INTERVIEW: Martin Gero (Writer)

[Skydiver]

B5 was different as the outside interference came from TPTB/Suits themselves, not the fans. The suits wanted more "ship" and T & A, and JMS refused, which got him cancelled in season 4. It was fan outcry that got TNT to bring it back from the dead, but unfortunately JMS had tied up his storylines and didn't have much left to tell, hence season 5 was awfully slow moving.

which is one reason JMS hasn't done anything since. it's nto for a lack of ideas, but the difficulty in finding a network that will keep their freaking paws off the show.

i just don't get it. these folks are hired to write/create a show....they're hired for thier talent and - presumably - based on their track records...then morons in suits whose idea of creative is to change the screen saver on thier pc, dictate plots/stories and characters.

let the execs exec and let the writers/directors/producers do the jobs there were hired to do.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

B5 was different as the outside interference came from TPTB/Suits themselves, not the fans. The suits wanted more "ship" and T & A, and JMS refused, which got him cancelled in season 4.

What I was trying to say, obviously poorly, was that JMS had trouble even complying with the wants of the few, the powerful, the purse-string holders. What compromises he did make for the PTB compromised the quality of seasons 1 and 5.

Fans are like "the suits" in that they, too, want more/less<insert want here>. Idealy, an artist should be free to listen only to his own wants. I know, not gonna happen with tv, but barring this impossible ideal, the artist should have to bow to the least number of people possible.

Well, that's what I think, anyways.

[Skydiver]

one critical difference between suits and fen are....they can blow us off. We don't do much but turn off the set. and even then, we don't represent more than a small sample of viewers

suits on the other hand, hold the purse strings, literally

through the suits we get declarations like 'add a sexy alien' (Anise) 'i don't care if claudia is pregnant, we want her in the end of s9' and other such declarations

and, as in the case of jms, saying no runs the risk of 'gee, ok, sorry you feel that way, have a nice life and don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out'

just like one factor to FS getting canned. They wanted a full season, skiffy only wante half, an impasse was reached and..bye, bye FS.

the suits hold the power and they know it...and they will use that power to get their way, even if 'their way' is not a good idea/plan creatively

[Matt G]

Kinda reminds me of an Orange(mobile phone) ad series that usually comes up in cinemas over here. Big Name X has an idea. Visits Orange suits for £$£$£. Orange suits rip up idea/don't take actor seriously/do whatever they can to turn the idea into a two hour advert for Orange. Exit Big Name X.

[Ouroboros]

Put your(generic)self in his shoes. Look at the situation from his perspective. The writer's audience, his fanbase, is his bosses. The only constructive, and timely feedback he's going to get is from that immediate audience. It's bad enough, from a creative perspective, that he has to bow even to that pressure and change to suit the vision of these few, adding the conflicting views of thousands of fans would be simply ludicrous.

He didn't say that it simply wasn't practical to listen to fan feedback though, he said, or rather seemed to indicate, that such feedback was simply not particularly important or relevant to what he was doing. Again these are simply my own impressions.

Now were I an entertainer first and foremost at the front of my mind would be that the purpose of my job is to entertain and please an audience to the best of my ability. While it's true that this is essentially an unachievable goal (you can never make everyone happy) comments like "I don't really pay attention when they don't like an episode" do not speak to a mentality that's concerned with actively attempting to please anyone in the audience really.

They speak more to the mentality of "I'm just going to do what I want and if you like it then great I'll take the praise, if not, you don't really matter to me".

Now that might not be what they're actually doing, it probably isn't, but that is the impression that this interview gives me. That's what I think has got people's backs up over this.

Another potential reason why this attitude is a cause of concern to sci-fi fans in particular is because historically it has gone hand in hand with some truelly dreadful shows.

The later series of StarTrek Voyager and Enterprise, in addition tot he more recent trek movies, were run by Berman and Braga with a "we know what's best regardless of what the audience says" mentality. Indeed in that particular case the two of them could almost came off as regarding the fans as the enemy at times! A similar mentality also took hold of Andromeda in season 2, turning what was once a good show into a plague of idiocy.

Both of these shows were helmed by groups of people who thought they knew better than anyone and everyone else, especially the audience, what was good and entertaining and what wasn't, and both of them were, or ended up as, miserable embarrassments to the sci-fi genre.

As a long-time watcher of Stargate it worries me to see hints that the current shall we say, fluctuations, in quality might be the first symptoms of this mentality begining to take root in this franchise.

Now apparently you didn't count those of us who have posted that we actually LIKED that Martin stated this.

I must have just missed you, sorry.

[TameFarrar]

He didn't say that it simply wasn't practical to listen to fan feedback though, he said, or rather seemed to indicate, that such feedback was simply not particularly important or relevant to what he was doing. Again these are simply my own impressions.

Now were I an entertainer first and foremost at the front of my mind would be that the purpose of my job is to entertain and please an audience to the best of my ability. While it's true that this is essentially an unachievable goal (you can never make everyone happy) comments like "I don't really pay attention when they don't like an episode" do not speak to a mentality that's concerned with actively attempting to please anyone in the audience really.

They speak more to the mentality of "I'm just going to do what I want and if you like it then great I'll take the praise, if not, you don't really matter to me".

Now that might not be what they're actually doing, it probably isn't, but that is the impression that this interview gives me. That's what I think has got people's backs up over this.

Another potential reason why this attitude is a cause of concern to sci-fi fans in particular is because historically it has gone hand in hand with some truelly dreadful shows.

The later series of StarTrek Voyager and Enterprise, in addition tot he more recent trek movies, were run by Berman and Braga with a "we know what's best regardless of what the audience says" mentality. Indeed in that particular case the two of them could almost came off as regarding the fans as the enemy at times! A similar mentality also took hold of Andromeda in season 2, turning what was once a good show into a plague of idiocy.

Both of these shows were helmed by groups of people who thought they knew better than anyone and everyone else, especially the audience, what was good and entertaining and what wasn't, and both of them were, or ended up as, miserable embarrassments to the sci-fi genre.

As a long-time watcher of Stargate it worries me to see hints that the current shall we say, fluctuations, in quality might be the first symptoms of this mentality begining to take root in this franchise.

I do agree that The *Show Runners* of SG1 & SGA have gotten to the point that they do seem very *Berman and Braga * in their attitudes and quite possibly Martin is having to deal with that very same attitude from both of them. However, that is Cooper and Wright NOT Gero. Martin Gero is not a PTB nor is he a JR PTB...he is a writer with a sometimes producer credit. So at the end of the day he still has to please his boss period end of story.

He could say ...*Oh yes I take all of the fans thoughts to heart when I write* and that would be a bold face lie. Instead he chose to be honest and say well this is what I write and I really try not to listen or don't listen to the fans who don't like it. Because at the end of the day the ones I have to please are my bosses. THAT is the truth. It doesn't mean he wants to write stuff that the fans DON'T like...it just means he like any other NORMAL person doesn't like to hear or read bad stuff about what he does. He could change what he writes based on *fan critique* and guess what *Cooper & Wright* AKA Berman and Braga would probably just re-write the darn script and the more Gero did that and the more re-writes that happened would eventually see Gero out of a job....But Hey he wrote for the fans....ain't that great ....so unrealistic its not even funny.

The man makes a statement that says the truth about HIS job and fans turn it into some kind of slight against them. How self-absorbed can the fans be? I would rather he be honest in his interview and STILL GIVE interviews then sit there and give *lip-service* and later I find out he is just a liar and I never want him to speak again. Cause I won't trust him. Right now I find more integrity in a man who is honest and does actually care about the fans BUT also cares about his job enough to say so.

I would be surprised if any writer, if they are honest, wrote *just* for the fans or even put that much stock in them outside of the *general ratings* .

I can cheer enough for Martin's honesty and I respect him all the more for being candid and upfront. I would rather he do that then give me a bunch of lip service and then turn around and write stuff that is in direct contrast to what he just said.

[Ksenia]

Great interview, interesting insight - thanks!

[Ouroboros]

I do agree that The *Show Runners* of SG1 & SGA have gotten to the point that they do seem very *Berman and Braga * in their attitudes and quite possibly Martin is having to deal with that very same attitude from both of them. However, that is Cooper and Wright NOT Gero. Martin Gero is not a PTB nor is he a JR PTB...he is a writer with a sometimes producer credit. So at the end of the day he still has to please his boss period end of story.

He could say ...*Oh yes I take all of the fans thoughts to heart when I write* and that would be a bold face lie. Instead he chose to be honest and say well this is what I write and I really try not to listen or don't listen to the fans who don't like it. Because at the end of the day the ones I have to please are my bosses. THAT is the truth. It doesn't mean he wants to write stuff that the fans DON'T like...it just means he like any other NORMAL person doesn't like to hear or read bad stuff about what he does. He could change what he writes based on *fan critique* and guess what *Cooper & Wright* AKA Berman and Braga would probably just re-write the darn script and the more Gero did that and the more re-writes that happened would eventually see Gero out of a job....But Hey he wrote for the fans....ain't that great ....so unrealistic its not even funny.

I've got to say nothing I read in the quotes posted indicated to me that he was speaking on behalf of anyone but himself. Things like the "I don't really pay attention to it when they don't (like my work)" quote is him stating his personal beliefs isn't it?

Now he might be doing it in some effort to toe the line so to speak but it's also entirely possible that he was hired by TPTB that you seem to prefer to point the finger at because he thinks in a similar way to them(he is a fairly new hire). It all becomes speculation at that point and I'd rather not engage in speculation that ends with me laying blame on other people based solely on that speculation. All I can do is read the interview here and take my impressions based on what the guy interviewed said.

The man makes a statement that says the truth about HIS job and fans turn it into some kind of slight against them. How self-absorbed can the fans be?

To be fair, how many people do you know that wouldn't take some issue with being told their opinion was worthless? That seems to be one of those universal irritation buttons. I can completely understand the reaction of fans who would take personal offense at some of the things he said. It might not be a necessarily rational reaction but I can understand why it would occur.

I would be surprised if any writer, if they are honest, wrote *just* for the fans or even put that much stock in them outside of the *general ratings* .

Shows live or die based on whether or not people can be bothered to watch them and many companies conduct extensive focus groups just to see if, for example, people like one commercial jingle better than another. I'd say that the opinions of the fans/audience are probably rather close to the top of the totem pole in terms of priorities in the entertainment world. Afterall what good is a show without an audience to entertain, it has no purpose.

When certain franchises have been in successful positions for a long time though they do tend to progressivly marginalize the importance of the audience more and more in my experience, and like I said previously, I'm worried that this is starting to happen to Stargate. It's turning into a show that WAS great as opposed to one that IS great, because the people involved in running it and making it, are becoming increasingly complacent and virtually fearless of something like cancellation lurking around the corner as the potential result of lackluster efforts.

This is the same climate that allowed junk shows like Voyager to flourish despite the often less than impressive quality of the actual stories themselves.

[Deevil]

To be fair, how many people do you know that wouldn't take some issue with being told their opinion was worthless? That seems to be one of those universal irritation buttons. I can completely understand the reaction of fans who would take personal offense at some of the things he said. It might not be a necessarily rational reaction but I can understand why it would occur.

And I cannot. He didn't say that their opinions doesn't matter, he said in the grand scheme of things he had to make his bosses happy. People have decided, yet again, to jump at someone in production because they are obviously not listening to them. Because what they want to have happen, and what they want to hear isn't coming to fruition.

Put yourself in Matin et all. place for a moment, who would you listen too? Which group of fans are more important? The ones that scream the loudest? The ones who complain the most? The ones that are pretty happy? Or the ones that are enjoying it?

Add to the above problem, we have an issue that the shows are all in the bag, or close enough to it by the time the first half of the season has aired. What are they going to change then? How are they going to change it? BW and co are the writers and many of the lowly producers metre of when things are going good or bad. That's all they can do, litsen to their bosses.

What else do you suggest they do, write something against what their bosses want to see in order to make a subsection of the fanbase happy? If they do this they are risking loosing their job. Is that fair of us to ask?

When certain franchises have been in successful positions for a long time though they do tend to progressivly marginalize the importance of the audience more and more in my experience, and like I said previously, I'm worried that this is starting to happen to Stargate. It's turning into a show that WAS great as opposed to one that IS great, because the people involved in running it and making it, are becoming increasingly complacent and virtually fearless of something like cancellation lurking around the corner as the potential result of lackluster efforts.

What you see as lackluster efforts, someone else sees as a masterpiece. I don't think it is fair to assume if TPTB were to pander to the fans that we will get a better show. All we would get is a hawaiian shirt of confusion because everyone wants something that they aren't getting shown, and let's face it, if they were going to start writing for all the fans, they have to write for all the fans.

The problem here is that (a few) people are reading this interview based on their preconcieved notions on the deterioration of the show, and therefore have quite easily and happily discovered in this interview and mindfield of evidence that their opinion doesn't count. But interestingly enough, you are marginlising Martin Gero's opinion by stating that his opinion is wrong, and doesn't count, and he has no right to have it. Which way is it? I'm honestly confused. If your opinion is meant to count, isn't his opinion meant to also? It's only fair.

*** You of course is the general you, not you personally (why do we have to use these disclaimers again?)

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

To be fair, how many people do you know that wouldn't take some issue with being told their opinion was worthless? That seems to be one of those universal irritation buttons. I can completely understand the reaction of fans who would take personal offense at some of the things he said. It might not be a necessarily rational reaction but I can understand why it would occur.

I think that's putting words in MG's mouth, there. He didn't say fan opinion was worthless, just that he doesn't listen much to fan opinion. Gold isn't worthless; I just don't invest in it.

I don't believe that you consider all opinions contrary to your own as being worthless; you just don't change your lifestyle or acts to accommodate them - unless, of course, it is the opinion of your PTB - parents, significant other, doctor, the law, etc.

Shows live or die based on whether or not people can be bothered to watch them and many companies conduct extensive focus groups just to see if, for example, people like one commercial jingle better than another. I'd say that the opinions of the fans/audience are probably rather close to the top of the totem pole in terms of priorities in the entertainment world. Afterall what good is a show without an audience to entertain, it has no purpose.

I'm not sure if that's why shows live or die. There are plenty of shows that people were bothering to watch that got cancelled due to... who knows? Not me, surely. John Doe, Farscape, Star Trek, when it first came out in the sixties. I don't think viewer discontent was the reason for any of these shows getting canned.

Okay, I'm asking because I really don't know about these things: How many tv shows are subjected to focus group analysis? I know that there are pre-screenings for movies, and, I don't know, perhaps series openers are subjected to the same, but do they still get this treatment 9 to 10 years into a project?

I've lost count of the number of times actors and writers have said in interviews that they hadn't even seen the finished product of their work that has already aired. They just don't have the time if they also want to have a life outside their careers. They do the best they can in the environment they work in, try to please their bosses, and no doubt long for the time when they can write what they want (not what others - fans included - want.)

[chocdoc]

I think that's putting words in MG's mouth, there. He didn't say fan opinion was worthless, just that he doesn't listen much to fan opinion. Gold isn't worthless; I just don't invest in it.

I don't believe that you consider all opinions contrary to your own as being worthless; you just don't change your lifestyle or acts to accommodate them - unless, of course, it is the opinion of your PTB - parents, significant other, doctor, the law, etc.




I'm not sure if that's why shows live or die. There are plenty of shows that people were bothering to watch that got cancelled due to... who knows? Not me, surely. John Doe, Farscape, Star Trek, when it first came out in the sixties. I don't think viewer discontent was the reason for any of these shows getting canned.

Okay, I'm asking because I really don't know about these things: How many tv shows are subjected to focus group analysis? I know that there are pre-screenings for movies, and, I don't know, perhaps series openers are subjected to the same, but do they still get this treatment 9 to 10 years into a project?

I've lost count of the number of times actors and writers have said in interviews that they hadn't even seen the finished product of their work that has already aired. They just don't have the time if they also want to have a life outside their careers. They do the best they can in the environment they work in, try to please their bosses, and no doubt long for the time when they can write what they want (not what others - fans included - want.)

I would think that the producers/writers would only pay attention to any fan reaction if indeed the ratings started a downward trend --and this has happened for SGA (and for that matter for SG-1 as well). But the question is, what fan reaction should they pay attention to? I would think they would see if there is any issue that is consistently discussed. And it seems that one of those issues is not enough character development for seasons 1 and 2.

So, both RCC and MG have noted that they need to have more really good character development in season 3. This may be something that alot of fans consistently agree on, and the writers/producers already probably realized that as they took a look at season 1 and 2. Beyond that, it is probably difficult to take into account fan reaction because of diverse opinions.

I liked Gero's interview. I thought he was very honest, and I appreciated that. I also liked the fact that he did mention the ratings. Season 3 is a make or break season for SGA, particularly because they have lost some of their viewers. As Gero says, they've held on to a majority of their viewers, but such a young show should not only hold on to the same number of viewers (which they have not), but gain viewers as well.

[Michelle05]

I liked Gero's interview. I thought he was very honest, and I appreciated that. I also liked the fact that he did mention the ratings. Season 3 is a make or break season for SGA, particularly because they have lost some of their viewers. As Gero says, they've held on to a majority of their viewers, but such a young show should not only hold on to the same number of viewers (which they have not), but gain viewers as well.

I'm also glad Gero mentioned the ratings and that what he wants more than anything is a Season 4. He's acknowledging it's not a sure thing, certainly.

I'm very grateful for the interview, though I wish some of the questions had been more head-on about the fact that the show is on shaky ground: first-run ratings are down, repeat airing ratings are so bad SciFi has pulled SGA from the schedule... Sci Fi Friday is being dismantled and Gero seems worried about that. "Hearing" between the lines, he seems worried in general IMO.

Gero hints at what they're doing to fix these problems: introducing new villains, more character interactions, etc. I would have loved to hear more about what pressures the writers are under from Sci Fi and MGM and what sort of 'notes' they are getting on the storylines, casting, etc. Maybe he wouldn't have been able to talk about it, but I find that stuff fascinating.

I really enjoyed most of Season 2 and hope the show does very well for Season 3. I guess we all have our theories on what needs to be improved, but in the end TPTB have to go with their own instincts, and that's all I think Martin was saying.

[Ouroboros]

And I cannot. He didn't say that their opinions doesn't matter, he said in the grand scheme of things he had to make his bosses happy. People have decided, yet again, to jump at someone in production because they are obviously not listening to them. Because what they want to have happen, and what they want to hear isn't coming to fruition.

I can understand where you're coming from, there is no need to be so defensive. I don't personally feel slighted by what he said but I can also understand why someone could feel such a way. It didn't really come as a shock or surprise to me at all to hear any of this.

Put yourself in Matin et all. place for a moment, who would you listen too? Which group of fans are more important? The ones that scream the loudest? The ones who complain the most? The ones that are pretty happy? Or the ones that are enjoying it?

I saddens me somewhat that the idea of being able to seperate meaningful criticism from irrational fan screaming is something that's begining to be thought of as difficult to do. I never said that anyone should run around left and right acting on any little peep fan groups make either. I simply said that the interview gave me the impression that any concerns coming out of the audience aren't even being considered as having any real importance. There's a rather big difference there.

Add to the above problem, we have an issue that the shows are all in the bag, or close enough to it by the time the first half of the season has aired. What are they going to change then?

The next season?

Hypothetically if you made a season with say, 17 out of 20 episodes centering around McKay saving the day with wonder tech and you started to get wind that the audience was starting to get sick of this maybe next season you could consider something different to keep things new and interesting?

What else do you suggest they do, write something against what their bosses want to see in order to make a subsection of the fanbase happy? If they do this they are risking loosing their job. Is that fair of us to ask?

How can you say for sure what Gero's bosses want or that they'd be unreasonable enough people to fire him simply over suggesting potential changes or writing an episode a certain way as opposed to another?

That is a rather hefty accusation to make about someone.

The problem here is that (a few) people are reading this interview based on their preconcieved notions on the deterioration of the show, and therefore have quite easily and happily discovered in this interview and mindfield of evidence that their opinion doesn't count.

Honestly there are just as many people reading it with rose-tinted glasses on.

But interestingly enough, you are marginlising Martin Gero's opinion by stating that his opinion is wrong, and doesn't count, and he has no right to have it. Which way is it? I'm honestly confused. If your opinion is meant to count, isn't his opinion meant to also? It's only fair.

Opinions can differ. This is not something that is surprising. I may think his opinions are flawed for various reasons I attempt to explain. Another may think mine are wrong for other reasons. There is no objective right or wrong here. I can not even say for certain what his true opinion is. All I have is the impression the interview gives me which may also be flawed or misinterpreted.

[Ouroboros]

I think that's putting words in MG's mouth, there. He didn't say fan opinion was worthless, just that he doesn't listen much to fan opinion. Gold isn't worthless; I just don't invest in it.

That's a pretty fine line don't you think?

If I don't invest in gold would it not be fair to say that investing in gold is something I see as having no value to me personally.

It's certainly a fine enough way for people to read it as "he just said I don't matter".

I'm not sure if that's why shows live or die. There are plenty of shows that people were bothering to watch that got cancelled due to... who knows? Not me, surely. John Doe, Farscape, Star Trek, when it first came out in the sixties. I don't think viewer discontent was the reason for any of these shows getting canned.

There can be other reasons to but for the most part everything does come down to "will people watch this". Everything else grows out of that, advertising, merchendise deals, future seasons, spin offs everything that makes money.

There are all sorts of checks and balances to make sure that people will watch shows, focus groups, age ratings to avoid offending people, content changes for similar reasons, sexy babes in tight leather to draw in young males. It's all based on trying to please the audience in one form or another.

There are even people who make money as film/TV critics and their opinions are sometimes thought of as having so much weight that bad films will no be prescreened for them because of fears that people will read their early reviews and not watch X.

Many shows like Farscape etc. were also interfeared with because the network higher ups felt that the show needed to appeal to a "wider audience" via various means. While the topic of network higher ups interfearing with shows is something else entirely it does show that audience interest is considered very important.

Okay, I'm asking because I really don't know about these things: How many tv shows are subjected to focus group analysis? I know that there are pre-screenings for movies, and, I don't know, perhaps series openers are subjected to the same, but do they still get this treatment 9 to 10 years into a project?

Series pilots are typically screened for networks who then make the decision to buy the show or not. They make this decision often based on things like if they need a show that fits into a certain audience demographic and if this show does so. In general though they make the decision based on "is this show something that people will watch" in addition to weighing that with other factors like various costs etc. It's hard to deny though that even from the begining the shows are being judged based on if they fit the perceived wishes of an audience.

Many shows are often pulled early because they fail to make the sort of audience numbers that the network had expected and thus they no longer can justify spending money on them. The opinions/interest of the audience again is the held up as an important factor.

[kiwigater]

I really enjoyed the interview - I have a great deal of respect for Martin G. I appreciate his honesty, both in his assessment of what has to happen for there to be a season 4, and also what, from his perspective, directs his writing and storylines. I would be horrified if ANY of the PTB off the show allowed fandom to dictate how the show progresses - fandom represents only a small fraction of the 2 million-ish viewers that tune in to the show every week, and the "vocal" fans constitute even less. IMHO it would be deleterious to the show to change your creative vision based solely on fandom, especially one as fractured as this one. Now, I'm not saying there ain't issues, in MY opinion there are, but how I would change things would most likely enrage half a dozen other fan groups..... Really, if I abhor the way the new season goes, all I have to do is vote with my remote....

So Martin, thank you for the interesting interview, I look forward to seeing how things pan out in the new season