Most powerful/effective weapon.

[Buba uognarf]

Remember, these are only powered by Zero Point Modules. If we wanted to "even the playingfield" as it were, we would give each and every weapon equal amounts of power. Otherwise, you have a unwanted variable.

Well that is true, the Wraith pulses and the Odyssesy's APBW are both powered by a single ZPM so they could be compared. Would be difficult though and based mostly of speculation.

If we give everything equal amounts of power then it becomes exceedingly difficult to compare them as it becomes more and more speculative. We can only guess on the power and effectiveness of an APBW powered by a Mark I, or to take things even further an APBW powered by a Puddle Jumper.

[thekillman]

You hit the nail on the head, a 304 will lose against 3 Hives. An Ancient satellite powered by a mark I (when not already damaged) will destroy 3 Hives.

the sat will be destroyed long before it can recharge. unless you want to say that the sattelite can beat 3 hives in 3 minutes before said hives hyperspace next to it and fragment it.


the reason it was so effective was because the wraith thought it was dead. had they known it was effective, they would've blasted it to hell LONG before it would be even CLOSE to charging.

[thekillman]

also, i rewatched the Siege today. ten hives put an incredible stress on the shield. the superhive only needs to be a little over that to bring down the shield really fast.


also, i think the asuran beam was mediocre. had it not needed to sustain the wormhole, the beam would've been far more powerful.

then again, take a planet and stack it with NIG's or APC's and you get the same effect.

[Buba uognarf]

also, i rewatched the Siege today. ten hives put an incredible stress on the shield. the superhive only needs to be a little over that to bring down the shield really fast.


also, i think the asuran beam was mediocre. had it not needed to sustain the wormhole, the beam would've been far more powerful.

then again, take a planet and stack it with NIG's or APC's and you get the same effect.

Can NIG's or APC generate enough energy to keep a wormhole open indefinately? How many would you need. Speculation on your part Killman.

The shield was holding out for days in Siege, huge difference between days and minutes especially considering in 'EATG' Atlantis had 3 ZPMs.

the sat will be destroyed long before it can recharge. unless you want to say that the sattelite can beat 3 hives in 3 minutes before said hives hyperspace next to it and fragment it.


the reason it was so effective was because the wraith thought it was dead. had they known it was effective, they would've blasted it to hell LONG before it would be even CLOSE to charging.

When powered without being damaged the satellite can take out at least 3 Hives according to the Ancient database (this is likely based on experience). The satellite was ready to fire again as soon as the first Hive bit the dust, the conduits rooting power however broke.

Satellite > 304

[stargater1990]

Can NIG's or APC generate enough energy to keep a wormhole open indefinately? How many would you need. Speculation on your part Killman.

The shield was holding out for days in Siege, huge difference between days and minutes especially considering in 'EATG' Atlantis had 3 ZPMs.



When powered without being damaged the satellite can take out at least 3 Hives according to the Ancient database (this is likely based on experience). The satellite was ready to fire again as soon as the first Hive bit the dust, the conduits rooting power however broke.

Satellite > 304

i bet that NIG's could keep a wormhole open indeffinitely because since the asgard could open a wormhole from their galaxy to ours and presumably their only source of power generation is the NIGs and considering that establishing an intergalactic connection requires what has so far been a ZPM then with enough generators it should theoretically be possible.

and considering that they most likely had the generators on some asgard colony i wouldnt imagine that they would have hundreds of NIG's or some insane number of NIG's because their main purpose is just to provide power for the colony so i would imagine that if the average colony had lets say maybe 12 NIG's then maybe twice that many might be able to get the job done, especially if its to a planet thats in the same galaxy.

[Buba uognarf]

i bet that NIG's could keep a wormhole open indeffinitely because since the asgard could open a wormhole from their galaxy to ours and presumably their only source of power generation is the NIGs and considering that establishing an intergalactic connection requires what has so far been a ZPM then with enough generators it should theoretically be possible.

A liquid naquadah cell from a staff weapon together with some fancy wiring to draw 10x the normal amount of power (I think it was said to be 10x?) from a gate allowed the SGC to dial Ida. Obviously a ZPM is not necessary and is infact beyond overkill when dialling another galaxy. If it takes say 0.00000001% of a ZPM to dial another galaxy then a NIG being able to match that isn't particularly impressive.

So far only large numbers of ZPMs and blackholes have been able to keep a wormhole open indefinately, as shown on my thread about ZPMs and NIG's, NIGs are far inferior to ZPMs. Therefore if a large number of ZPMs are needed then a far far far higher number of NIGs would be needed.

and considering that they most likely had the generators on some asgard colony i wouldnt imagine that they would have hundreds of NIG's or some insane number of NIG's because their main purpose is just to provide power for the colony so i would imagine that if the average colony had lets say maybe 12 NIG's then maybe twice that many might be able to get the job done, especially if its to a planet thats in the same galaxy.

Being able to open a wormhole to another galaxy doesn't mean the Asgard could keep one open indefinately.

This is offtopic though, we can continue this in thread;

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=59095

[stargater1990]

A liquid naquadah cell from a staff weapon together with some fancy wiring to draw 10x the normal amount of power (I think it was said to be 10x?) from a gate allowed the SGC to dial Ida. Obviously a ZPM is not necessary and is infact beyond overkill when dialling another galaxy. If it takes say 0.00000001% of a ZPM to dial another galaxy then a NIG being able to match that isn't particularly impressive.

So far only large numbers of ZPMs and blackholes have been able to keep a wormhole open indefinately, as shown on my thread about ZPMs and NIG's, NIGs are far inferior to ZPMs. Therefore if a large number of ZPMs are needed then a far far far higher number of NIGs would be needed.




Being able to open a wormhole to another galaxy doesn't mean the Asgard could keep one open indefinately.

This is offtopic though, we can continue this in thread;

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=59095

i never meant that an NIG even comes close to generating the kind of power of a ZPM but an NIG could still be able to do it if the amount of power required to keep a wormhole open indeffinitely is just like 100 times the normal amount of power because then it could be possible because if intergalactic could be done with 10x the power as normal then intragalactic and open indeffinitely might be possible with enough generators.

also considering that powering atlantis's shield requires ZPM levels of energy and a mark 12 could do that and if an NIG is comprable to a mark 12 then with enough of them you might be able to temporarily match the power output of a zpm and then with enough sets of generators you might be able to do it.

[thekillman]

buba, i never said ONE or TWO can do it. i said, and i'll say again, "put a PLANET full of NIG's or APC's and you get the same".


if the distribution of ZPM's in atlantis is any indication, the asurans have dozens to hundreds.

The shield was holding out for days in Siege, huge difference between days and minutes especially considering in 'EATG' Atlantis had 3 ZPMs.

as i recall

"how long can the shield hold out?"

"if there was no strain, indefinately. with this kind of bombardment, it's under extreme stresses. maybe days."

First Strike.

"the shield is at maximum power"

EATG
"the atmosphere is draining the shield"

"the city needs 3 ZPM's to take off"

"the city is being pushed into the atmosphere"

"i do not have more power. do i keep firing or do i compensate"


clearly, the shield has a limit. if the superhive goes over it (Damage per shot) then we get the familliar damage leaking and the city gets damaged decreasing combat effectivity.




oh and buba, congratz. i always use plural when talking NIGs, yet you always manage to read singular.


the sattelite can only do so much. maybe more power on overal, but if we go look at size and power, the APBW wins clearly.


if trinity is any indication, an APBW is much better, as the trinity weapon was " a stationary version of the sattelite, with one major difference: power "


if the sat was full powered then it might have pulled a kill on all three hives. might.

even then, at the speed the Phoenix pulled off kills, it would've taken much less time to kill 3 hives.



just as the sat in The Siege had an advantage, give a 304 advantage and it mows through hives. give it disadvantage and it looses.

[Psyku]

Couple of years i started a topic about Out of phase, where i thought out that the tech about phase shifting that we have required and if we where to recreate it and put it on missiles it would be one of the perfect shielding penetration. you can't block that frequency unless they shield the out of phase side as well.

[tainor]

I was surprised to see that no one mentioned the Aschen living radioactive material weapon. I mean one was enough to wipe an entire planet clean and it had many delivery methods as stated by the Aschen. It was used by Earth and the Aschen in 2010 to wipe out the Gould and Jaffa from the galaxy by targeting their RNA if I remember correctly.

I was always surprised that Carter never brought this up as she sow and had an idea of how the weapon worked, it could have been a very easy weapon to deploy and destroy the Wraith in Pegasus with.

IMO this is one of the most devastating WMD in Stargate on par with Dakara with its ability to destroy everything on the surface of a planet.

Tain

[Buba uognarf]

i never meant that an NIG even comes close to generating the kind of power of a ZPM but an NIG could still be able to do it if the amount of power required to keep a wormhole open indeffinitely is just like 100 times the normal amount of power because then it could be possible because if intergalactic could be done with 10x the power as normal then intragalactic and open indeffinitely might be possible with enough generators.

also considering that powering atlantis's shield requires ZPM levels of energy and a mark 12 could do that and if an NIG is comprable to a mark 12 then with enough of them you might be able to temporarily match the power output of a zpm and then with enough sets of generators you might be able to do it.

The thing is it apparently requires multiple ZPMs to create that kind of power, multiple ZPMS means ALOT of NIGs. A Mark 12 could power the shields for hundreds of years under no stress, a ZPM can power the shields 'almost' indefinately when under no stress. So there is a large difference between even the Mark 12 and a ZPM.

I just think the number of NIG's needed would be far more than any Asgard would have IMO.

buba, i never said ONE or TWO can do it. i said, and i'll say again, "put a PLANET full of NIG's or APC's and you get the same".


if the distribution of ZPM's in atlantis is any indication, the asurans have dozens to hundreds.

Dozens seems more likely. Well how many are we talking? An impractical amount IMO would be needed.

as i recall

"how long can the shield hold out?"

"if there was no strain, indefinately. with this kind of bombardment, it's under extreme stresses. maybe days."

First Strike.

"the shield is at maximum power"

EATG
"the atmosphere is draining the shield"

"the city needs 3 ZPM's to take off"

"the city is being pushed into the atmosphere"

"i do not have more power. do i keep firing or do i compensate"


clearly, the shield has a limit. if the superhive goes over it (Damage per shot) then we get the familliar damage leaking and the city gets damaged decreasing combat effectivity.

Are you suggesting the shield gets weaker exponentially the more stress you put? Its possible, either that or the Superhive bolts from the 'fully' intergrated Superhive are uber powerful or a combination of the 2.

Either way they're far more powerful than the Asgard beams and Ori weapons judging by what they did to Atlantis.

oh and buba, congratz. i always use plural when talking NIGs, yet you always manage to read singular.

I understood what you meant, I meant that the number of NIG's needed to keep a wormhole open would be ludacris.

the sattelite can only do so much. maybe more power on overal, but if we go look at size and power, the APBW wins clearly.

No it doesn't, APBW's have done minimal damage to Hives before. The satellite looked like it could cut three in half at once if they stood in a line, there's a massive difference in power. Not only that but a ship equiped with several APBW's gets mauled by 3 Hives easily! An Ancient satellite can take on 3, no mention of needing the element of surprise to accomplish this was mentioned. Obviously the element of surprise would be a help but this wasn't a fully operational satellite anyway powered off a powersource like those on a 304 and it would certainly defeat the Hives.

if trinity is any indication, an APBW is much better, as the trinity weapon was " a stationary version of the sattelite, with one major difference: power "

Could a single APBW waste a fleet of Wraith ships? Doubtful. The Trinity gun did, it appeared to be weak later on but it was after 10,000 years perhaps it was damaged?

if the sat was full powered then it might have pulled a kill on all three hives. might.

It was stated to be able to kill all 3 when powered off a Mark I, with a proper powersource there is no doubt.

even then, at the speed the Phoenix pulled off kills, it would've taken much less time to kill 3 hives.

Speed ay? Did you miss the minimal damage part when the Phoenix attacked the second Hive? Did you miss the way it ran instead of turning round and quickly killing the second Hive?

just as the sat in The Siege had an advantage, give a 304 advantage and it mows through hives. give it disadvantage and it looses.

The satellite was stated by the database to be able to take on at least 3 Hives, and dozens of these satellites apparently enforced the entire lantian star system. Logically they have a large range and can handle more than a few Hives.

Even with the advantage a 304 couldn't take on 3 Hives judging by 'The Last Man', a properly functioning satellite could.

[lordofseas]

I was surprised to see that no one mentioned the Aschen living radioactive material weapon. I mean one was enough to wipe an entire planet clean and it had many delivery methods as stated by the Aschen. It was used by Earth and the Aschen in 2010 to wipe out the Gould and Jaffa from the galaxy by targeting their RNA if I remember correctly.

I was always surprised that Carter never brought this up as she sow and had an idea of how the weapon worked, it could have been a very easy weapon to deploy and destroy the Wraith in Pegasus with.

IMO this is one of the most devastating WMD in Stargate on par with Dakara with its ability to destroy everything on the surface of a planet.

Tain

But it'll be stopped by a simple iris on a Stargate. Not much of a weapon when it can be stopped by a metal shield. The Dakara Superweapon, logically, can circumvent this, as it is a wave of energy.

[stargater1990]

The thing is it apparently requires multiple ZPMs to create that kind of power, multiple ZPMS means ALOT of NIGs. A Mark 12 could power the shields for hundreds of years under no stress, a ZPM can power the shields 'almost' indefinately when under no stress. So there is a large difference between even the Mark 12 and a ZPM.

I just think the number of NIG's needed would be far more than any Asgard would have IMO.

yes, i agree that there is a big difference between a mark 12 and a ZPM but the mere fact that it can activate the shield at all proves that it can generate an enormous amount of power and the only reason that a zpm would have been able to do so indefinitely is because it already contains an enormous amount of energy but a mark 12 only has enough energy to power the shield for a few hundred years but thats only because it would get depleted sooner because it actually has to be refueled but if it was properly refueld then theres no reason to think that it couldnt also power the shield indefinitely and the same goes for NIGs.

furthermore, maintaining the shield even when not under stress still requires a large amount of power since in first strike they turned it off to get a little boost so i would hazzard a guess that maintaining it proabably requires maybe 1/8 to 1/4 the power capable of being outputted by the ZPM at any given time because any less and i doubt that it would have really have made that big a difference especially when dealing with the amounts of power needed to fly a city.

and if it takes 1/8 the power of a ZPM outputted at any one time to maintain the shield then you could say that 8 mark 12's would be able to equal a ZPM in output at any one time which i dont think is too unreasonable and if an NIG is equal to or greater than a mark 12, which i think is highly likely, then if it took 4 ZPMs to power a wormhole indefinitely then 32 NIGs could provide the nessisary power but not for nearly as long as a ZPM could because they would most likely have to be refueled but if that was done i dont see why not.

[thekillman]

buba, TBH, i have NO CLUE why the hell our ships keep running. the best i can give is that the APBW's are delicate pieces of technology which can not take a lot before failing.

even then, the sattelite had no protection. it mauling 3 hives in one shot is just the same as a 304 firing all it's APBW's at three hives at once.

also, the sat weapon cuts a hive in half. realistically, if an APBW is fired, it should penetrate the ship, move out the other end without much damage. a hive is so massive, there's no realistic way to kill it easily. well, except internal nuking.


one moment, they apply the rule of "massive ship" and the other time, it might as well be 10 meters long and they apply the rule of "critical hit".

one moment they specifically target the hyperdrive on a cruiser, the next instant half the cruiser goes. one moment, a hit does nothing to a hive, the other time, it blows up the back half.

[Buba uognarf]

yes, i agree that there is a big difference between a mark 12 and a ZPM but the mere fact that it can activate the shield at all proves that it can generate an enormous amount of power and the only reason that a zpm would have been able to do so indefinitely is because it already contains an enormous amount of energy but a mark 12 only has enough energy to power the shield for a few hundred years but thats only because it would get depleted sooner because it actually has to be refueled but if it was properly refueld then theres no reason to think that it couldnt also power the shield indefinitely and the same goes for NIGs.

furthermore, maintaining the shield even when not under stress still requires a large amount of power since in first strike they turned it off to get a little boost so i would hazzard a guess that maintaining it proabably requires maybe 1/8 to 1/4 the power capable of being outputted by the ZPM at any given time because any less and i doubt that it would have really have made that big a difference especially when dealing with the amounts of power needed to fly a city.

and if it takes 1/8 the power of a ZPM outputted at any one time to maintain the shield then you could say that 8 mark 12's would be able to equal a ZPM in output at any one time which i dont think is too unreasonable and if an NIG is equal to or greater than a mark 12, which i think is highly likely, then if it took 4 ZPMs to power a wormhole indefinitely then 32 NIGs could provide the nessisary power but not for nearly as long as a ZPM could because they would most likely have to be refueled but if that was done i dont see why not.

Good points but we know ZPMs can output 2% of their total energy per second when pushed. With that in mind it could be 100 NIG's to match the output of a ZPM or more or less (all speculation), then if we assume a dozen ZPMs were needed to maintain the wormhole it becomes over a 1000 NIGs to accomplish the task. I am in no way trying to pass this off as a fact its just to illustrate that the number of NIGs needed could very well be very very large.

I just personally think no Asgard world had the amount of power the Asurans had with their many ZPMs, therefore the Asgard couldn't have opened a wormhole and held it open indefinately.

buba, TBH, i have NO CLUE why the hell our ships keep running. the best i can give is that the APBW's are delicate pieces of technology which can not take a lot before failing.

even then, the sattelite had no protection. it mauling 3 hives in one shot is just the same as a 304 firing all it's APBW's at three hives at once.

also, the sat weapon cuts a hive in half. realistically, if an APBW is fired, it should penetrate the ship, move out the other end without much damage. a hive is so massive, there's no realistic way to kill it easily. well, except internal nuking.


one moment, they apply the rule of "massive ship" and the other time, it might as well be 10 meters long and they apply the rule of "critical hit".

one moment they specifically target the hyperdrive on a cruiser, the next instant half the cruiser goes. one moment, a hit does nothing to a hive, the other time, it blows up the back half.

Well can 304's power all APBW simultaneously? Could them firing all at once take out 3 Hives in one salvo? I think not. Then there's the fact a 304 has a superior powersource to the Mark I powering the satellite. Judging by the fact that these satellites were a powerful defence against the Wraith they had to have shields or an insane fire rate + range (if the latter is true its superiority grows even higher).

Why should an APBW penetrate the ship completely? To do that it needs to destroy massive amounts of tough alien hull, even if its cutting a thin 1m hole in the ship length wise thats still (if we go by 11km scaling) some 5000+ cubic meters of matter! The satellite carved a hole in the Hive over a kilometer wide and straight through the width of the craft! It dwarfs the APBW in terms of raw damage, we've seen more often than not the APBW don't make big holes. Watching the Deadalus and Apollo opening up the Asuran Aurora for the first time it took what a dozen shots to completely disintegrate the hull.

Yes I agree SG is inconsistant, luckily for me the satellite appeared once so TPTB haven't had a chance to make it rubbish or to change its strength.