General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[ShadowMaat]

Sam's "inner life" is all about her sex life. Gods forbid she should have any actual hobbies or outside interests or, hell, people who are just friends or former classmates/coworkers. It's all about her angsting over the search for love. Or at least a good ****.

[dipsofjazz]

Sam's "inner life" is all about her sex life. Gods forbid she should have any actual hobbies or outside interests or, hell, people who are just friends or former classmates/coworkers. It's all about her angsting over the search for love. Or at least a good ****.

I have to agree with this. I am a shipper, but I can't stand what the writers have done to Sam. She is a great soldier/scientist, but all the writers can do is have every man/alien fall for Sam. I was also surprised at 'Grace', as I'd never thought of her 'needing' a man to fulfill her life. I won't even start with the Pete/Jack storylines, as I know that, IMHO, the writers cannot write ship to save themselves!
As I've said, I'm a shipper, but all the writers had to do, for me, was have Sam and Jack say something/hold hands/anything 'shippy' in Threads...something to give the 'closure' that the shippers want, and we all could get on with our lives and the ship aspect could have been laid to rest.Just my OHO.

[Dani347]

I see Sam slightly differently. She's a female in a male dominated, and make that a jealously male dominated, culture. She's succeeded with honors and is where she wants to be. But Sam's a person with a dark side that, like others, is not always visible. True, I'm inferring this because the writers gave her military career as a fait accompli; the only struggle apparently was besting Jack O'Neill at their first meeting. In Prodigy,

Spoiler:

she goes to bat for Haley, and the CO asks if the girl reminds Sam of herself. He's referring to the chip on Haley's shoulder, her need to be the best, etc.

. Not a lot, but in the setting we are given, there's something there.

Sad that the writers didn't have time to scope Sam's past the way we got Daniel (kicked out of the University for his theories), Teal'c (his father's death, family outcasts, training with Bra'Tac) and Jack (black ops past, death of his son).

Just sayin, everyone (male, female, alien) has insecurities. Who knows when they will out? Sam's inner life has been limited by the writers but I don't think Grace was such a leap; late but not a leap. Boring would seem to me to be the always right, ever and only dutiful Sam. Just MHO.

I'm not saying Sam didn't have any insecurities. I would love it if they explored her as a woman in the military. But, I don't equate exploring her female side with ship. They did explore Daniel as a civilian. They explored Teal'c as an alien. Maybe not a lot with Teal'c, but it was there throughout the episodes. There was Sam's relationship with Jacob before he became a Tok'ra. Secrets is one of my favorite episodes for Daniel and Sam. When I say Sam was the least angsty, I don't mean she's happy go lucky Mary Poppins who's always right. Her problems are much more easy for the average Joe to relate to, imo. She lost a parent. That's something that a lot of people can relate to. Unlike seeing your parents crushed in front of you. She had a strained relationship with her dad. Again, a lot of people can relate. Not too many people can really relate to having their child accidently kill themselves with their gun. She's a woman in a male oriented job. I don't think they explored that nearly enough. And, well, frankly I'm scared of how they would have. AT had to tell them to write her the way they would write the men and let her put in the femininity. Seems their ideas of what a woman is didn't sit right with the actual woman. But, back to my point, women can relate to that, even if they aren't themselves in a male dominated job. But, your average Stargate watcher probably can't relate to being enslaved for thousands of years.

I've never doubted Sam's humanity, her womanhood, her fallibility. I just don't see why there's this idea that she's lacking in any of these characteristics, and why the only way to show them is through ship. And, I can't imagine the same concerns being given for any of the men in a similar situation. The closest I've seen is "isn't it time Daniel got some loving" (ugh, I think I'm going to be sick). And, this is usually because of wanting to see Sarah Gardener again, or recently wanting something to start up between him and Vala. But, I've never seen anyone say, "Hey, we've explored Daniel the scholar and Daniel's soldierly side. Now, lets see him as a man" I've never seen anyone say, "Well, it's a good thing Ish'ta was created. I love Teal'c the alien, but I want to know Teal'c the man." Or, even, "Man, why won't they just let Jack and Sam get together, because I'm really interested in seeing the man in Jack." Or substitute the word human. But, that keeps coming up for Sam. Without ship, do people honestly see Sam as a robot with no life?

[Traveler Enroute1]

I have to agree with this. I am a shipper, but I can't stand what the writers have done to Sam. She is a great soldier/scientist, but all the writers can do is have every man/alien fall for Sam. I was also surprised at 'Grace', as I'd never thought of her 'needing' a man to fulfill her life. I won't even start with the Pete/Jack storylines, as I know that, IMHO, the writers cannot write ship to save themselves!
As I've said, I'm a shipper, but all the writers had to do, for me, was have Sam and Jack say something/hold hands/anything 'shippy' in Threads...something to give the 'closure' that the shippers want, and we all could get on with our lives and the ship aspect could have been laid to rest.Just my OHO.

Again, I see Sam as having had normal, human misgivings about the course of her life. That, at one time, made me think of her as weak, too. I don't anymore. But I agree that as written, the ship the series gave us has never been given full attention. So at this stage, I'm willing to resolve the ship by Sam resolving there's NO ship; Jack won't leave the service (still battling the politicos for full support of SGC) and she's where she needs to be, too. Maybe a scene where she's seen making That Call or finishing it. Sam definitely should do the thing, no inferences or vagueness. Cut it. * *

Just sayin', a ship doesn't always work out. Problem here: it isn't anywhere and it should be one way or the other. MHO. <wow, that was hard to say>

[majorsal]

As I've said, I'm a shipper, but all the writers had to do, for me, was have Sam and Jack say something/hold hands/anything 'shippy' in Threads...something to give the 'closure' that the shippers want, and we all could get on with our lives and the ship aspect could have been laid to rest.Just my OHO.

i can only speak for myself, but i'm *never* going to get enough of sam/jack. meaning, if they'd showed sam and jack holding hands, etc, in 'threads', it would have given me the impression they were together as a couple. but would that *really* have satisfied me? no. why? because i want to *see* them as a couple a LOT of times. years of waiting adds to that desire.

i hear some shippers say that all they'd need is to see a scene like you mentioned for 'threads', and then they could move on and let the show move on with other stories. i couldn't do that. it's great in theory, but i'd *always* want *more*. and doesn't that apply to any storyline a fan loves? you want more.

i think the only closure the hand holding scene would give me is that i'd know that sam and jack closed one chapter of their relay (will they/won't they) only to open another as a couple.



sally

[Dani347]

I just wonder will it ever be satisfactory. Anything beyond the "not exactly" and people who think like me will be disappointed. But, there may be some anti-shippers who would prefer to see a tossed off line where Sam mentions she's going to see Jack for the weekend, as long as that's it, give the shippers a bone and never mention it again. Some shippers may feel the same way. "We got closure and it went our way." On the other hand, some shippers may feel that one line isn't enough because it wouldn't be realistic for Sam to only mention Jack one time. So, that would mean they'd have to sprinkle hints throughout, which would irritate me, and since I've been irritated this long I think I deserve a break And, would shippers really be satisfied with seeing only one half of the romance you've invested all these years in? I don't think that would satisfy me.

The problems started when tptb decided to start up a ship that couldn't go anywhere unless one of the pair was gone. And, that strikes me as a pretty dismal way to have a ship. I really don't see how this could turn into anything but frustration for a large group of people.

majorsal:

no. why? because i want to *see* them as a couple a LOT of times. years of waiting adds to that desire.

As you see.

[dipsofjazz]

Again, I see Sam as having had normal, human misgivings about the course of her life. That, at one time, made me think of her as weak, too. I don't anymore. But I agree that as written, the ship the series gave us has never been given full attention. So at this stage, I'm willing to resolve the ship by Sam resolving there's NO ship; Jack won't leave the service (still battling the politicos for full support of SGC) and she's where she needs to be, too. Maybe a scene where she's seen making That Call or finishing it. Sam definitely should do the thing, no inferences or vagueness. Cut it. * *

Just sayin', a ship doesn't always work out. Problem here: it isn't anywhere and it should be one way or the other. MHO. <wow, that was hard to say>

I just wish they'd finished it, one way or another. I, of course, would like it if they'd just said that they were together. I know that's not what you want, but whatever they did, at least it would have been finished and we could all get back to watching the show without this hanging around. The writers leave so many stories unfinished, but this one is so big, and causes such a divide in fandom, that a conclusion is all that's needed for us all to sit back and watch the new show without this niggling away in the background.

[dipsofjazz]

i can only speak for myself, but i'm *never* going to get enough of sam/jack. meaning, if they'd showed sam and jack holding hands, etc, in 'threads', it would have given me the impression they were together as a couple. but would that *really* have satisfied me? no. why? because i want to *see* them as a couple a LOT of times. years of waiting adds to that desire.

i hear some shippers say that all they'd need is to see a scene like you mentioned for 'threads', and then they could move on and let the show move on with other stories. i couldn't do that. it's great in theory, but i'd *always* want *more*. and doesn't that apply to any storyline a fan loves? you want more.

i think the only closure the hand holding scene would give me is that i'd know that sam and jack closed one chapter of their relay (will they/won't they) only to open another as a couple.



sally

Sally, I would love for there to be lots of ship, but I have come to the conclusion that these writers cannot write ship, and are far too afraid of writing any sort of ship that we'd like. This is why I would be happy to just know, in canon, that Sam and Jack are together. My imagination will fill in the rest, as I doubt we'll ever get anything on the show to satisfy us.(It would also cause far too much unrest in the general fandom to have lots of ship).

[Uber]

I just wish they'd finished it, one way or another. I, of course, would like it if they'd just said that they were together. I know that's not what you want, but whatever they did, at least it would have been finished and we could all get back to watching the show without this hanging around. The writers leave so many stories unfinished, but this one is so big, and causes such a divide in fandom, that a conclusion is all that's needed for us all to sit back and watch the new show without this niggling away in the background.

Exactly. Whether or not people saw the chemistry between them (I did) or thought they should end up together or not (I do), the fact is they started this story and should finish it...especially when it involves a story arc that carried through several seasons. We saw the Jaffa freedom story lead to something...we saw the Goa'uld and Replicators stories lead to something...a grand finale for all...so let's have it for this story arc too.

I know some people don't care one way or the other about this issue...I do because I've been following it for years as have a lot of other people. So since they chose to set it up so there was a potential future for them (i.e., Sam did NOT get married to Pete and Kerry dumped Jack because of his feelings for Sam), then why not give the audience a little follow up on this matter? A line of dialogue here and there? Otherwise, why did they choose to focus on this story if it wasn't leading anywhere? And why not have Sam married off to Pete? That would have effectively ended the "ship debate."

But since they intentionally left the door open...they wrote it, they focused on it, etc. then give us bits here and there for continuity's sake and also for the sake of people like me who have been hoping for some kind of resolution. I not expecting a cheesy gateroom wedding...just a nod here and there especially when RDA does cameos. The truth is no matter what they do or don't do, someone's going to be carping. So why would that group of people be the ones who essentially got that first step in Threads? As for people who don't want anything between them, well I think they're already ticked because the writers left the door open for a future between them.

And as for the women tend to emote more than men comment I made, I'll stand by that...women do tend to emote more than men. There's nothing negative about that statement. That doesn't mean men don't feel anything or don't get emotional of course...just that women tend to be more emotive than men are.

Mary Beth

[Traveler Enroute1]

I'm not saying Sam didn't have any insecurities. I would love it if they explored her as a woman in the military. But, I don't equate exploring her female side with ship. They did explore Daniel as a civilian. They explored Teal'c as an alien. Maybe not a lot with Teal'c, but it was there throughout the episodes. There was Sam's relationship with Jacob before he became a Tok'ra. Secrets is one of my favorite episodes for Daniel and Sam. When I say Sam was the least angsty, I don't mean she's happy go lucky Mary Poppins who's always right. Her problems are much more easy for the average Joe to relate to, imo. She lost a parent. That's something that a lot of people can relate to. Unlike seeing your parents crushed in front of you. She had a strained relationship with her dad. Again, a lot of people can relate. Not too many people can really relate to having their child accidently kill themselves with their gun. She's a woman in a male oriented job. I don't think they explored that nearly enough. And, well, frankly I'm scared of how they would have. AT had to tell them to write her the way they would write the men and let her put in the femininity. Seems their ideas of what a woman is didn't sit right with the actual woman. But, back to my point, women can relate to that, even if they aren't themselves in a male dominated job. But, your average Stargate watcher probably can't relate to being enslaved for thousands of years.

I've never doubted Sam's humanity, her womanhood, her fallibility. I just don't see why there's this idea that she's lacking in any of these characteristics, and why the only way to show them is through ship. And, I can't imagine the same concerns being given for any of the men in a similar situation. The closest I've seen is "isn't it time Daniel got some loving" (ugh, I think I'm going to be sick). And, this is usually because of wanting to see Sarah Gardener again, or recently wanting something to start up between him and Vala. But, I've never seen anyone say, "Hey, we've explored Daniel the scholar and Daniel's soldierly side. Now, lets see him as a man" I've never seen anyone say, "Well, it's a good thing Ish'ta was created. I love Teal'c the alien, but I want to know Teal'c the man." Or, even, "Man, why won't they just let Jack and Sam get together, because I'm really interested in seeing the man in Jack." Or substitute the word human. But, that keeps coming up for Sam. Without ship, do people honestly see Sam as a robot with no life?

That's the point I was trying to make, *Dani347*. Sam had none of those histories. The men, as you pointed out, had history of emotional upheavals AND ships. Sam mostly had the ship part. I'm only saying that I don't see her only in terms of Jack but what else did they give her (for the longest time) except a ship? Never a robot, yet isn't perfection a rather humanless state? Maybe you never doubted her "humanity, her womanhood, her fallibility" (and neither did I) but as played out it just isn't a stretch to me that this was what the writers fell back on. For my money, the implied ship worked, it was just never allowed to go anywhere.

Just sayin', I feel the series PTB didn't count on how popular the Sam Carter the soldier/scientist would be. From the beginning it was Sam's brains and bravery that defined her, then when the attraction between Sam and Jack was played up, some focus shifted to that. I certainly never watched the show for the ship! Yeah, I liked it but the show and the Team brought me back each week. In my post before this, I suggest that the way to set this all right side up is to have Sam break the ship, clearly and finally. It'll break my heart but without RDA, well, there just isn't the will there anymore to tie up things. Sam doesn't have to be stop-punched like our girl Elizabeth Weir; she's our go-to gal, so let her go-to this stalemate and break it. MHO hope it makes sense.

[Dani347]

But, seriously, would you (general shipper you) be satisfied with ship with one of the pair gone? Lets say RDA doesn't want to make little guest appearances or even record his voice so there can be a two way conversation over the phone. And, no speculation as to his motives or character, just supposing you only get to see it from Sam's side. Would episode after episode of Sam saying, "hmm, uh-huh, well, Love you, Jack" and hanging up the phone, or Daniel asking Sam what she and Jack are doing on their vacation time, or Teal'c telling Sam to say hello to Jack for him, or Mitchell commenting, or anything like that be enough, if you never got to see them together?
Various people:

I'm only saying that I don't see her only in terms of Jack but what else did they give her (for the longest time) except a ship? Never a robot, yet isn't perfection a rather humanless state?

Hmm, never saw perfection in Sam. Yes, that would have made her boring. And, for me, the solution would be to give her more than ship if that's all they've given her. Not to keep giving her more ship. And, like I said, while she didn't have the extreme types of tragedies that the others had, she had her share. Moving and dramatic stories have been made over the loss of a parent, or the rift between a parent and child. Feeling the need to prove yourself? Also ripe for drama. There was nothing lacking in Sam as a character that needed ship to fix it.

As for people who don't want anything between them, well I think they're already ticked because the writers left the door open for a future between them.

Hmm, trying not to be rude, but I can't understand this statement. So, because I was irritated before, that makes it jolly well okay that I continue to be irritated? Hey, she's used to not getting her way, so why go to any trouble to make her happy? Or, people who think like me. But, above all, lets make sure the people we've been giving hints to all these years are finally happy. I fully get that people who want ship are going to want ship and will feel cheated to not have things their way. It's human nature. But, to say it makes sense overall that things go a certain way guaranteed to make non shippers unhappy just doesn't sit well with me.

And as for the women tend to emote more than men comment I made, I'll stand by that...women do tend to emote more than men. There's nothing negative about that statement. That doesn't mean men don't feel anything or don't get emotional of course...just that women tend to be more emotive than men are.

If tptb were writing under this assumption, I'd say it was negative. Because that would be writing for a stereotype, not a person. What if all the times they needed someone to emote, they put Sam in because "women emote more"? I think any time you start off with the idea of what "women" or "men" do that makes for poor story telling. It traps you. Plus, going with the idea that women emote more, I frankly find that makes it more dramatic and riveting when men emote. Or, when a character, male or female who isn't known for emoting all the time does. Then, it stands out more.

[dipsofjazz]

I just wonder will it ever be satisfactory. Anything beyond the "not exactly" and people who think like me will be disappointed. But, there may be some anti-shippers who would prefer to see a tossed off line where Sam mentions she's going to see Jack for the weekend, as long as that's it, give the shippers a bone and never mention it again. Some shippers may feel the same way. "We got closure and it went our way." On the other hand, some shippers may feel that one line isn't enough because it wouldn't be realistic for Sam to only mention Jack one time. So, that would mean they'd have to sprinkle hints throughout, which would irritate me, and since I've been irritated this long I think I deserve a break And, would shippers really be satisfied with seeing only one half of the romance you've invested all these years in? I don't think that would satisfy me.

The problems started when tptb decided to start up a ship that couldn't go anywhere unless one of the pair was gone. And, that strikes me as a pretty dismal way to have a ship. I really don't see how this could turn into anything but frustration for a large group of people.

majorsal:


As you see.

Exactly! Instead of Sam saying "not exactly", why couldn't she have just said, "No"? I would think that she was with Jack, anyone else who doesn't like this ship could think she was with the milkman/alien guy/something that needs batteries.. At least we would have an answer, rather than the usual ambiguous lines that we get.

[Traveler Enroute1]

I just wish they'd finished it, one way or another. I, of course, would like it if they'd just said that they were together. I know that's not what you want, but whatever they did, at least it would have been finished and we could all get back to watching the show without this hanging around. The writers leave so many stories unfinished, but this one is so big, and causes such a divide in fandom, that a conclusion is all that's needed for us all to sit back and watch the new show without this niggling away in the background.

NOOOO, I want ship. I just don't see that it will be allowed. TPTB don't see it as important, apparently, so it's just hanging.

Just sayin', if I had my druthers...

[Easter Lily]

I see Sam slightly differently. She's a female in a male dominated, and make that a jealously male dominated, culture. She's succeeded with honors and is where she wants to be. But Sam's a person with a dark side that, like others, is not always visible. True, I'm inferring this because the writers gave her military career as a fait accompli; the only struggle apparently was besting Jack O'Neill at their first meeting. In Prodigy,

Spoiler:

she goes to bat for Haley, and the CO asks if the girl reminds Sam of herself. He's referring to the chip on Haley's shoulder, her need to be the best, etc.

. Not a lot, but in the setting we are given, there's something there.

Is that really a darkside though? She's as far as I know a high achiever... and good on her! She's never really had to prove herself to anyone except for that brief banter with Jack and Kawalsky. Everyone had the highest regard for her even her father with whom she had other personal issues with. For me a person with a darkside is more an individual who constantly grapples with huge moral dilemmas and could easily be the bad guy except for some spark of humanity... anti-heroes... Sam, on the other hand, is really a very decent person who is very self-sufficient or at least portrayed to be self-sufficient. Even in Unnatural Selection... to have to lie to Fifth and then abandon him was heartbreaking for her.

Just sayin, everyone (male, female, alien) has insecurities. Who knows when they will out? Sam's inner life has been limited by the writers but I don't think Grace was such a leap; late but not a leap. Boring would seem to me to be the always right, ever and only dutiful Sam. Just MHO.

I beg to differ. If someone has insecurities they would emerge sooner rather than later. It may take a while but not seven years. Not especially someone living such an intense existence and under so much scrutiny. I admit that Sam Carter isn't a great favourite of mine but Grace wasn't even about a moral dilemma... From where I was sitting, it was just about Sam, with a concussion suddenly thinking that she needed a man. There was never any suggestion before that she was in dire need of male company or she would have any difficulty finding any if she was interested. Now, she's all alone in a ship, having hit her head dreaming of what could have been. I don't buy it.

Then, of course, the pendulum swings to the other extreme... she becomes technobabble Sam... I know us girls have our mood swings but this is nonsensical. A competent female who is obviously able to multitask has no emotional life portrayed unless it has to do with men... That, is boring...

[dipsofjazz]

But, seriously, would you (general shipper you) be satisfied with ship with one of the pair gone? Lets say RDA doesn't want to make little guest appearances or even record his voice so there can be a two way conversation over the phone. And, no speculation as to his motives or character, just supposing you only get to see it from Sam's side. Would episode after episode of Sam saying, "hmm, uh-huh, well, Love you, Jack" and hanging up the phone, or Daniel asking Sam what she and Jack are doing on their vacation time, or Teal'c telling Sam to say hello to Jack for him, or Mitchell commenting, or anything like that be enough, if you never got to see them together?

Well, one has to be pragmatic here. I was really sad with RDA's departure, and I can't see him coming back to the show. I think TPTB could fill in a few gaps very easily with, say, Daniel or Teal'c asking Sam how Jack is settling in with his new job. First of all, it would keep alive the Jack character, who seems to have been forgotten, and it would tell me that Sam and Jack are together. I would love to see them together, but I really don't think I'm ever going to see it, so I'll take whatever I can get. Us shippers have been living on little snippets of ship for nine seasons, so as long as I know, for a fact, that they're together, I can live with that. Did I mention that I'd LOVE to see them actually together?