The Zero Point Module: Fact or Fiction?

[Buba uognarf]

or maybe they were full and that's all there is

Thats not consistant with the 'blowing up' planets references we have though is it?

[Character]

Funny though, how the only time we've actualy seen a zpm explode, was when 3 were needed to blow up a city ship from inside.

[Buba uognarf]

Funny though, how the only time we've actualy seen a zpm explode, was when 3 were needed to blow up a city ship from inside.

3 weren't needed, they had to be blown together for some reason. Its possible that Mkay purposefully limited the overload or caused the zpm's to overload the cities systems. In Critical Mass Mkay mentions that an intergalactic gate connection would trigger a massive overload, his wording implies there can be different levels of overload.

I find it hard to believe that Mkay, Zelenka and the other the other scientists studying ZPMs would be mistaken about the power of a ZPM by many orders of magnitude.

[Character]

If there was any way mckay could have took a zpm for atlantis, he would have. Yet he didnt/couldnt, so 3 were needed, regardless for what reason. If he would have needed to limit the overload, he wouldnt have needed to overload all 3 zpms.
And i wouldnt be surprised if some petty humans (even if they'r scientists) cant undestand much about 50+ million year more advanced technology.

[Buba uognarf]

If there was any way mckay could have took a zpm for atlantis, he would have. Yet he didnt/couldnt, so 3 were needed, regardless for what reason. If he would have needed to limit the overload, he wouldnt have needed to overload all 3 zpms.
And i wouldnt be surprised if some petty humans (even if they'r scientists) cant undestand much about 50+ million year more advanced technology.

Sorry but Mkay can fix ancient technology and has shown a fairly good grasp of it. Are you really saying that him and Carter and everyone else despite being in contact with ZPMs, using ZPMs and even depleting ZPMs are going to be off by billions of times?

Perhaps all the ZPMs were tied into the system in such a way that they couldn't be overloaded individually? Whatever the reason there's no reason to think that after all the observations they've had of ZPMs they'd be so far off in their estimations.

[TheTraveler]

Well you're assuming that the ZPM's are the power source for the energy being drained or not. And you also assume that he needed more than one ZPM to destroy the planet. In both cases I'd have to argue you're wrong. No offense of course. Assuming for a moment that my premiss is correct and ZPMs encase micro singularities which are outputing energy, then really its the amount of time it takes to store, build up, and then discharge that energy. Secondly, McKay wanted an overkill situation with the replicators, they're nasty boogers that survive alot of things. Simply put he wanted to ensure that the planet they inhabited was completely obliterated.

With that said, ZPMs as described in the series probably could supply power to at least a large City nearly indefinitely. I woulds suspect that the Atlantis city is far more power hungry than the current grid we use today. Further, in series, each ZPM held back the ocean waters of the world Atlantis was found on for nearly 10,000 years. And as I recall it took nearly 20 gigajoules to power the shield. Assuming that only 20 gigajoules was sustained and no other systems on Atlantis weren't (which we know not to be true) that's a sustained output of 20gj over 10,000 years. Thats 200,000gj or 20terrajoules.
One joule is equal to 2.7778×10^-7 kilowatt hours. That turns out to be what 5,555,600,000,000 kilowatt hours over 10,000 years. The average American Household yearly uses 10656 kilowatt hours. That means one average house would be powered for 52,135,885.9 years by one ZPM. Anually New York City uses roughly 4.31 GW of power. (4,310,000 kilowatt hours). Now, if we take 5 555 600 000 000 / 4 310 000 you get 1,289,002.32 years powered by 3 zpms with a steady output of 20gj. Our roughly 432000 years per ZPM at that output to power New York City.

Maybe that will help you understand the power output capability of the ZPM as described in the series.

[Splitsecond]

Well you're assuming that the ZPM's are the power source for the energy being drained or not. And you also assume that he needed more than one ZPM to destroy the planet. In both cases I'd have to argue you're wrong. No offense of course. Assuming for a moment that my premiss is correct and ZPMs encase micro singularities which are outputing energy, then really its the amount of time it takes to store, build up, and then discharge that energy. Secondly, McKay wanted an overkill situation with the replicators, they're nasty boogers that survive alot of things. Simply put he wanted to ensure that the planet they inhabited was completely obliterated.

With that said, ZPMs as described in the series probably could supply power to at least a large City nearly indefinitely. I woulds suspect that the Atlantis city is far more power hungry than the current grid we use today. Further, in series, each ZPM held back the ocean waters of the world Atlantis was found on for nearly 10,000 years. And as I recall it took nearly 20 gigajoules to power the shield. Assuming that only 20 gigajoules was sustained and no other systems on Atlantis weren't (which we know not to be true) that's a sustained output of 20gj over 10,000 years. Thats 200,000gj or 20terrajoules.
One joule is equal to 2.7778×10^-7 kilowatt hours. That turns out to be what 5,555,600,000,000 kilowatt hours over 10,000 years. The average American Household yearly uses 10656 kilowatt hours. That means one average house would be powered for 52,135,885.9 years by one ZPM. Anually New York City uses roughly 4.31 GW of power. (4,310,000 kilowatt hours). Now, if we take 5 555 600 000 000 / 4 310 000 you get 1,289,002.32 years powered by 3 zpms with a steady output of 20gj. Our roughly 432000 years per ZPM at that output to power New York City.

Maybe that will help you understand the power output capability of the ZPM as described in the series.

20Gj over what time span? You've assumed 20Gj for one year, which seems quite small for a sci-fi show. Also you're maths is wrong. 20Tj is 5.56 million kilowatt hours or 1.29 years of New York. 1 ZPM is 0.43 years of New York, but it's still just shy of 100 kg of energy.

[morrismike]

Thats not consistant with the 'blowing up' planets references we have though is it?

Which episode did that occur in? Perhaps the writers were a little sensational as we know they never get the science wrong. There is a probably a world of difference between extractable energy and energy released from an explosion - see I bailed the writers out, happy.

[morrismike]

Funny though, how the only time we've actualy seen a zpm explode, was when 3 were needed to blow up a city ship from inside.

referencing canon from an actual episode is not allowed

[morrismike]

If there was any way mckay could have took a zpm for atlantis, he would have. Yet he didnt/couldnt, so 3 were needed, regardless for what reason. If he would have needed to limit the overload, he wouldnt have needed to overload all 3 zpms.
And i wouldnt be surprised if some petty humans (even if they'r scientists) cant undestand much about 50+ million year more advanced technology.

To come to buba's aid, the original atlantis configuration required 3 zpms in parellel until Janus changed the configuration to 1 with 2 backups.

[morrismike]

With that said, ZPMs as described in the series probably could supply power to at least a large City nearly indefinitely. I woulds suspect that the Atlantis city is far more power hungry than the current grid we use today. Further, in series, each ZPM held back the ocean waters of the world Atlantis was found on for nearly 10,000 years. And as I recall it took nearly 20 gigajoules to power the shield.

Maybe that will help you understand the power output capability of the ZPM as described in the series.

The shield only held back the water immediately above and around it. It makes little difference if atlantis was at the bottom of lake michigan or the pacific ocean as long as the depth is the same in each case. The shape of the field would be self reinforcing and if properly configured (not sure if they had time for this) would consume minimal power. I would say powering a city and 20 GW (~ 20 modern commercial nuclear reactors) is pretty close to what it can really do.

Which episode said it took 20 gigajoules (which is a measure of energy not power BTW) to raise the shields?

[Buba uognarf]

Which episode did that occur in? Perhaps the writers were a little sensational as we know they never get the science wrong. There is a probably a world of difference between extractable energy and energy released from an explosion - see I bailed the writers out, happy.

There maybe some difference yes but not many orders of magnitude. Do you not think Mkay would have commented on the size of the explosion when previously he had asserted that a ZPM could blow up a planet and destroy 1/24 of a solar system?

Who's to say that ZPMs can even release all the potential energy they can extract from the region of subspace time (or whatever it is) they draw power from.

[Character]

Sorry but Mkay can fix ancient technology and has shown a fairly good grasp of it. Are you really saying that him and Carter and everyone else despite being in contact with ZPMs, using ZPMs and even depleting ZPMs are going to be off by billions of times?

Perhaps all the ZPMs were tied into the system in such a way that they couldn't be overloaded individually? Whatever the reason there's no reason to think that after all the observations they've had of ZPMs they'd be so far off in their estimations.

The fact that Mckay can fix ancient tech is extremely stupid, i always disliked it (although its possible they only ever messed with the programing to use reroute systems and use the non broken ones). Carter couldnt make heads or tails of the ancient obelisk transporter in SG1, which i thought was very realistic.
I'd rather say we have no reason to think their observation have been correct, having never seen them tested, although i realy dont know by how much they're off.
And just to clarify here, i'm not arguing that a zpm overloading is equivalent of a small nuke, i'd rather accept the 10^28 figure (BTW maybe you know where the calc for this is?), I just think the 10^35-40 figures are way to high.

Which episode said it took 20 gigajoules (which is a measure of energy not power BTW) to raise the shields?

I can only think of the storm/the eye Atlantis mid season two parter, season 1, where they used lightning to charge the shield.

Do you not think Mkay would have commented on the size of the explosion when previously he had asserted that a ZPM could blow up a planet and destroy 1/24 of a solar system?

The qoute from which your taking the 1/24 figure is very much open to interpretation, he could have simply meant "more than enough". Previously he said arcturus makes zpms look like alkaline bateries, so i'd asume its far more powerfull than just 24x.

PS. Come to think of it, this whole ZPM power discusion seems somewhat offtopic.

[TheTraveler]

Ok my math's were wrong, and on the conservative side. The shield uses 20giga joules as a steady power output of work. A gigajoule is a measurement of a gigawatt's work load. One Joule is 2.7778×10^-7 kilowatt hours. A joule is 1kg*m^2*s^-2 or the work required to move an electric charge of one coulomb through an electrical potential difference of one volt; or one coulomb volt, with the symbol C·V. That means for the force of the sheild to hold back substantially (and assumingly balanced) the water. You're talking alot of power needed per second. In other words that is 20gigajoules sustained over 10,000 years (according to the episode where Weir was found in a stasis pod). Originally Atlantis ran on three ZPMs paralleled in powering, but the person who helpd Weir made it so that the city could run with a sequence of ZPMs which had to be replaced on a schedule to ensure the sheild remained, thus Weir being stuck in a stasis pod.

Now 3 zpms, running at 20gj (just for the sheild) over 10,000 years. Now I calculated it at 20gj per year to get to the 200,000 tj. So technically speaking my math was wrong, because it is a sustained output that I was measuring here. But I was trying to show the magnitude in power. In reality that is 20gj per second, 120 gj per min, 7200gj per hour, 172800 gj (or 1.728 tj) per day. That's 63072000gj per year and multiply that by 10,000 years you get 630720000000gj total. We know that one third of this is the power output limit of a ZPM as they had to be switched out to make sure the shield remained powered. So one ZPM has a max output of 210240000000gj over 333 years roughly.

Now New York uses only 4.31 Gigawatts of Electricity per year. I say electricity here, not over all power which is something like 1027gw/year. But the 1027 accounts for gas usage and general materials (like food, water, trash, etc).

Now 1 GJ = 277.78 kWh, So the amount of wattage a ZPM puts out over 333 years is equal to 58400467200000 kwh which if translated to yearly is 175376778378.378...kwh per year 175,376,778,378.378 kwh per year, or 175 376.778gwh/year. A ZPM could power 40,785.2973 New York Cities for 333 years.

(BTW: This-"20Gj over what time span? You've assumed 20Gj for one year, which seems quite small for a sci-fi show. Also you're maths is wrong. 20Tj is 5.56 million kilowatt hours or 1.29 years of New York. 1 ZPM is 0.43 years of New York, but it's still just shy of 100 kg of energy." makes no sense. 20gj is 5,555,600,000 kwh. 1 Terrajoule is 1,000,000,000,000 joules so 20,000,000,000,000 j, or 20,000 gj. Which then is roughly 5,555,600,000,000 kwh, or roughly 5.5556 terawatt hours. Get it?)

(NY Power Authority http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/PollyHo.shtml, http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache...s&client=opera)

[Character]

Why are you assuming the shield used 20GJ per second? 20GJ was needed to activate the shield, and then run it for significantly more than one second using that initial 20GJ.