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    #16
    If you're going to discuss Sam, you might be better off ignoring Grace (713). Also, when you reference the "reproductive organs" scene from Children of the Gods (101), you could also bring up the scene in Moebius (819) that satirises how truly terrible the line was.

    Another possibly interesting aspect could be how the writers deal with relationships on the show, that kind of one-off thing that you never hear about again, and what differences there may be in the portrayal between male main cast members and female main cast members. Early SG-1 is full of them for the men - Brief Candle (108), Need (205), A Hundred Days (317) etc. - whereas except for The Fitrst Commandment (105) Sam had recurring quasi-relationships with a number of men, like Martouf and Nariim.

    Also Atlantis has had a few so far for the men - Sanctuary (114), The Brotherhood (116), Duet (204) - but none for the women, unless you count Weir and Simon in Rising (101), Home (109), Letters from Pegasus (117) and The Intruder (202). Hm, that's interesting - apparently the women are less likely to have the one-off fling thing.

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      #17
      Wow really interesting thread..

      I was actually reading a magazine article on a similar subject today and it seems to relate...

      The article stated that in todays tv world you find that many of the main males on a sucessful show are portrayed as being flawed...e.g. the characters have a sketchy past..broken marriage...alcoholics ect...(think Rescue Me, L&OVU, NCIS to name a few) and that the women are usually portrayed as being perfect or pretty close to it (Cold Case, even the X Files and NCIS here as well)...e.g. no broken marriages..good work history..modest ect...This seems to be no different from Stargate SG1...All the three main males on the show Jack, Daniel and Teal'c all have broken marriages (in one form or another)...Sam and Janet (as far as i can recall) have never been married.

      I agree with what you said Whistler - "Yes, I was planning on bringing up the infamous quote of "And just because my reproductive organs are on the inside instead of the outside, doesn't mean I can't handle whatever you can handle." I wanted to show how the ptb decided to start off their only female character, and how Sam evolved from that. And why it was not only necessary to have her be military, but also a scientist. Does that personify that ideal that women have to be twice as good as men to get half the respect?"

      This is actually the same in alot of programs...In the X files Mulder was an F.B.I. Agent while Scully was both a scientist and an FBI agent. - In Atlantis Teyla is not only the leader of her people but also a 'warrior'. Sam is a Scientist and a Millitary Officer as well.. Janet was a medical Dr. as well as a Millitary Officer...It does seem to give the impression that women do have to be twice as good or provide two roles to gain the same amount of respect.

      Concerning SG1- it was shown that in an alternate reality where Sam only provided one role as a civillian scientist the team failed to prevent an attack on earth (the episode were Daniel goes through a quantum mirror..sorry the name of the ep escapes me at the minute) but also in season 3 where another Dr Carter comes through the mirror and Sam actually states that her joining the millitary could have been an effecting factor (amoungst other things as well..including meeting Teal'c, Daniel joining the program..) gives the impression that women filling only one role are less beneficial. I actually cant think of a male character who provides two roles on Stargate Atlantis or SG1???? It seems to be just the women..Maybe we should take it as a compliment we're multi-talented

      Im pretty sure im waffling on now...so im gonna stop now...hehe hope im making sense
      Last edited by Nutty_One111; 30 September 2005, 06:51 PM.

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        #18
        Originally posted by NotANumber
        If you're going to discuss Sam, you might be better off ignoring Grace (713). Also, when you reference the "reproductive organs" scene from Children of the Gods (101), you could also bring up the scene in Moebius (819) that satirises how truly terrible the line was.
        Good suggestions, but why ignore 'Grace'? As far as I remember, that showed Carter in good light. Is your complaint that she was a little too Mary-Sue, or does it have to do with the S/J overtones?

        Also, in discussing Sam, I want to know if most people thought the whole S/J relationship reflected well on Carter, or poorly? Did you think she handled the situation appropriately (i.e. avoiding a romantic relationship with him because he was her C.O.), or inappropriately (several people have remarked that she nearly "pinned over Jack like a love-sick teenager.") In general, how have tptb handled the protrayal of Sam's love-life (i.e. Pete, Narim, etc . . .)? And why did they feel the need to emphasize this more than the love-life of the men of SG-1?

        Originally posted by NotANumber
        Another possibly interesting aspect could be how the writers deal with relationships on the show, that kind of one-off thing that you never hear about again, and what differences there may be in the portrayal between male main cast members and female main cast members. Early SG-1 is full of them for the men - Brief Candle (108), Need (205), A Hundred Days (317) etc. - whereas except for The Fitrst Commandment (105) Sam had recurring quasi-relationships with a number of men, like Martouf and Nariim.

        Also Atlantis has had a few so far for the men - Sanctuary (114), The Brotherhood (116), Duet (204) - but none for the women, unless you count Weir and Simon in Rising (101), Home (109), Letters from Pegasus (117) and The Intruder (202). Hm, that's interesting - apparently the women are less likely to have the one-off fling thing.
        Good point. I personally think it's because women will be seem as 'easy' or even 'slutty' if they have a one-night stand. I may be wrong about this (in which case correct me), but I was under the impression that Carter was denounced many times on GW for her 'flings' with men. Yet, the men were largely uncriticized.

        Although, to play devil's advocate, in SGA, I've heard some harsh denouncment of Sheppard's one-night stands. Specifically, in Sanctuary. His actions were largely criticized by many fans as flimsy and way too flirty. So, the double standard in this particular regard doesn't quite hold water. Although the issue of whether we'll see any SGA women have any 'one-off fling things' is still up in the air. Personally, I don't see it happening.

        Wanna sig? Ask me. I'll probably make you one.
        I would also like it noted that in The Long Goodbye,
        Spoiler:
        Weir asked John to be her husband, and he said yes!! HA!!! LOL!

        Comment


          #19
          Wow Whistler! How come you go to the cool college :outy face:: I'm jealous!! This is such a great idea, and I know that you're going to do an awesome job. Sam is a fantastic character and a great one for sci-fi, but you definitely feel more comfortable with Weir and Teyla. You good go really into depth with these two and do a lot of good discussion. Stick with these two if it will make you more confident about your ability to portray the characters. And if you ever need us to look over things for the class, I know that I'd definitely be willing to help!

          "But that man who has known the immense unhappiness of losing a friend, by what name do we call him? Here every language is silent and holds its peace in impotence." ~In memory of Whistler84...loved and missed but never, never forgotten. Safe journey, my dear friend. Love you.

          HIC COMITAS REGIT How long until Shore Leave 29???

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            #20
            Originally posted by SnoggingPicard
            Wow Whistler! How come you go to the cool college :outy face:: I'm jealous!! This is such a great idea, and I know that you're going to do an awesome job. Sam is a fantastic character and a great one for sci-fi, but you definitely feel more comfortable with Weir and Teyla. You good go really into depth with these two and do a lot of good discussion. Stick with these two if it will make you more confident about your ability to portray the characters. And if you ever need us to look over things for the class, I know that I'd definitely be willing to help!
            Thanks! I may just end up focusing on SGA if I don't feel confident enough about SG-1 when the time comes. I would hate to do that, however. That's mainly why I opened up this question to the forum. I feel that Sam and Fraiser, and yes, even Vala, deserve some time because they were an integral part of the Stargate Universe.

            Wanna sig? Ask me. I'll probably make you one.
            I would also like it noted that in The Long Goodbye,
            Spoiler:
            Weir asked John to be her husband, and he said yes!! HA!!! LOL!

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by Nutty_One111
              Wow really interesting thread..

              I was actually reading a magazine article on a similar subject today and it seems to relate...
              Nutty_One111, I agree with everything you said, but I *really* want to know where this magazine article is. It could be a useful resource for next semester for the other students to read. (Yes, we have reading assigned in this class, but not heavy-duty.)

              Wanna sig? Ask me. I'll probably make you one.
              I would also like it noted that in The Long Goodbye,
              Spoiler:
              Weir asked John to be her husband, and he said yes!! HA!!! LOL!

              Comment


                #22
                I can't find what post said it, but someone was commenting on the males in the cast having broken marriages but the females not.

                Frasier was divorced...as she mentioned in Hathor (which would be an interesting side note to your syllabus anyway, campy foolishness that it was) and I think Heroes I.

                Sam broke off two engagements (Jonas I and Pete), not to mention her unfortunate black widow curse. Narim, Ambassador Joe, Martouf, er...Jonas I (after the break-up), just off the top of my head.

                As for Amanda giving TPTB pointers, I read an old interview, but can't remember where now, that talked about how early on AT told the writers to just write Sam as if she were a guy, and she would take care of making her "feminine".

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Whistler84
                  My question is, how do I go about discussing the females of Stargate? My personal fav is Weir, but I don't want to be biased towards her, 'cause Sam and Teyla deserve major props, too. Also, should I bring up Vala? Fraiser? What examples should I use? How should I describe these women? Are each of them good examples of typical science fiction women, and do they portray women in good light? I wanted to get some input from you guys on this, so any feedback or recommendations would be highly appreciated.
                  <<my snips>>

                  This is an ambitious project, Whistler84; kudos for even conceiving it! Sounds like fun for the instructor and students.

                  You seem to have a good start with the comments already posted. I'm ok with a bias toward at least one female in the SG universe, your favorite being Weir. (My own is Carter but still luv your gal.) Guess my point is you have to have a starting point for good and not so good examples; I know your students are going to ask you anyway!

                  Somewhere in discussions you'll probably run into the commercial-money aspect of the female presence in these films-shows and the way women get depicted for this value. Battlestar Galactica's Starbuck has an austere aspect while that Sylon babe is lethal femininity. Stargate SG1's Carter is scientist and soldier and focussed while Vala is like the Sylon babe but with more conscience. Stargate Atlantis' Weir maintains a dignified no-nonsense presence while Teyla appears to be in motion and watchful at all times. Would these shows be what they are if these women were 1)all the same or 2)never there? Does a scifi showfilm have to have a babe? Um, dang if I know; just thinking out loud .

                  I would love to know the percentage of men and women taking your class.

                  An intriguing idea. Nice to have the brainmatter prodded even when the thought's incomplete!

                  Just sayin'.
                  MISSION: STARGATE REWATCH 2011-2012 ENGAGED DONE!
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                  Beware Helen Magnus - Doctor of A$$-Kicking



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                    #24
                    I cant actually remember the name of the magazine off hand but i'll find out and let you know later on tonight Its a UK magazine so you'd probably have to get the article off of the internet...

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Whistler84
                      Okay, this may seem weird, but follow me for a second before you start scratching your heads in bewilderment. At my college, UC Berkeley, there's an option for students to *teach* their own elective classes, about whatever frivolous topic they want. They're called Decal classes. The topics range from pop culture to politics to medicine to whatever. Some classes focus on TV shows. This is treated as a legitimate class, that gets college credit (pass/no-pass). The student simply chooses the topic, and heavily prepares for the class the semester before (and goes through a whole bunch of hoops before being allowed to start their own decal class). For obvious reasons, they're extremely popular among students and is truly a one-of-a-kind opportunity that doesn't exist in many other colleges. I, myself, have attended two decal classes over the last year: 1.) Simpsons and Philosophy. 2.) Batman: The American Mythology. Both have been entertaining and, quite simply, a great experience.

                      The reason I'm bringing this up is because I'm starting my own decal class next semester, and am in the middle of preparation right now. My class will focus on 'Feminism in Science Fiction,' which will range from TV shows, movies, to books. I'll talk about how feminism in sci-fi is unique and different from most conventional feminist definitions. I'll talk about the pros and cons of most stereotypical females in science-fiction, and how that relates to images of women in real life.

                      Basically, I'll talk about a variety of deep-seeded feminist issues, but I'll relate it to popular female science-fiction characters.

                      For instance, one day, I'll cover Ripley from Aliens, then Dana Scully from the X Files, then Hermione Granger in HP. I'll take about the characters and how their image relates to the underlying themes and motifs that permeates through science fiction. Why are these women popular? Do real life women, like me, relate to them? Are they merely fantasies with no tangible connection to real life? Etc . . .

                      I also want to devote at least a day or two to the Stargate universe, and the women in it.

                      My question is, how do I go about discussing the females of Stargate? My personal fav is Weir, but I don't want to be biased towards her, 'cause Sam and Teyla deserve major props, too. Also, should I bring up Vala? Fraiser? What examples should I use? How should I describe these women? Are each of them good examples of typical science fiction women, and do they portray women in good light? I wanted to get some input from you guys on this, so any feedback or recommendations would be highly appreciated.
                      '

                      You need to find a better name for your class. It might scare people off because it makes the class sound boring. I like your idea through, and I think you could make a great class out of it. What asspects of the women in Scifi are you going to teach?
                      I'm from Iowa, United States

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                        #26
                        Also, in discussing Sam, I want to know if most people thought the whole S/J relationship reflected well on Carter, or poorly? Did you think she handled the situation appropriately (i.e. avoiding a romantic relationship with him because he was her C.O.), or inappropriately (several people have remarked that she nearly "pinned over Jack like a love-sick teenager.") In general, how have tptb handled the protrayal of Sam's love-life (i.e. Pete, Narim, etc . . .)? And why did they feel the need to emphasize this more than the love-life of the men of SG-1?
                        i think for the most part the s/j relationship was handled realisticly. but its all down to perception. i'm a fan of both characters individually, and as a ship, so my perspective will be different from others. it also depends on your view of feminism and on women in general i suppose.
                        there was a time when people were saying that jacks behaviour was inappropriate, then it shifted somehow to sam pining. in my view TPTB have pretty much kept it balanced over the years. for every sam showing that she loves him, there a jack moment doing the same thing. the only time i thought the whole thing was handled badly was in chimera and affinity. i think how she responded around pete was a weakening of her character, but only because she didn't end the relationship at the end of chimera.
                        i don't think pete was a good character, in the same way that jonas hansen was not a good character. they were jerks. sam pretty much let pete control their relationship, and it really did give an insight into her personal issues (non jack related BTW).
                        my personal view on sam is that she has many issues. not because she is a woman, but because she is human. and i think that TPTB do a good job of making her human, and not just super!sam. when chimera first aired i wrote a big detailed psychological theory on sam, but i think it was on the shipper thread, so its probably lost way back in the archives of oblivion now. but if you are interested, then PM me and i'll go into detail on my theories on pete. i know there are people here who liked him, so i'll try not to be too mean here.

                        anyway. i don't think that sams relationship, and handling of it, with jack reflected badly on her character, i think it made her more interesting, and more human. i think her relationship with pete was considerably worse for her character.
                        also i don't think they did necessarily show sams suitors more than they did the others. look at daniels history. children of the gods, broca divide, need, forever and a day, past and present, prometheus unbound. for example.
                        o'neill; cold lazarus, there but for the grace of god, brief candle, a hundred days, threads, and others that i'm sure i'm forgetting.
                        teal'c: bloodlines (?), family, cross roads, the first episode with ishta (can't think of the name right now), affinity (WHY!?!), sacrifices.

                        they've all had plenty of moments. but now i'm rambling again.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Simple really, have a splash of all!! that way none of them are left out, its so simple i summed it up in two lines!

                          Comment


                            #28
                            A lot of people brought up a lot of good points, me trying to bring a bit of mine.

                            Sam is indeed a very strong female character. She's a scientists, but she's a "cool" scientist - she's not portrayed as a geek - which, BTW, is often the trand, males or females. I would actually compare perhaps 48 hours and Redemption part 2. In 48 Hours Rodeny tells Sam something to the spirit of "I love dumb blondes".. while in Redemption, he humbles down, and tells her she's an artist in what she does, while he isn't - it's prolly a good way to show the appreciation she gets as a genious physicist. How many female scientists are there in SciFi television, actually? Not much, methinks. You could show, comparing her to other sci-fi character, how she's both the warrior and the scientist, not just one or the other.

                            With Weir, you could perhaps talk about how leadership develops in science fiction... I know I felt at first in Atlantis she's deferring to Sheppard, and as season 1 grew on she felt more confident, more in charge...

                            Vala... Y'know what I would have shown? The bit in Ties That Bind
                            Spoiler:
                            when she's in Daniel's room and he's like "oh, you're doing it because of 1-2-3-4" and she goes "really?" (to the end where he's like "Are you messing with me?!")- it's quite a cliche-breaker, IMHO. You'd expect to have the psychological bit which would show her as weaker, or anything, and she's basically pulling his leg.


                            Just a couple of suggestion... Meh, I wanna go to Berkley. Kudos for your project!
                            Pinky, are you thinking what I'm thinking?
                            Yes, I am!
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                              #29
                              Originally posted by SG-1ssm
                              '

                              You need to find a better name for your class. It might scare people off because it makes the class sound boring. I like your idea through, and I think you could make a great class out of it. What asspects of the women in Scifi are you going to teach?
                              Nah. Trust me, at Berkeley, I'll have to turn people away at the door. And as for what aspects I'm going to see, I'll compare various aspects of women in sci-fi from the 60s, 70's, 80's, 90's, and today. (i.e. How have they evolved, and what traits still remain?) I'll show a variaty of media in class (cartoons, movies, tv shows, assign some short reading in books.) Compare fantasy to sci-fi women. Talk about double standards and stereotypes. Warrior women versus spiritual women. Etc . . . That type of stuff.

                              Edit: I suppose I could call it 'Sci-fi Women' instead.
                              Last edited by Whistler84; 01 October 2005, 01:10 PM.

                              Wanna sig? Ask me. I'll probably make you one.
                              I would also like it noted that in The Long Goodbye,
                              Spoiler:
                              Weir asked John to be her husband, and he said yes!! HA!!! LOL!

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Everybody above has such great comments! I want to resond to all, but I don't want to mediate the conversation. Talk and converse among yourselves. Argue or agree. I kinda want that to be the setting in my class, too! But, seriously, great reading here.

                                Here's another touchy Sam subject. Why was Cam promoted to leadership position over her? I've only heard snipits of this convo, but I get the gists. Can we get people in here to argue both sides of the argument?

                                Wanna sig? Ask me. I'll probably make you one.
                                I would also like it noted that in The Long Goodbye,
                                Spoiler:
                                Weir asked John to be her husband, and he said yes!! HA!!! LOL!

                                Comment

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