tollan stargate: upgrade or a silly stargate???

[hedwig]

OK.
i see nobody understands at me what i say, so i will type it in a way its very clear:
the Tollans where advanced almost as ancients on tech and science.
they where almost as us in social stuff. (way of think, react, etc everything say by me and others as they reacted on between two fires).

I understand very well what you are saying. You think the Tollans were as advanced (or almost) as the ancients. I disagree with that idea. We clearly disagree on that idea, and apparently must agree to disagree on the subject; I'm fine with that.

As to the title of this thread, I don't see that the Tollan gate was either an upgrade or a "silly" stargate. How would it have been "silly"? And at least in appearance, it didn't seem to be an upgrade of any kind; we don't know that it did anything superior to any of the other Milkway gates.

Given what we saw of the Tollan's tech doesn't convince me they were as advanced as the ancients, not by a long way.

And just because we never heard anything more from the Tollans, that does not mean every last person on Tollana was killed. You are speculating. You have a right to your opinion, but that's all it is. There is nothing factual in any future episode to confirm that 100% of the Tollan people were killed. Narim might well have been killed, but there is no proof; only speculation. That is what you don't seem to understand.

In Season 10 of SG1, we heard that Langara (Jonas Quinn's planet) and Hebridan (the people in "Space Race") had fallen to the Ori. Yet in an SGU episode, we find that Langara survived and was doing quite well. Until proven otherwise, I choose to believe that at least a few people on Tollana survived. They could have gotten out of the city and into the countryside in caves or something.

Probably because seeing that they were allying themselves against the SGC's enemy would be seen as a hostile act. I'm not saying what Travell did was right, but she did what she thought was best for her nation.

Yes, I'm sure Travell did what she thought was right for her people. However, she trashed any credibility she had for being so superior to other races by doing so. She trashed her high morals and everything else she and the Tollans claimed they stood for. The Tollans refused to give weapons to inferior races because they might use it to destroy themselves, and yet there she was, willing to help the goa'uld destroy earth and other "inferior" races by building weapons of mass destruction. And, absolutely. Allying herself/Tollana with the Goa'uld is a rather mind-boggling act of hostility. She and her people were so preachy about earth people stealing their tech in "Shades of Grey", and here she was using that tech against earth - her/Tollana's supposed ally. And I don't see anything "best for her nation" in condoning Omoc's murder.

[LtColCarter]

I understand very well what you are saying. You think the Tollans were as advanced (or almost) as the ancients. I disagree with that idea. We clearly disagree on that idea, and apparently must agree to disagree on the subject; I'm fine with that.

As to the title of this thread, I don't see that the Tollan gate was either an upgrade or a "silly" stargate. How would it have been "silly"? And at least in appearance, it didn't seem to be an upgrade of any kind; we don't know that it did anything superior to any of the other Milkway gates.

Given what we saw of the Tollan's tech doesn't convince me they were as advanced as the ancients, not by a long way.

And just because we never heard anything more from the Tollans, that does not mean every last person on Tollana was killed. You are speculating. You have a right to your opinion, but that's all it is. There is nothing factual in any future episode to confirm that 100% of the Tollan people were killed. Narim might well have been killed, but there is no proof; only speculation. That is what you don't seem to understand.

In Season 10 of SG1, we heard that Langara (Jonas Quinn's planet) and Hebridan (the people in "Space Race") had fallen to the Ori. Yet in an SGU episode, we find that Langara survived and was doing quite well. Until proven otherwise, I choose to believe that at least a few people on Tollana survived. They could have gotten out of the city and into the countryside in caves or something.



Yes, I'm sure Travell did what she thought was right for her people. However, she trashed any credibility she had for being so superior to other races by doing so. She trashed her high morals and everything else she and the Tollans claimed they stood for. The Tollans refused to give weapons to inferior races because they might use it to destroy themselves, and yet there she was, willing to help the goa'uld destroy earth and other "inferior" races by building weapons of mass destruction. And, absolutely. Allying herself/Tollana with the Goa'uld is a rather mind-boggling act of hostility. She and her people were so preachy about earth people stealing their tech in "Shades of Grey", and here she was using that tech against earth - her/Tollana's supposed ally. And I don't see anything "best for her nation" in condoning Omoc's murder.

Well said!

[lordofseas]

I understand very well what you are saying. You think the Tollans were as advanced (or almost) as the ancients. I disagree with that idea. We clearly disagree on that idea, and apparently must agree to disagree on the subject; I'm fine with that.

As to the title of this thread, I don't see that the Tollan gate was either an upgrade or a "silly" stargate. How would it have been "silly"? And at least in appearance, it didn't seem to be an upgrade of any kind; we don't know that it did anything superior to any of the other Milkway gates.

Given what we saw of the Tollan's tech doesn't convince me they were as advanced as the ancients, not by a long way.

And just because we never heard anything more from the Tollans, that does not mean every last person on Tollana was killed. You are speculating. You have a right to your opinion, but that's all it is. There is nothing factual in any future episode to confirm that 100% of the Tollan people were killed. Narim might well have been killed, but there is no proof; only speculation. That is what you don't seem to understand.

In Season 10 of SG1, we heard that Langara (Jonas Quinn's planet) and Hebridan (the people in "Space Race") had fallen to the Ori. Yet in an SGU episode, we find that Langara survived and was doing quite well. Until proven otherwise, I choose to believe that at least a few people on Tollana survived. They could have gotten out of the city and into the countryside in caves or something.



Yes, I'm sure Travell did what she thought was right for her people. However, she trashed any credibility she had for being so superior to other races by doing so. She trashed her high morals and everything else she and the Tollans claimed they stood for. The Tollans refused to give weapons to inferior races because they might use it to destroy themselves, and yet there she was, willing to help the goa'uld destroy earth and other "inferior" races by building weapons of mass destruction. And, absolutely. Allying herself/Tollana with the Goa'uld is a rather mind-boggling act of hostility. She and her people were so preachy about earth people stealing their tech in "Shades of Grey", and here she was using that tech against earth - her/Tollana's supposed ally. And I don't see anything "best for her nation" in condoning Omoc's murder.

I'm not saying you would, and nor do I. From her POV, though, it could be the only thing that stopped all of Tollana from going into a panic.

But, yes, I agree.

Another reason that the Tollan are not as advanced as the Ancients is that the the Goa'uld decimated Tollana with inferior Ancient technology.

[fems]

The whole random testing of ion cannons on Tollan people also doesn't sound like the Tollans are as high and mighty as they pretend to be.

Spoiler:

TEAL'C
Narim, Colonel O'Neill. This says that two months ago, there was an unscheduled test of Tollan ion cannons. And that Omoc filed an official protest.

NARIM
Yes. I remember it well. We were supposed to have an evening meal together. Omoc was late. He was very angry when he arrived. He spent the entire time ranting about the unfairness of random testing on the Tollan people.

Not that it really took place, but Narim didn't seem to find it an implausible/unethical situation.

Personally, I think, if anything, the Tollan Stargate was a downgrade. Their new planet, Tollana, was outside of the gate system and I assume they chose that planet because of that (and other factors). They built their own gate which doesn't appear to have a DHD (although that raises questions for SG-1's escape to Earth in Between Two Fires) and is probably controlled by either a device similar to the one the Asgard, FutureCassandra and Apophis once used to reactivate the gate, or they used Earth's concept of a computer-like device. Either way, I assume their gate isn't hooked up to the normal gate network so they can ensure no one finds their location or get uninvited guests (as there didn't appear to be an iris or something similar, which they probably wouldn't think of because of their phase-technology). The gate was destroyed, although we don't know how and it's possible it went down like the one on Edora and is buried, because I doubt they took the time to check it out before escaping in their space ships. But it could also be made of a different/weaker material.

As for comparing them to the Alterans, I have to agree with hedwig and LtColCarter. After all, the Tollans were unable to save their first planet from a natural disaster and managed to kill off all animal life on said planet. While their technology might be ahead of ours, by distancing themselves from other planets/cultures they became/remained ignorant of everything but technology. They're gullible and naive, yet very arrogant when it comes to technology. All they had were the ion cannons and they assumed they were safe, there was no backup plan. They relied solely on one piece of technology to keep them all safe and alive.

Oh and Daniel never said how many years they were ahead of us (not that he would know, since technology isn't his specialty), he merely pointed out it was possible they were ahead of us since we went through the Dark Ages and basically did nothing to further our technological development for 800 years. Or in other words, if the Tollan didn't go through the Dark Ages or something similar, it's very possible they are ahead of us since we stood still for a period of time.

[SILLYFAN]

first, this whole discussion its beyond stupidity.
on all the episodes they are, carter looks like a dog trying to read a book. she does not understand anything of their science.
and the tech its beyond our understanding. they where as advanced almost as the ancients. where close but not there just yet as the Asgards. stop trashing the Tollans because they just appeared on a few episodes.


the Stargate did had a modern and cool DHD similar to the Atlantis one but was never show. if not the sg1 could have not being able to scape the planet and would have died with the Tollans.
the Stargate might be weaker since they never expected to get a ship shooting the Stargate. Narim Explained in his last message that the Stargate was destroyed so the people (after) try to scape on ships while they where under enemy fire. after his ship was destroyed.


they never choose a planet without Stargate so they did not get uninvited guests, since that would mean a race that can hack a DHD and get all the current Stargate addresses. as i remember ba`al know how to do this since it ordered a minor goa`uld to deep study the DHD and apparently was a few decades studding the DHD and it did not managed to fully understand it.


they Choose a planet without Stargate to make sure was not habitated and later the last ship that was going to pick up omoc and Narim on the old tollan world probably would also rescue the Stargate and the DHD. but probably the lava covered it before the last ship could arrive. so they just build one with Nox help. thats it. no more discussions about if tollan people was or not advanced. watch the episodes where they are and then come here and put an opinion.


besides as i already type it in this thread, they where TECHNOLOGY AND SCIENTIFIC more advanced near ancient level. social skills, ways of think, of react, costumes etc where similar to us. thats it. if this carry on i would like a moderator to close the thread. the Stargate was probably weaker as the prototype Stargate one from sgu. thats it.

[fems]

Several people have already pointed out there are flaws in your theory, yet you insist that you are right and everybody else is wrong. You claim things that haven't been shown in the show (or mentioned by the producers/writers etc) and simply say they happened but we didn't see them... without evidence it's all speculation. There was no DHD or something similar shown near the gate, so you can't say they had one with certainty.

Why bother opening a thread to ask people's opinion when you ignore everything they say just because it doesn't fit with your ideas?

[SILLYFAN]

The thread its to speculate if the tollan stargate was or not weaker than the normal ones. Not about the tollan society or the tollan people. So you are off topic.

[fems]

Well, the title clearly states 'upgrade' not 'stronger/weaker' so you have to look at all aspects of the gate, not just the material it was made of. You were the one that kept talking about the involvement of the Nox and claimed that Narim said so and specifically told "us" to watch the episodes to see for ourselves. Then you start about how the Tollans were "like human Ancients" and how they were almost as advanced as the Nox.

With that, you opened the door for others to react and discuss your claims.

[hedwig]

The thread its to speculate if the tollan stargate was or not weaker than the normal ones. Not about the tollan society or the tollan people. So you are off topic.

Actually, you are the one that dragged this thread off topic by comparing the Tollan to the ancients. The thread title is about the Tollan stargate, not about how smart the Tollan people are. If you want the title of the thread changed, you might want to ask a mod to change it for you.

And pretty much everyone else that has posted here has said they don't think that gate was stronger (an upgrade) than any other gate. And I haven't a clue to what you mean by "silly stargate", so there's really no way to answer that.

no more discussions about if tollan people was or not advanced. watch the episodes where they are and then come here and put an opinion.

I don't have to go watch the episodes to post an opinion here. I've already seen the episodes about the Tollan many times. In fact, I was watching them this week, so there's no need to go watch them again in order to have an appropriate comment.

[LtColCarter]

Ahh...here we go again. When his/her threads go in a direction other than the direction he/she wants them to...they've become "stupid." Even when he/she is the one who derailed the thread in the first place, its still everyone else's fault for being off topic.

Anyway...the Tollan gate was neither an upgrade nor a "silly stargate." It was just a gate the Tollans had created out of whatever materials they had on hand, which is probably why it was able to be destroyed. As for being a "silly stargate," I don't know the criteria for making a "silly stargate."

[lordofseas]

Ahh...here we go again. When his/her threads go in a direction other than the direction he/she wants them to...they've become "stupid." Even when he/she is the one who derailed the thread in the first place, its still everyone else's fault for being off topic.

Anyway...the Tollan gate was neither an upgrade nor a "silly stargate." It was just a gate the Tollans had created out of whatever materials they had on hand, which is probably why it was able to be destroyed. As for being a "silly stargate," I don't know the criteria for making a "silly stargate."

A silly stargate is made out of silly putty, silly.

[LtColCarter]

A silly stargate is made out of silly putty, silly.

ahhh...thanks for the clarification! If that is the criteria, then the Tollan gate wasn't a silly stargate then! It definitely didn't look like it was made of silly putty!

wanted to give you green...but it says I need to spread the love before I can give you more.

[hedwig]

ahhh...thanks for the clarification! If that is the criteria, then the Tollan gate wasn't a silly stargate then! It definitely didn't look like it was made of silly putty!

wanted to give you green...but it says I need to spread the love before I can give you more.

Maybe it was made out of glitter and tinfoil?

[lordofseas]

ahhh...thanks for the clarification! If that is the criteria, then the Tollan gate wasn't a silly stargate then! It definitely didn't look like it was made of silly putty!

wanted to give you green...but it says I need to spread the love before I can give you more.

I'd doubt it. My personal opinion on the Tollan Stargate was that it was ring of Naquadah with all the technogadgets, with a healthy coating of trinium. That, or a Ring of Power. Preferably Nenya.

Maybe it was made out of glitter and tinfoil?

The Tollan were fabulous.

[StargateWatcher]

A silly stargate is made out of silly putty, silly.

[QUOTE=LtColCarter;12795837] ahhh...thanks for the clarification! If that is the criteria, then the Tollan gate wasn't a silly stargate then! It definitely didn't look like it was made of silly putty!

HEhehe

Maybe it was made out of glitter and tinfoil?

some Tollan stuff loox like it was made of tinfoil b/c it had a silvery look