld have risen to their power through too long lives. shorten the lives and you shorten their ability to effect others

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

You don't murder them, as much as you level the playing field

how have the goa'uld gotten so powerful and ruthless? by living for hundreds/thousands of years. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

You capture the goa'uld, submit them to the tollan triad (or a variation there of where the host is allowed to speak free of the snake so their opinion can be heard). If the human wishes to remain a host, you imprison them on a planet with plenty of food and water, but no sarcophagi, no new hosts, nothing to extend their current host's lifespan beyond what it is already.

they can live there forever.

if the host doesn't want to have their snake,t he snake is taken out and returned to it's 'natural' environment....ie tossed into a fresh water lake

let them return to their original standard of living.

the other way is to control the queens. no queens, zero or negative population growth. no new hosts, no sarcopagi and let them live - and die - a normal life span.

the goa'uld have risen to their power through too long lives. shorten the lives and you shorten their ability to effect others

Isn't that a moot point now, most of the Goa'uld are dead, wiped out by their war with us, the Jaffa and the Tok'ra, or killed by vengeful ex subjects. If they're are any remaining larval Goa'uld I imagine they will find themselves in a Jaffa's pouch, when they mature I imagine the best they can hope for is being tossed back into the waters of the original Goa'uld homeworld, though I doubt the Jaffa would be that generous to them.

[LtKatia]

In the season one SG1 episode Bloodlines Daniel and Sam come across an unguarded container filled with larval Goa'uld, they take one and as they are about to leave, Daniel considers killing the rest, Sam says if he did he would be no better then they are and they should just leave. Then Daniel turns around and shoots the container, killing all the Goa'uld.

The Goa'uld would have one day gone on to possess a host but in their larval stage they are helpless and technically have done nothing wrong.

Was he right to kill them?

No, I am convinced he was wrong to kill them. While the Goa'uld have genetic memory they are sometimes able to see past them (Egeria and other Tok'ra who were former Goa'uld). Daniel killed infants who had not done anything, and who might never do anything wrong. At this stage they really were innocent children. You can't kill someone from the assumption that they will probably do evil in the future!

[maylet]

No, I am convinced he was wrong to kill them. While the Goa'uld have genetic memory they are sometimes able to see past them (Egeria and other Tok'ra who were former Goa'uld). Daniel killed infants who had not done anything, and who might never do anything wrong. At this stage they really were innocent children. You can't kill someone from the assumption that they will probably do evil in the future!

But they will do evil, it's who they are. If Daniel knew that MAYBE (and is a huge maybe) some of them would one day become Tok'ra I don't think he would have done it, but he knew (and we all know) that they we're going to be evil just as all those before them. So in the end he did right, protected the galaxy for more Goa'uld and even safe innocent people from being host to something so horrible as a Goa'uld.

[Petra]

Bear in mind that this was early SG-1. At this point (both for the characters and the viewers), the Goa'uld were only known to be extremely evil - there had been no contact (that I can remember) with the Tok'ra, with Yu (a moderate and approachable Goa'uld in the grand scheme of things), or even Ba'al. There hadn't even been any mention as far as I know that the Sarcophagus had a big hand in producing the genocidal tyrannical tendencies of the snakeheads, and as for the effect on the Jaffa, they were still regarded as the threat, the enemy, there was no real hint of a Jaffa rebellion this early in the series, therefore anything that affected the numbers of Jaffa would likely have been perceived as a good thing.

I think we are forgetting something. As you said, this is early SG-1 - middle of the first season. At this point the SGC - Daniel and Sam included - didn't know about Goa'uld genetic memory. That came later, although I don't remember specific season. So at that point in time Daniel really didn't know anything about the Goa'uld apart from the fact that he met Ra and Apophis and they were both responsible for killing/kidnapping his loved ones. I very much doubt he considered galactic ramifications of his actions or even gave some thought to all the pros and cons. He simply saw an opportunity to get revenge for loss of Sha're and he took it. That's all.

Personally, I always viewed Egeria as an aberration, a freak mutation that produced a compassionate Goa'uld - it certainly seems out of the ordinary for the goa'uld as a species, who are extremely territorial, competitive and aggressive. From this perspective, and the lack of evidence for "Goa'uld gone good" cases, it's probably fair to say the chances of the larval goa'ulds maturing to become anything other than 'evil' were slim, at best.

I don't think she was an aberration, because how then will you explain Kianna (?), Jonas' girlfriend from Fallout? She wasn't a Tok'ra, she had no connections to them and seem to not hold them in high esteem - and yet she was capable of falling in love with a human and ultimately sacrificing her life to save others. Not your typical Goa'uld huh? And then there's Yu. So this means that not all Goa'uld are 100% evil.

That's why I think what Daniel did was morally wrong. He had no way of knowing that these larvas are sure to become evil, power-thirsty, megalomaniac mass-murderers. He simply murdered sentient beings because of his personal hatred towards their species. It may have been practical (and was, in light of what we learned about the Goa'uld later) but it wasn't morally right.

[aretood2]

But terms like good and evil are relative. No one sees themselves as "evil," we view Nazis as the most morally repugnant group, but from their point of view they were the moral ones and it was us who were the evil. While we might see the Goa'uld as evil, in their eyes they'd probably see themselves as in the right and their actions necessary for their continued survival.

Incorrect...or at least its only half the picture. The minute a Nazi would even beat up a Nazi child he would be seen as a monster. They knew that what they were doing was wrong, why else did they feel the need to dehumanize their victims? If they thought it moral there would me no need for dehumanization. Consequently the Goa'uld did more than just "Dehumanize" their hosts.

They put themselves not just above them, but decided that they where gods with every right to do as they pleased with others that were not of their kind. They too knew that it was wrong, why else was Anubis banished by the other System Lords?

So yes, they were/are evil. But I must say that there is no such thing as morally killing someone that is defenseless like Daniel did. But do I condemn him? Not really, actually no. However I do think it is more so wrong to eliminate the supply of symbiotes to the Jaffa.

What choice would a Tok'ra have made in place of Daniel?

[angela21]

As many people have said this was very early in the series and I think Daniel was still coming to terms with what had happened to Sha're and that was a huge factor in him deciding to kill the young Goa'uld but I wonder if he would have done the same thing in that situation later on in the series?

[aretood2]

As many people have said this was very early in the series and I think Daniel was still coming to terms with what had happened to Sha're and that was a huge factor in him deciding to kill the young Goa'uld but I wonder if he would have done the same thing in that situation later on in the series?

I guess it would depend...would he even waste his time? Like you said, he was still coming to terms with the whole Share thing.

[Skydiver]

a tok'ra never would have shot the tanks

a) they have no guns
b) they live in a world of secrecy and the need to fly under the radar. what he did alerted the whole compound to 'heretics' being in their midst. a tok'ra would never draw attention to themselves that way.

at that point in time in the show, ALL they knew about the goa'uld were 'they took humans as hosts and crawled into their heads and took over their lives'

that's it.

they didn't know about system lords (that was in season 3, Seth), they didn't know about genetic memory (not sure when but i'm gonna think they got that from the tok'ra somehow, so at least middle season two), they didn't even know that goa'uld were necessary for a jaffa's life (teal'c was trying to keep ry'ac from being implanted to keep him from being enslaved, the whole 'must take a snake or die' was cooked up in Birthright when the girls got sick and Ishta's women killed male jaffa to steal their symbiotes)

so what he knew was that they were creatures that kidnapped humans and took them to host.

something these goa'uld obviously hadn't done (heck, they were barely old enough to keep a jaffa alive) and something these goa'uld wouldn't have been able to do for years. He had no idea who or what the goa'uld would grow up to be. what he did was, effectively, kill a litter of pit bull puppies because, don't you know, ALL pit bulls are vicious killers and one had attacked his wife just last month'

Then, add to that that his little shooting spree alerted the jaffa to their presence and almost got the whole team captured/killed.

It may have felt right to him, and i'm not condemning him, but it was unwise, morally and especially tactically

[Livestick]

I think we are forgetting something. As you said, this is early SG-1 - middle of the first season. At this point the SGC - Daniel and Sam included - didn't know about Goa'uld genetic memory.

Yes they did.

From The Enemy Within:

TEAL'C: A Goa'uld is born with all the knowledge of all Goa'uld's that came before it.

DANIEL: Genetic memory. That's amazing.

[angela21]

Yes they did.

From The Enemy Within:

Oh, didn't realise that they knew about the Goa'uld having genetic memory at this stage.

This knowledge may have contributed to Daniel killing them, he probably assumed they would all grow up to be evil tyrants.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Incorrect...or at least its only half the picture. The minute a Nazi would even beat up a Nazi child he would be seen as a monster. They knew that what they were doing was wrong, why else did they feel the need to dehumanize their victims? If they thought it moral there would me no need for dehumanization. Consequently the Goa'uld did more than just "Dehumanize" their hosts.

They put themselves not just above them, but decided that they where gods with every right to do as they pleased with others that were not of their kind. They too knew that it was wrong, why else was Anubis banished by the other System Lords?

So yes, they were/are evil. But I must say that there is no such thing as morally killing someone that is defenseless like Daniel did. But do I condemn him? Not really, actually no. However I do think it is more so wrong to eliminate the supply of symbiotes to the Jaffa.

What choice would a Tok'ra have made in place of Daniel?

They might be evil, but in their eyes they are not. Some Nazi's might have had doubts but there were plenty who didn't, There were hardcore groups of SS who were willing to die fanatically, to be part of the defence of Nazism. They might be evil, but no one goes out and decides "oh I think I'll be evil." They might commit evil acts in your eyes, in the eyes of many, but in their point of view they're in the right.