Homosexual/bisexual characters?

[FallenAngelII]

If you mean those in Irresponsible (Irresistable doesn't count, that was the work of the "love potion"), then I think they were just hero-worshipping him.

EDIT: Fallen, all you've proven is that Hollywood (or Hollywood North) has a double standard with regards to women; they rather have young, pretty ones. This is nothing new (nor is it good).

But that's my whole point. People seem to be denying this is happening. However, it is. Stargate is no better than any other show when it comes to female representation.

In fact, Stargate is much worse when it comes to writing its females.

[Womble]

A majority you say? In what way? A majority of the regulars? A majority of a mix of the regulars and supporting characters? Or a majority of the people who appear on screen?

Regulars in the military:
SG-1: Jack/Cam (they never appeared as regulars simoultaneously, so hey count as only 1), Hammond/Landry (same) and Sam
Atlantis: John, Ford

Regulars not in the military:
SG-1: Daniel/Jonas, Teal'c, Vala
Atlantis: Everyone but John and Ford

Regulars and supporting characters in the military:
SG-1: Jack/Cam, Sam, Hammond/Landry, (now dead) Janet
Atlantis: John, Lorne, Bates, Markham, Ford

Regulars and supporting characters not in the military:
SG-1: Daniel/Jonas, Teal'c, Vala, Carylon (Lam), Kinsey, Maybourne, (as of late) Ba'al, Apophis
Atlantis: Rodney, Elizabeth, Teyla, Ronan, Zelenka, should I go on?

A majority of characters period, especially in the SG-1 (less so in Atlantis). In fact, even many of the aliens encountered are members of their respective militaries.

Some corrections to your list: dr. Lam is military, as was Janet Frasier. Maybourne was NID- formally civilian, but secret services aren't all that far removed from the military in both their function and demographics. Teal'c (and Ronon) are for all practical purposes military (and were military in the cultures of origin).

You have also left out a LOT of prominent male military characters- gen. Hammond, sgt. Siler, Kawalsky, Reynolds, Jacob Carter, Major Davis, Walter Harriman who dials the gate, sgt. Siler, NID's Malcolm Barrett, Caldwell and all other ship commanders, etc.

People onscreen:
SG-1: The Jaffa outnumber any other group of people ever seen on-screen on SG-1

Most of the Jaffa we've seen were soldiers.

Atlantis: Random aliens and scientists

In Atlantis, the Genii we have encountered, for example, were overwhelmingly military men. Other races had plenty of women among them.

Also, name prominent female characters in the military who've ever appeared on the show, ever:
Sam, Hailey, the Za'tarc woman, Janet, Novak, Cadman

Lieutenant Womack on Prometheus (New Order part 2), Erin Gant on Propetheus (Memento), etc.

According to Wikipedia, the USAF consists of 18% women.

Yeeeeeeees, but in what capacity?

Out of USAF pilots, only 4.1 percent are women.

Out of the navigators, 4.8 percent

Getting the picture?

[ShadowMaat]

Annnd all this number-throwing has what to do with having a gay character on Stargate?

If you want to spin numbers, spin them in regards to gay/bi characters on TV. Or specifically for the scifi genre.

[FallenAngelII]

A majority of characters period, especially in the SG-1 (less so in Atlantis). In fact, even many of the aliens encountered are members of their respective militaries.

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about Earth military, not warriors in general. And did you know, a lot of cultures have female warriors?

Some corrections to your list: dr. Lam is military, as was Janet Frasier. Maybourne was NID- formally civilian, but secret services aren't all that far removed from the military in both their function and demographics. Teal'c (and Ronon) are for all practical purposes military (and were military in the cultures of origin).

Janet was in the list. Secret services have nothing to do with the military.

You have also left out a LOT of prominent male military characters- gen. Hammond, sgt. Siler, Kawalsky, Reynolds, Jacob Carter, Major Davis, Walter Harriman who dials the gate, sgt. Siler, NID's Malcolm Barrett, Caldwell and all other ship commanders, etc.

1) Hammond is in there
2) Siler I forgot
3) Kawalsky was in, 6 episodes in total (whereof 4 were alt!Kawalsky). He does not count as a prominent supporting character. Besides, he didn't actually do much in most those episodes. He had his big Hurrah in "Enemy Within".
4) I forgot about Reynolds but he wasn't some kind of bigshot with tons of character development.
5) Jacob Carter retired and went Tok'ra
6) I forgot about Paul
7) Well Walter doesn't actually do anything militaristic.

Ship commanders you say? If we're gonna start namedropping characters who were season-specific/arc-specific or only featured in, like, 5 episodes or less (and count them as supporting characters), I can revise my list.

Most of the Jaffa we've seen were soldiers.

Yes, and? They're part of alien armies, not the Earth army, whose USAF has a 18% ratio of women. The Jaffa apparently have a 0% ratio aside from the Hak'tyl.

In Atlantis, the Genii we have encountered, for example, were overwhelmingly military men. Other races had plenty of women among them.

Still, it does not matter in this conversation. We're discussing the underrepresentation of female soldiers on Earth and on Atlantis.

Lieutenant Womack on Prometheus (New Order part 2), Erin Gant on Propetheus (Memento), etc.

2 episodes and 1 episode? And you call that supporting? I call that a guest star.

Yeeeeeeees, but in what capacity?

Out of USAF pilots, only 4.1 percent are women.

Out of the navigators, 4.8 percent

Getting the picture?

Out of Stargate pilots, 0% are women...

Annnd all this number-throwing has what to do with having a gay character on Stargate?

If you want to spin numbers, spin them in regards to gay/bi characters on TV. Or specifically for the scifi genre.

It's a kinda related discussion wherein we're discussing the PTB's inability to write about anything that isn't identical to what they are - heterosexual white men, which includes, but isn't limited to, women and HBT people.

As for gay-related numbers regarding the show, there are none other than random gay jokes (not offensive ones... but jokes nonetheless). The closest thing we got to a gay thing on Stargate was the alternate Jack/Daniel scene in "200", which was ultimately cut.

[Frostfox]

As for gay-related numbers regarding the show, there are none other than random gay jokes (not offensive ones... but jokes nonetheless). The closest thing we got to a gay thing on Stargate was the alternate Jack/Daniel scene in "200", which was ultimately cut.

And it is so on my wishlist for the extras on the season 10 discs, but I doubt we'll get it, RDA said in the interview that they did it for themselves (but how I love that the whole congregation at the 'wedding' applauded!).

FF

[SG13-NightOps]

Anyway, I think no one has yet mentioned the implied relationship between Ivanova and Talia Winters in Babylon 5.

It was mentioned more than once. I think I mentioned it at least twice ...

ya know what, you're absolutely right !

so I also ask ye, why are there more yanks by far and always more yanks, in a show made by a species where only 5% of us are yanks ? I'm sorry but it's too much for me that there's so many yanks in a show. I want equity. or at least a low enough percentage that it's not noticeable what nation predominates
(and to hell with bush & co. -)

That is really easy to answer.

The military contingent are the USAF and USMC. Its the civilian portion of the expedition that is international.

So we have in the civilian primaries:
Weir - US
McKay - Canada
Zalenka - Czec
Beckett - Scottish
Grodin - English
Then the other mains, still exclusing the USAF
Teyla - Athosian
Ronon - Satedan

That leaves Shep, Ford, Lorne and Caldwell. Out of that, only Shep would count as a main character. Could also count Bates in that.

Chen Xiaoyi appeared in one episode! She does not count!

Actually she was in two. The Scourge and Crusade. She also had more than 3 lines.

Out of Stargate pilots, 0% are women...

Carter is a USAF Pilot.

Carter: Colonel, I logged over 100 hours in enemy airspace during the Gulf War. Is that tough enough for you? Or are we going to have to arm wrestle?

Still, I dont see what any of this has to do with whether or not Stargate is the right place for a homosexual character without starting to offend people.

I mean, as a woman - I ain't complaining about the male/female ratio. It all works very nicely together so what is the actual complaint. Honestly, It would be petty of me to demand more women because its 'not fair'. I don't think its that important. Its a TV show, its for entertainment. If it were a job interview, then I'd be a fuming.

[FallenAngelII]

Actually she was in two. The Scourge and Crusade. She also had more than 3 lines.

She counts as a guest star, not a supporting character. A supporting character has a steady gig on a show.

Carter is a USAF Pilot.

Carter: Colonel, I logged over 100 hours in enemy airspace during the Gulf War. Is that tough enough for you? Or are we going to have to arm wrestle?

I forgot about that since we've never seen her actually fly anything.

Still, I dont see what any of this has to do with whether or not Stargate is the right place for a homosexual character without starting to offend people.

The only people who would be offended by the inclusion of a homosexual character (as long as the character itself isn't offensive) are the people who offend me.

I mean, as a woman - I ain't complaining about the male/female ratio. It all works very nicely together so what is the actual complaint. Honestly, It would be petty of me to demand more women because its 'not fair'. I don't think its that important. Its a TV show, its for entertainment. If it were a job interview, then I'd be a fuming.

We're not demanding more women (well, most of us aren't). I'm simply pointing out the fact that the writers can't even portray women. How the heck are they supposed to portray homosexuality?

[PG15]

I forgot about that since we've never seen her actually fly anything.

Covenant, Season 8.

And Fallen, but she was with O'Neill...same as in Redemption Part 1.

[ParadoxRealities]

I forgot about that since we've never seen her actually fly anything.

actually, we have. covenant's F-302 comes to mind.

Carter is a USAF Pilot.

Carter: Colonel, I logged over 100 hours in enemy airspace during the Gulf War. Is that tough enough for you? Or are we going to have to arm wrestle?

you can be in enemy airspace without being a pilot, ya know.

carter's got senior spings, not wings. that doesn't mean she doesn't know how to fly; obviously, she does. that can happen any number of ways, starting formally at AFA and forward.
pilot demographics are misleading, however. because, until 1993, the field wasn't (officially) entirely open to women ('76-pilot, '77-nav, '93-fighters). other fields are more balanced. heck, they're 12% of air battle managers. (looking for more)

[ShadowMaat]

It's a kinda related discussion wherein we're discussing the PTB's inability to write about anything that isn't identical to what they are - heterosexual white men, which includes, but isn't limited to, women and HBT people.

I thought that was already a given.

As for gay-related numbers regarding the show, there are none other than random gay jokes (not offensive ones... but jokes nonetheless). The closest thing we got to a gay thing on Stargate was the alternate Jack/Daniel scene in "200", which was ultimately cut.

I meant on TV in general or on scifi shows in particular. As far as Stargate is concerned I believe that the only gay content will be in the manner of the occasional "naughty" joke that panders to particular sections of fandom. But sensitivity and depth? If they can't manage it with most of their straight characters, how could they do it with anyone else?

[SG13-NightOps]

She counts as a guest star, not a supporting character. A supporting character has a steady gig on a show.

Yeah, I guess tho the critera you mentioned was more than 3 lines, so I guess that counts her in - somewhere?

I forgot about that since we've never seen her actually fly anything.

She flew an F-302 in Covenant. Think Maxwell Sheffield.

The only people who would be offended by the inclusion of a homosexual character (as long as the character itself isn't offensive) are the people who offend me.

I think I mentioned before that I do know one bisexual person who would find it patronizing because in the end, its not canon on Stargate.

We're not demanding more women (well, most of us aren't). I'm simply pointing out the fact that the writers can't even portray women. How the heck are they supposed to portray homosexuality?

Where they most went wrong with portraying women, IMO, was early Carter. Where everything had to have the "and I'm female too" flag. I have even heard an interview with AT who expressed how uncomfortable it was to have to wave the women's lib flag everytime Carter did everything - so they wrote that bit out. I love that Carter is just 'one of the guys'. Thats all the acceptance I need to see.

but I agree - given the inherant humour of Stargate, any portrayal of a homosexual character would be offensive to everyone!

I dont think they failed so much with women. Carter and Janet were wonderful, strong female leads worthy of being emulated. They are hardly waif-thin that its unhealthy, so they do set at least realistic standard of a healthy woman who looks after herself. Hathor - as much as I know you dont like the episode, is much an episode for women who cant be done in by a pretty face. I mean, I know there was that silly pink mist stuff (honestly, that was so corny), but if it were "that" good a drug, it would have taken over the women's mind too - Like Lucius' did to men in Irresistable (perhaps now they have stuffed up that concept twice, they wont try again - oh please dont try again!).

I think sometimes we set our standards too high. While I know that that can be a good thing, sometimes I think some of us need to first appreciate what we do have.

you can be in enemy airspace without being a pilot, ya know.

Yes - but we know exactly what that line is meant to mean.

[majorsal]

i wouldn't mind them doing a gay character storyline, IF they did it justice. what i saw with willow on buffy was crap (to me). it felt totally forced and only put in to be flashy. (and couldn't they have at least given willow someone ALIVE, instead of the boring/dead/more boring and dead girlfriend they gave her? )

out of the guys, i could see daniel being bi. out of the girls, maybe janet or vala. i don't know why i picked them, but i don't see the others that way.




sally

[SG13-NightOps]

Before I go out for the day, I think its also worth a quick mention that the Pilot of the Daedalus is female. So yeah, even Atlantis has a female pilot.

[FallenAngelII]

Yeah, I guess tho the critera you mentioned was more than 3 lines, so I guess that counts her in - somewhere

Womble claimed Chen Xiaoyu was a recurring character. Two episodes does not a recurring character make.

I think I mentioned before that I do know one bisexual person who would find it patronizing because in the end, its not canon on Stargate.

How would it not be canon if they finally included a HBT-person?[/QUOTE]

[ParadoxRealities]

Yes - but we know exactly what that line is meant to mean.

yeah, well...

so, you can't have a gay/bi character on stargate because it's not part of the canon. it's not part of the canon because there has yet to be a gay/bi character on stargate. uh...huh.
i have two ideas as to plot. but first off, i agree, don't go stereotypical, don't do it just to pander or prove a point. make it logical, sensible.

Passing Reference. any character--probably minor--could say it at any casual time (over a meal, gym, golf) maybe they've got the weekend off.
Shep/McKay/Beckett/anyone:" i've got a date with opposite sex name tonight. whatcha doing?"
gay/bi character: "i've got a date too, with same sex name."
someone: "i've got blank to do./i'm going to..."
<conversation continues>
<something interesting happens. >

the other? some people may mug me for this, but i really wanna see how a gay/bi replicator would play out.