Ancients, Wraith ships downgraded?

[Col. Matarrese]

The Romon army didn't beat the US army, they got the US army to rebel against their overlords while the Romon army sat back and watched the chaos unfold. And in truth it's much more akin to fighting the British army...

I hope that post was just to make yourself look smart...

[thekillman]

you cant be serious. look at "the siege". 4 wraith hiveships fire for 2 seconds and already you can count 30 bolts headin for atlantis. if they come with 12 hives agains an asuran ship, then the asuran ship cant survise such a massive amount of firepower. didnt it say somewhere that goauld motherships had impacts of a few kilotons?? these have an impact beyond. take all hives[aprox 60] and send them to earth. they would incinerate earth with few problems. the reason they havent incinerated the asurans would be because the asurans would adapt to their weaponsfire. so far nukes would be the only way to take them out, as the disruptor doesnt work. any type of energy based weapons would give them immunity to it. nukes not. the problem is: what if they raise shields? nukes would do much damage to it.

and about ancients ships: be serious. when have we ever seen a fully powered 100% working ancient ship? [asurans dont count]

oh and about the asurans: in tao of rodney rodney made shield upgrades. what if they included higher resistance against drones and a drone jammer making them unable to pass through

[An-Alteran]

Answer: Then Earth battlecruisers would be DOA (dead on arrival, since railguns are ineffective against mothership shields) against Hives.

They are dead on arrival.

We have done descent damage to a Hive ship... once (excluding, obviously, beamed nukes-that doesn't count anyway since that is glorified sabotaugue).

We got one nuke through to a Hive caught by surprise, and it disabled it hit it in the vulnerable rear.
We were also able to with massively concentrated rail gun fire destroy a few darts and cause some descent damage throuhg secondary explossions when firing into the gapping hole in the Hive known as the Hanger bay.

The Daedalus proceeded to get its shields blown off.
And the Orion's easy dispatch of the other Hive ship, and its ability to withstand a massive bombardment with barely any power was the only reason they survived at all.

Yeah, the director always wants to keep Earth the heavy underdogs,

Yes.

that is why we never seen Tollan ion cannons on earth,

We don't see Tollan Ion cannons because Anubis rendered them useless.

no Asgard weapons, killing the Asgard and the Tollans to keep it that way etc.

We have Asgard weapons now. And all their knowledge.

But, they made the Ancients ships too weak, and thus made the Wraith seem quite weak.

Destroying a Wraith ship seconds with one burst of Drones from a 10,000 year old damaged ship with barely enough power to keep any one system up and running is hardly 'weak'.

The Ancients ships must have at least Ori shields,

Maybe they do?

Note:
It takes over 1 minute of fire from a Wraith Hive ship to destroy a Daedalus class.
It takes 2-3 shots from an Orii main cannon to do the same.

An Orii ship can destroy a Daedalus class in 1/6th the time at most.
Probably even faster.

beams weapons

They have no apparent emmiter.

and drones.

They have Drones.

At least Ori shields because of the immense strength of Atlantis shields.

Maybe they do.

Ori ships have beam weapons and ion cannons,

They have a beam weapon and pulse cannons.
Ion cannons were Tollan weapons that are now useless.

why can't the Aurora's have beam weapons and drones?

They have Drones. You watch the show right?

Beam weapons seem rather large.

Ancient satellite had a massive laser.

It was a particle beam.

weak shields

Shields that can withstand about 4-5 minutes of fire from a Wraith cruiser with only 20% left of their barely powered shields with a recharge rate of likely 0%, is hardly weak.

And 19 Drones can destroy a Cruiser in like two seconds easily.

That means a single Aurora could destroy a fleet of a Hundred cruisers in one seceral second long barrage.
It would likely be destroyed also though.

It could destropy a Dozen hives

and not very fast ships.

A ship that can, with a ZPM, travel near the speed of light on normal engines alone, and come to a stop in seconds from that speed is hardly "slow".

With a ZPM its intergalactic hyperdrives probably are the fastest around.

Don't forget, Ancient knowledge allowed O'neill to turn a normal Tel'tac hyperdrive into an intergalactic hyperdrive as fast as a Daedalus' classes!
That was, again, Ancient knowledge + a Goa'uld Tel'tak cargo ship hyperdrive!

Why can't organic ships have shields, the Wraith Hives do everything else that inorganic ships can do.

Except stay in hyperdrive for long periods of time... because the Hive's are organic and the radiation damages them.

As for drones penetrating shields...The Wraith would have eventually come out with a countermeasure.

Assuming there is one besides massive energy from dozens of ZPMs (IE: Asuran Sattelite Weapon).

The Wraith came out with a countermeasure for Asgard beams in about a day!

Jamming an information stream is a little different than blocking a weapon that undermines the very basis of shield technology: the ability to block things.

How do you know the Wraith didn't try using ship shields, but simply didn't develope them further because the Drones just went right through them?
So they dedicated the shield research teams and materials to Weapons design and ship building?

There is a titanic disconnect between Atlantis shields and Ancient warship shields.

Really, how can Atlantis have that kind of shield strength?

ZPMs?
Atlantois has large and numerous generators?
Massive power conduits built into the superstructure of the city allowing massive amounts of energy to flow through?

WTF haven't they been able to incorporate that tech to any of their other ships?

Their normal ships are not 3 mile long cities? With shield generators likely the size of small skyscrapers?

They made Atlantis shields out of this world (quite unrealistic, like the Asuran satellite shields), but their regular ships have piss poor shields in comparison.

Atlantis' shields and Asuran Sattelite shields are based on a constant feed of energy.
All normal ship shields are not solid walls (even the Daedalus with a ZPM had heat seeping through when it was deflecting that solar flare).
They seem to be based on Buffers.

Finally, the show is too human centric (like Star Trek). Humans saving the universe. SGC should have gotten a lot of help from the Asgard, instead poor writing killed them off.

Protecting us for years? Then giving us hyperdrives and shields, and then in the end all their tech and knowledge? Is not helping us?

How cool would it have been to see a fleet of O'Neill's fighting Ori ships or Hives alongside Earth ships?

Very very cool. The writers should have done that.

How come Earth never got more help from the Tollans?

They didn't want to risk repeating their past mistakes and get earth destroyed with tech way above our understanding?

Apparently you didn't pay attention to the plethora of backstory information.

And even if they had helped us, Anubis built ships that had shields immune to the ion cannons.

Instead the writers killed them off as well.

In a well written episode with a plot you apparently missed.

Atlantis is a bigger ship. It has more room for bigger shield emitters and is powered by up to three ZPMs.

Don't forget that the city's framework is bassically one big power conduit.
Apparently Atlantis' and her shields are designed around ZPMs. While normal ships are not, and use conventional powering systems, normal conduits, and normal generators.

[JSPuddlejumper]

I do not see how you can dispute the fact that Ancient Aurora's are quite weak compared to say: The Odyssey with Asgard upgrades or Ori ships.

Now they should not be IMO: Ancient ships should have incredilbe shields, lasers (they already had them on their satellite weapon which easily destroy a Hive in 1 shot) and drones.

[thekillman]

i agree with an-alteran. and JAP, it isnt a laser but a particle beam.
the laser cut through a hiveship going directly for its main systems. and the recharge wa what destroyed it.

the ancients have the most powerfull type of shield in existence: its the ONLY, AND I SAY ONLY!!!!!!!!!!! race so far that have damage-leak proof shields. you give the shields the required output running at 100% efficiency and voila: leak proof shield. the ori didnt have them. they got plenty of power and pumped so much in the shield that it blocked all incoming damage.
the asgard exploited the energy leak flaw in the ori's dhields and built an directed energy weapon wich applied so much pressure on a small spot of maybe a square metre that the shields could not withstand it and damage leaks through, and so ori ships can be defeated. they used the fact that the odyssey had a zpm, and added a powercore for extra power. without both it would be little more effective than goald weapons. now back to ancients: try the odyssey against an aurora. now as the ancients shields are leak proof running on normal output[unlike the ori who just pumped enough juice in them to do so] the odyssey would have no advantage. still the weapon's impact is huge, but the shields will hold untill the powersupply isnt enough. at that time it's weapons wouldve destroyed the odyssey.

next: ori VS ancients. take 4 aurora's against 4 ori motherships.


the aurora fire their drones at 1 ori vessel, and destroy it
the ori fires at 1 aurora wich survives
nest the aurora destroy annother while the ori nearly take out 1 aurora.

eventually about 2 aurora survive and the ori are destroyed.

you get my point? if each aurora fires about 100 drones, then x4=400drones.
400 drones against an ori vessel will destroy it

[Darien]

I do not see how you can dispute the fact that Ancient Aurora's are quite weak compared to say: The Odyssey with Asgard upgrades or Ori ships.

Now they should not be IMO: Ancient ships should have incredilbe shields, lasers (they already had them on their satellite weapon which easily destroy a Hive in 1 shot) and drones.

Fact is we have no way of knowing how powerful a fully operational Aurora class ship is as we have never seen one. All we have encountered so far were highly damaged, barely operational ones so we can only make assumptions about their real strength.

[Ripple in Space]

Why don't the Wraith have shields?
Actually they do, we've seen them. They don't use shields on their ships because their only formidable enemy was the Lanteans. Lanteans have been seen using two types of weapons, Beam Cannons and Drones. Each shred through shields, therefore shield emitters would just be a waste of resources. It would be like sending out modern troops with shields made of oaktag/posterboard, it would be an inconvenience and serve no purpose.

Why are Lantean shield weak?
They're not. We have yet to see a fully functioning, fully powered, and fully crewed Lantean warship of any type in battle. The tech is even above McKay & Carter's heads. I imagine a pristine Aurora operated by real Lanteans would tear through any of the mini-Armadas we've seen.

Have Wraith ships been downgraded?
It would make sense if they used to have Warships that have long been retired. Hives are basically like cities/countries to them, designed to carry lots of Wraith for cullings. Maybe they had Warships built for fighting...

[thekillman]

say you have an enemy tank with superior armour and superior weapons wich easily penetrate your armour, no matter how powerfull. what wouls you do? increase armour to resist the enemy tank, or upgrade your weapons, so you can defeat him? and if its a few enemy tanks, and you are still inferior, would you waste time trying to advance or build a heck of a lot of existing tanks wich can damage the enemy tanks but not easily destroy them?

doesnt it seem obvious?

and no they dont have shields. but was it ever said the wraith have a powersource powerful enough to power such a massive vessel?

oh and back to my tank thing, if you have a certain space, would you use all space for armour against an enemy wich can easily penetrate it or use it for bigger guns to kill your enemy easier? the wraith use much of their power for guns to get even more out of them. makes me wonder why earth never stole some of their weapons, or any wraith tech at all?

[Ripple in Space]

say you have an enemy tank with superior armour and superior weapons wich easily penetrate your armour, no matter how powerfull. what wouls you do? increase armour to resist the enemy tank, or upgrade your weapons, so you can defeat him? and if its a few enemy tanks, and you are still inferior, would you waste time trying to advance or build a heck of a lot of existing tanks wich can damage the enemy tanks but not easily destroy them?

Regardless of their efforts, the only shields that have ever been shown to be resistant to Lantean tech is Lantean/Ancient tech. Unless the Wraith could create Atlantis-level shields, and a powersource equal to unlimited ZPMs, the shields would be completely useless, and just a drain on power & resources.

and no they dont have shields. but was it ever said the wraith have a powersource powerful enough to power such a massive vessel?

The Wraith do have shield tech, we've even seen it on screen... They just don't use it on their ships for the reasons previously stated.

[An-Alteran]

I do not see how you can dispute the fact that Ancient Aurora's are quite weak compared to say: The Odyssey with Asgard upgrades or Ori ships.

Now they should not be IMO: Ancient ships should have incredilbe shields, lasers (they already had them on their satellite weapon which easily destroy a Hive in 1 shot) and drones.

They are beam weapons, not lasers.

And I love this.

I give you all the points, and you respond with "I do not see how you can dispute the fact ..."

So its like:

'proof you are wrong, proof you are wrong, proof you are wrong' -Me.
'I can't believe you you can dispute the fact that I am right'-You.

[Empress Vajnraa]

I doubt that there is a serious consensus amongst the Powers that be, on the power of the shielding. A shield is usually as strong as the plot needs it to be.

[Lord You]

Why are Ancient shields weaker than Ori or Asgard? Why don't the Wraith ships have shields?

Answer: Then Earth battlecruisers would be DOA (dead on arrival, since railguns are ineffective against mothership shields) against Hives.

It is hard to believe that Hives ships such as this can destroy Ancient warships.

Thus Ancient ships were downgraded: Weaker shields and no lasers.

That is also the reason why the Asuran ship was weak (it did no damage we can see against the Apollo). How else can downgraded Hives and cruisers fight against the Asurans?

Conclusion: All this mediocrity was necessary because of the inherent weakness of Earth ship weapons.

The writers could have gotten around this by not destroying powerful allies of Earth: Asgard, Tollans and To'kra. God forbid if other species aside from humans did any damage against a powerful enemy. And sharing tech with Earth? Almost no way. Just to keep Earth the enormous underdogs who miraculously win always.

Realistically, SGC/Earth beating the G'ould is akin to the Roman Army beating the US army of the 21st century. Let's not mention the Ori, Replicators or Wraith.

The Ancients and Wraith really weren't downgraded. Once you really get to know legends, they never seem so legendary. In fact any Wraith or human vessel has never been shown to be a match for any Ancient ships. Human ships excell in three points compared with the Wraith and Goa'uld: Asgard transporters, Asgard hyperdrives, and Asgard shields. However, their weapons suck. However, their shields are not 2x as powerful as Goa'uld shields (otherwise they would withstand at least 2 Ori beams). Their transporters can be blocked, and their hyperdrive is weaker than Ori or Ancient technology. Their weapons suck compared with everyone. They were only able to take out hiveships with tactics and help (like the element of surprise, help from a damaged ancient battlecruiser, extra power from the Asgard core or a ZPM, etcetera). In an even fight, most enemies seem able to defeat the humans. The only thing which saves us is picking our battles wisely.

[jonos101]

The Ancients and Wraith really weren't downgraded. Once you really get to know legends, they never seem so legendary. In fact any Wraith or human vessel has never been shown to be a match for any Ancient ships. Human ships excell in three points compared with the Wraith and Goa'uld: Asgard transporters, Asgard hyperdrives, and Asgard shields. However, their weapons suck. However, their shields are not 2x as powerful as Goa'uld shields (otherwise they would withstand at least 2 Ori beams). Their transporters can be blocked, and their hyperdrive is weaker than Ori or Ancient technology. Their weapons suck compared with everyone. They were only able to take out hiveships with tactics and help (like the element of surprise, help from a damaged ancient battlecruiser, extra power from the Asgard core or a ZPM, etcetera). In an even fight, most enemies seem able to defeat the humans. The only thing which saves us is picking our battles wisely.

AMEN to that

[thekillman]

amen to that too

[from_orion]

I doubt that there is a serious consensus amongst the Powers that be, on the power of the shielding. A shield is usually as strong as the plot needs it to be.

I think they do a pretty good job of making battle senarioes match realistic abilities.