Auroras Did Average, 304s Did Poorly

[mickhhh]

^Could be. However, so far as we know, the Asurans had everything the Ancients did, ZPMS to City Ships to Auroras.

except not as good. this really needs to be answered on the show. lack of ZPMs or lack of tech i just hope they say something

[Mister Oragahn]

The rationalization hurtz.
The fleet was amazingly concentrated over one spot, for a fleet supposedly covering a whole planet (an initial claim I'm not even sure is proved).
Coming around the planet within a few minutes shouldn't be a problem for the Auroras either.
Above all, it's been said a thousand times: drone spam. End of story, and that's just one of the endings.
Or big red beams of doom fired from the surface. Or pulse cannon barrage.

Please people, stop with those threads. You're going through such efforts as a concern for logic and consistency, but there are times you can't bridge the whole rift of nonsense established by writers.

Just claim that Weirator sent a virus, and all human crews expected this (without saying a word about it on screen...).

[YodaMate]

There is a major factor missing that could shed light on the battle. Basically, the question of whose side was the Weir we saw at the end on ?

If she is Oberoth-faction (and thus human Weir with nanites in her brain) then it's possible that the whole defence was designed to fail so that the Tau'ri and Wraith would believe the Asurans to be destroyed.

This would be an unusual tactic, but could be explained by Oberoth's fear of the Asgard beam weapons (the one truly superior technology the Tau'ri possess) and/or wanting the Wraith to resume their civil war.

It could even have been a planned purge to try and rid themselves of the attack code, remember these are sentient beings who are been forced to attack the Wraith. If a handful of individuals had been able to resist the code, it makes sense to eliminate the rest. By doing it this way their enemies wouldn't be asking questions.

If Weir is Niam-faction (and thus the repaired Repli-Weir, probably mind-wiped or even completely constructed fresh), then they could've sabotaged the defenses to stop the other Asurans messing with their plans.

If Larrin was rushing off after the battle (remember how mysterious she was acting) to meet with Weir and the Aurora Weir was in was actually Larrin's, then the sabotage may have been made to protect the Travellers, or the Travellers could've been given weapons that messed with Asuran systems. Whilst this deal may seem strange, the Travellers' main problem (no ship-building resources) could be solved by allying with an Asuran faction.

In any case, since the events leading up and including the battle unfolded according to a plan that we know little about, then we are missing vital information. As for the Tau'ri, they were just glad to have survived the attack and didn't look a gift horse in the mouth.

[2ndgenerationalteran]

As a request to the mods, could you combine this thread, pages of the Asgard Beam thread and the Asuran Aurora thread under a new name that would fit under the issue that is being argued so there isnt much jumping around?

[Randar]

I cannot be the only one who is getting annoyed by people constantly saying that the Aurora class vessels are crap because of what they saw in Be All My Sins Remembered. Based on one battle i do not think its fair to say that all Auroras suck. I agree they did not have ZPMs plugged in, but thats not the point. They exceeded our expectations of the Aurora class based on what we have seen already.

The Asuran fleet was evenly placed in orbit when the battle began, we attacked less than half the fleet because our attack was not evenly spaced out throughout the entire orbit of Asuras, logically why would we do that considering that they are the larger force they wouldn't run but convene on our location and annihilate us. The allied fleet struck a portion of at most 1/3 the orbiting fleet. Of course some joined after but many were not able to engage in battle. Our shock and awe attack took out one of the 5 Auroras killed in total, many of the auroras took damage before shields were raised and consequentially many probably were not operating at 100% after the initial attack. of the 10 ships 9 remained to fight against the allied fleet of about 15 ships, already they are out numbered and caught off guard. 2 Aurora kills were in the background so no explanation can be given but for the remaining two kills can be. The first kill was by a 304 which swooped in taking fire for the hive and shooting at an unshielded Aurora, the second was by sheppard who was firing on an Aurora that was running away, the only reason the Aurora would run would be because it's shields had failed and they would no longer be safe in battle. we know ancient shields stop drones and we saw the Traveler's Aurora (TA) fire a salvo which some were intercepted (by drones, which may i remind you doing so would be nearly impossibly hard) and the others struck the fleeing ship.

There was only one confirmed kill made by the Asuran fleet and that would be the traveler ship, but in the background of the same scene Shep killed the fleeing Aurora you can see a Aurora fire a salvo into a hive which starts exploding (assume kill 2). The scene in the beginning where there is a hive taking a tremendous pounding and starts having explosions we may be able to assume a possible third kill. The scene following of Todd with his "hull regeneration" line is actually ambiguous because we dont know if the hive in the previous scene was his. In the end the Allied fleet was on its knees, the hives were badly damaged, the traveler's ships were damaged, the 304s were brought to their knees trading offense for defense by rerouting power to weapons and put it on shields. Yes their kill count was far lower than what we expected but still they were out numbered and believed they were holding the line, not engaging in a battle that would result in the survival of their kind.

The explanation of why no drones came from the surface would be that there would have been a brief moment of shock for the Asurans both in orbit and on the planet. at most i give about 25 seconds of hectic shock then they compose them selves. Within a very short time period Mckay beams in and takes over the city's ZPMs meaning if he sees defenses coming on line he can shut them down.

4 losses in 3 minutes when out numbered and recovering from a surprise attack is definitely not far more than we could have expected from the Auroras. i dont see why people say "Aw, now the auroras are the crappiest of all stargate ships" when they went down in a reasonable number. Even before the episode aired if you said the number of Asuran Auroras actually fighting and the quantity and type of each ship they were fighting the expected losses of the Auroras would most definitely be around 3-5. Even people who expected more losses because the upgraded 304s come into the picture dont commend the Auroras for doing well even though their expectation of the ship were exceeded.

Pat two: 304s Did Poorly.
The 304s in battle did seemingly horribly against the Auroras. The only kill made was to a damaged Aurora that had depleted shields. Even in the individual kills made before that the Asuran ship was taken out when they had no shields active. Fact is that we have never seen a 304 and Aurora fight a fair battle. I'm not saying it won't do well and its weapons are ineffective but just how the battle of Asuras played out it would imply that the 304s were having difficulty dealing with Auroras that were battle ready. If they were Super Powerful there should have been more kills, other than just one we saw. Even if the other two kills were made by the 304s that doesnt sound very impressive anymore with one kill per minute.

while i won't argue the point in the defensive aspect of the Auroras, they simply seemed to suck offensively compared to what we have seen from an Aurora before, being able to destroy a Hive in no time (No Man's Land). and if we take that aspect into account, at some point all seven Hive should likely have been overwhelmed with drones, while the Travelers and 304s probably wouldn't have faired much better.

we know for a fact that the Asuran Auroras did fire drones, but why not like we see in No Man's Land? even with the surprise, and spread out forces the offensive ability of a single Aurora is impressive, and the allied losses i think should have been higher...

EDIT: looks like thats already been discussed...

[apollo22]

it has been said in another post that i think it was Joseph Mallozi that said the reason the asuran auroras did so poorly was because they ancients. he said that they were just good replicas because remember that the asurans just imitate the ancients and they have probably never known the true power of the auroras because they have probably never been on them. they could have just gotten the design when they saw the auroras destroying their home for the first time and that is how they got the design right. so they were good replicas and that is it. this could also explain why they had trouble firing massive amounts of drones at the same time.

[RepliVeggie]

it has been said in another post that i think it was Joseph Mallozi that said the reason the asuran auroras did so poorly was because they ancients. he said that they were just good replicas because remember that the asurans just imitate the ancients and they have probably never known the true power of the auroras because they have probably never been on them. they could have just gotten the design when they saw the auroras destroying their home for the first time and that is how they got the design right. so they were good replicas and that is it. this could also explain why they had trouble firing massive amounts of drones at the same time.

If that were a fleet of real Auroras made by the Ancients. They wouldn't have lost even one ship. Their sublight can go .999 the speed of light. Everyone Aurora around the planet would have been to the fight in seconds. Thousands of drones would have swiss cheesed the fleet just like happened to Anubis. JM said it. People try to ignore it. But its fact. The Asurans weren't up to par. Ancients obviously limited there ability to reproduce the Ancient tech. People say the Ancients are dumb and bad at war tactics but I don't think they are. The Ancients fought wars. They knew what to do. Any army would do the same thing the Ancients did. If your ships were winning victory after victory for who knows how many years you would be bold with your ships too.

[delrey]

If that were a fleet of real Auroras made by the Ancients. They wouldn't have lost even one ship. Their sublight can go .999 the speed of light. Everyone Aurora around the planet would have been to the fight in seconds. Thousands of drones would have swiss cheesed the fleet just like happened to Anubis. JM said it. People try to ignore it. But its fact. The Asurans weren't up to par. Ancients obviously limited there ability to reproduce the Ancient tech. People say the Ancients are dumb and bad at war tactics but I don't think they are. The Ancients fought wars. They knew what to do. Any army would do the same thing the Ancients did. If your ships were winning victory after victory for who knows how many years you would be bold with your ships too.

Thank you,greened. me 2ndgen and others have tried to make this apparent to others. Asurans are not the ancients. Our 304's did great, but they are also fighting the ever stupid asurans, who are deff not even close to as smart as the MW reps. We simply dont know how they would perform against a 100% ancient aurora.

Also It would make sense as others have said here too that the asurans only had sensors on there city ship. So when it went away= no sensors for there city. And the asurans even once we entered there space may not have thought us a real threat, keep in mind they did not know anything about there lost ships. They may not have thought we had the power to do so, and thought another enemy was killing them. Overall the reps are not very intelligent.

[mickhhh]

the Asuran Auroras did do poorly but not of a lack of ZPMs but becuse of a lack of tech. cos if no ZPM theory was true the Asurans would not have build Auroras classes. cos if the Asurans new they were not going to put ZPMs in the Aurora's they would have known they would be quite weak for a race with Ancient knowledge. so they would have built some thing different that would suit the power they have. instead of drones they would have give them beam weapons like the 1 on the Ancient satellite and maybe a sheild that requires less power.
i think a lack of tech makes more sense rather that a lack of ZMPs.
just think about it

[JSPuddlejumper]

Since the Asurans imitated the Ancients, then they would imitiate Aurora without ZPMs (which were used by the Ancients after the Wraith captured Aurora's with ZPMs, which the Wraith used for their own purposes (Todds explanation).

Otherwise, it makes no sense that the Asurans can build City Ships, beam satellites, ZPMs easy but cannot make Aurora's to specs.

Because Larrens Aurora does not have a ZPM either, and it fired only a few drones at a time just like the Asuran ones.

Or plot hole device (mistake by the producer), so the Allied forces could win against the Aurora's.

[mickhhh]

Since the Asurans imitated the Ancients, then they would imitiate Aurora without ZPMs (which were used by the Ancients after the Wraith captured Aurora's with ZPMs, which the Wraith used for their own purposes (Todds explanation).

Otherwise, it makes no sense that the Asurans can build City Ships, beam satellites, ZPMs easy but cannot make Aurora's to specs.

Because Larrens Aurora does not have a ZPM either, and it fired only a few drones at a time just like the Asuran ones.

Or plot hole device (mistake by the producer), so the Allied forces could win against the Aurora's.

they do imitate the ancients but it makes no sense to not use ZPMs in Aurora's. if the ancients did not use them (which there is no proof) the Asurans would not follow a weakness.
plus we dont even no that Larrens does not have a ZPM cos when it destoryed that Asuran Aurora it did fire a lot of drones just like in no mans land maybe. not quite as much but still a lot more than the Asurans.
ZPMs would probly be 1 of the first things the ancients give them and the city ship we dont no what tech it has, its shields might not be as good as atlantis. as for the satellite it could be a new tech cos we have not seen the ancients use 1.
i think a plot hole could be right cos they should have said something about it on the show by now. if they dont then the debate is open

[RepliVeggie]

Asurans are not the ancients. Our 304's did great, but they are also fighting the ever stupid asurans, who are deff not even close to as smart as the MW reps.

Overall the reps are not very intelligent.

I used to think that idea was preposterous. But after seeing the episodes involving he Asurans it is obvious to me that limitations were placed upon them. If they started building there cities and ships out of nanites we would be so screwed.

[delrey]

Since the Asurans imitated the Ancients, then they would imitiate Aurora without ZPMs (which were used by the Ancients after the Wraith captured Aurora's with ZPMs, which the Wraith used for their own purposes (Todds explanation).

Otherwise, it makes no sense that the Asurans can build City Ships, beam satellites, ZPMs easy but cannot make Aurora's to specs.

Because Larrens Aurora does not have a ZPM either, and it fired only a few drones at a time just like the Asuran ones.

Or plot hole device (mistake by the producer), so the Allied forces could win against the Aurora's.

And did the asurans ever know any tactics used against the wraith? I think the only time they fought the wraith is when they had rebuilt themselves after the ancients tried to kill them and the ancients were holding out in atlantis, as the wraith said they had the ancients on there knees or whatever and this scourge came out of nowhere, there an abomination etc, and the wraith shut them down. The wraith captured zpms from the ancients very early in the war it would seem, hence there explosion of population from the cloning.

It is likely that the asurans built the city ship, il give you that, but the writers could just as easily say they found it and brought it back. And who said anything they built was up to spec?You cant ignore what Joe M said.

And once again you are ignoring pages of reasons from the other thread why cannot compare these auroras we have seen to a 100% ancient aurora.

[RepliVeggie]

And did the asurans ever know any tactics used against the wraith? I think the only time they fought the wraith is when they had rebuilt themselves after the ancients tried to kill them and the ancients were holding out in atlantis, as the wraith said they had the ancients on there knees or whatever and this scourge came out of nowhere, there an abomination etc, and the wraith shut them down. The wraith captured zpms from the ancients very early in the war it would seem, hence there explosion of population from the cloning.

It is likely that the asurans built the city ship, il give you that, but the writers could just as easily say they found it and brought it back. And who said anything they built was up to spec?You cant ignore what Joe M said.

And once again you are ignoring pages of reasons from the other thread why cannot compare these auroras we have seen to a 100% ancient aurora.

Yup. The War may have still ended in the favor of the Ancients if the Asurans had not been shutdown. Makes me wonder how they found out how. Did they capture some Aurora with knowledge?

[Jaffa Teal'c]

ya the auroras did average because they were built by the Asurans. they look the same but dont have shields and didn't have zpms to power them.