Weapons in "Unending" - Massive SPOILERS for "Unending"

[BOFH]

"So, what should we expect to get when we hook a ZPM up to our shields? One would assume that a one or the other scenario would prevail. Perhaps the ZPM will simply take the place of the buffer, and the shields will simply be dependent on the ZPM's remaining power. Or, maybe the ZPM will simply be able to recharge the shield buffer much faster than our own power generator is capable of doing.
This is not what we see in the show. Instead of either of these, the shields themselves seem upgraded in a way that doesn't make sense. They are able to take more punishment, but nowhere near what they would take if the ZPM was actually fully powering them, AND they do not replenish the shields any faster than normal. So how does hooking the ZPM up to our power systems actually provide the shield upgrades that it does? I'm open to suggestions."




Oh, notice how you completely ignore the fact that I proved you wrong already about the shields being powered by a ZPM in the case of the Daedalus when it first reached Atlantis.

In order to help you understand this, allow me to point out that the difference between the Atlantis shield and the shielding on the Odyssey can be very simply explained:

The Odyssey uses Asgard shields. Not Ancient cityship shields.

The shields on Atlantis are vastly different in operation and configuration even to Aurora-class Lantean shields, and modified puddle jumper cloakshields. Atlantis has 10 separate shield generators, providing a much more layered shield, allowing for regeneration of individual layers, maximizing the power flow from a ZPM (which is capable of providing... I think it was 1% of its total capacity every second?). With a single generator (as on puddle jumpers, Aurora class ships, and BC-404s), efficiency is limited - although GREATLY enhanced by the improved power flow from a ZPM, as evidenced by the Daedalus and Odyssey's improved shield performance when using ZPMs as their main power source.

Notice, for example, how the Odyssey - after being outfitted with a ZPM - is able to withstand a LOT more beating than when it was previously running on standard Naquadah generators, including a full-on shot from an Ori Battlecruiser.

[Mister Oragahn]

Fine. Now show me where they say the ZPM powers any system before they go into 50 years worth of bullet time?

[Jimbo-DR]

It doesn't matter what kind of shields they are, the disparity still exists. And I'm questioning Caldwell's line in that episode as much as I question your conjecture. All shows have inconsistancy, and Stargate has its fair share of them, as does any other Sci Fi show.
There is also no evidence that the Aurora Class shields are really any different in design than the Atlantis shields, other than the fact that their power source is likely a "buffer" and not powered strictly by the ZPM.

Irregardless, in all seriousness be a little more polite. You've got a total of 8 posts on this forum and half of them are rude. We can debate these things without you acting disdainful.

[BOFH]

Fine. Now show me where they say the ZPM powers any system before they go into 50 years worth of bullet time?

We've already been told that in previous episodes. Why else would the ship HAVE a ZPM in the first place?

[Mister Oragahn]

Oh, notice how you completely ignore the fact that I proved you wrong already about the shields being powered by a ZPM in the case of the Daedalus when it first reached Atlantis.

You're missing the very possibility that even if the ZPM was powering the Odyssey when it went to Orilla, there's no proof that it still was powering the ship's shields, and/or weapons after that. Or even the hyperdrive.

Jimbo has a very good point in that we know the core had a powerful power source, since it was significant in the feeding of the time dilation.
You bet that if it wasn't the case, there'd be no point, 50 years later, to announce that the asgard power source is depleted, after maintaining the time bubble, if it was already down 49 years ago or so.

In order to help you understand this, allow me to point out that the difference between the Atlantis shield and the shielding on the Odyssey can be very simply explained:

The Odyssey uses Asgard shields. Not Ancient cityship shields.

The shields on Atlantis are vastly different in operation and configuration even to Aurora-class Lantean shields, and modified puddle jumper cloakshields. Atlantis has 10 separate shield generators, providing a much more layered shield, allowing for regeneration of individual layers, maximizing the power flow from a ZPM (which is capable of providing... I think it was 1% of its total capacity every second?). With a single generator (as on puddle jumpers, Aurora class ships, and BC-404s), efficiency is limited - although GREATLY enhanced by the improved power flow from a ZPM, as evidenced by the Daedalus and Odyssey's improved shield performance when using ZPMs as their main power source.

Precisely 2%/s.

Notice, for example, how the Odyssey - after being outfitted with a ZPM - is able to withstand a LOT more beating than when it was previously running on standard Naquadah generators, including a full-on shot from an Ori Battlecruiser.

They already were able to withstand one direct hit, without a ZPM, all that thanks to their naqahdah generator and the energy they stored before going into battle.
Remember, in Lost City we learned the Prometheus had to recharge shields. Even if it sounds absurd, apparently that's a slow affair.
Or more precisely, that's a meticulous affair, where apparently, a shield buffer can't be bother charged and depleted at the same time.
Or maybe it can, but it could be a security measure, so if somehow, your generator has a power spike, it doesn't directly get transfered into your shield generator, risking burning it.
Ergo the necessity of a buffer.

ZPMs, on the other hand, seem very stable, and apparently you can directly tie one to shields.

Actually, I have my own take on what's inside a ZPM, and I'm convinced that there's already one buffer, if not two of them. This is the only way to explain the different results due to ZPM overloading.

One the ori beam thing, actually notice the lack of major difference. It takes three hits to destroy a 304. After the upgrades, most hits reduced the shield by 25%. So we only jumped from three hits to four.

As you can conclude, it's not that much. Do you really want to argue that a ZPM, directly feeding shields, can't even be able to quickly recharge shields and, above all, provide more energy than a naqahdah generator tied to a buffer?

[Jimbo-DR]

We've already been told that in previous episodes. Why else would the ship HAVE a ZPM in the first place?

We have a line from Caldwell about the shields, and we know that it gives our hyperdrive a considerable boost. Other than that we have no idea what they use it for. Daniel claimed that cloaking the ship was easier with a ZPM, but other than that?
Before Unending we never even had any weapons that would've really benefitted from having the ZPM, so there really is no comparison to go with on that one.

[Dev Corvin]

I'm sorry, but this entire thread really is ridicuolous.

There was nothing mentioned in the episode to indicate that the state of affairs, power-wise, had changed in any way.

It's stated that the new power source powers the new computer core, nothing more nothing less. Please, for god sake, stop debating this issue.

The term "innocent until proven guilty" applies in this situation; they didn't say they'd changed the way the shields or hyperdrive were run, and there's no reason to assume that the weapons wouldn't also make use of the ZPM.

[Mister Oragahn]

I'm sorry, but this entire thread really is ridicuolous.

Let's not get started on that...

[Dev Corvin]

Your of course entitled to your opinion, but luckily this is a public forum and we can debate all we please. And I intend to continue.

Go for it.

Defend your opinion all you want, but as far as I'm concerned the issue has been settled lol.

[Jimbo-DR]

You're of course entitled to your opinion, but luckily this is a public forum and we are free to debate as we please.

We assume the weapons weren't powered by the ZPM because there were no weapons to be powered by the ZPM prior to Unending, and there was no evidence that they were being powered by it post Unending. Also, Oddyssey is the only ship to have a ZPM, correct? Why would the ASgard give us weapons only available on one ship? I'm assuming their knowledge base came with plans for those weapons and they most efficient way of powering them WITHOUT a ZPM. As for double redundancy, I'm sure they wouldn't give us weapons which would fail if we had the oh so unforseeable bad luck of draining our ZPM. Because that NEVER happens lol

[s09119]

You're of course entitled to your opinion, but luckily this is a public forum and we are free to debate as we please.

We assume the weapons weren't powered by the ZPM because there were no weapons to be powered by the ZPM prior to Unending, and there was no evidence that they were being powered by it post Unending. Also, Oddyssey is the only ship to have a ZPM, correct? Why would the ASgard give us weapons only available on one ship? I'm assuming their knowledge base came with plans for those weapons and they most efficient way of powering them WITHOUT a ZPM. As for double redundancy, I'm sure they wouldn't give us weapons which would fail if we had the oh so unforseeable bad luck of draining our ZPM. Because that NEVER happens lol

...

For all we know, the energy weapons take very little power to fire. Just because they're strong doesn't mean they abosrb MASSIVE chunks of energy. After all, the Ancient satellite in "Siege" 1 only needed a naquedah generator to power it up enough to destroy a hive.

So most likely, the weapons can run on a normal power source, but get a boost from having a ZPM tied into the system. In fact, knowing how energy weapons tend to work in Stargate (get more powerful as a bigger power source is added), I wouldn't be surprised to see that without a ZPM, the upgrades would take significantly longer to destroy an Ori ship.

[Mister Oragahn]

Sure... if only the weapons did tap into a ZPM at that moment.
The question is still hanging up there, and frankly, there's just not enough evidence they used the ZPM at all.

Look, the asgard core had a reactor which was so powerful, apparently, that in the whole rest of the episode, no mention was ever made thereafter, about the ol' naqahdah generator being depleted or whatever.
The idea is that they removed that big generator to dump an asgard one in place.
Sincerely, a naqahdah generator of that size is ale to output levels of energy truly formidable.
The asgard power source should be more than enough to do so. Coupled with a top not and almost experimental weapon specifically designed with the goal to attack ori tech, I do'nt think a ZPM would be that necessary, and I don't believe they dented the ZPM to destroy the ori ships.

Plus Jimbo has a point, really. There's no use to a weapon if it can't be powered by anything else besides a power source worth of several supernovas, really... and ends outputing subkiloton levels of energy.

The Asgards probably checked a few things in the alteran database, notably about weapons which have tremendous results with little efforts.

As previously pointed out, a lantian satellite weapon could be charged with a single naqahdah generator, wouldn't deplete that same generator, and still have enough juice to completely destroy three hiveships, while these same ships have a level of armour which can easily withstand, at the very least, hundreds of megatons of energy, if not gigatons (figures obtained with comparisons to ha'taks and 304s attributes).

For the reminder, an overloading naqahdah generator outputs a 20 kilotons explosion.
It's clearly pointing out how lantian weapons manage to fire exotic stuff that does more damage than just heating up armour or poking shields by sheer brute force.

[s09119]

Sure... if only the weapons did tap into a ZPM at that moment.
The question is still hanging up there, and frankly, there's just not enough evidence they used the ZPM at all.

Look, the asgard core had a reactor which was so powerful, apparently, that in the whole rest of the episode, no mention was ever made thereafter, about the ol' naqahdah generator being depleted or whatever.
The idea is that they removed that big generator to dump an asgard one in place.
Sincerely, a naqahdah generator of that size is ale to output levels of energy truly formidable.
The asgard power source should be more than enough to do so. Coupled with a top not and almost experimental weapon specifically designed with the goal to attack ori tech, I do'nt think a ZPM would be that necessary, and I don't believe they dented the ZPM to destroy the ori ships.

Plus Jimbo has a point, really. There's no use to a weapon if it can't be powered by anything else besides a power source worth of several supernovas, really... and ends outputing subkiloton levels of energy.

The Asgards probably checked a few things in the alteran database, notably about weapons which have tremendous results with little efforts.

As previously pointed out, a lantian satellite weapon could be charged with a single naqahdah generator, wouldn't deplete that same generator, and still have enough juice to completely destroy three hiveships, while these same ships have a level of armour which can easily withstand, at the very least, hundreds of megatons of energy, if not gigatons (figures obtained with comparisons to ha'taks and 304s attributes).

For the reminder, an overloading naqahdah generator outputs a 20 kilotons explosion.
It's clearly pointing out how lantian weapons manage to fire exotic stuff that does more damage than just heating up armour or poking shields by sheer brute force.

But you're nod adressing my main point, which is we have NO idea as to how much energy those weapons take up to fire. Let's look at two possibilities:

LOADS OF ENERGY:
- if so, it would have to be powered by a ZPM, as quotes confirm that the Asgard computer core's power cource applied ONLY to the core. If these things required a LOT of energy, but weren't connected to the ZPM or core, we would have noticed the telltale Stargate power problems (light flickering, someone yelling "losing power!", etc.)

NOT MUCH ENERGY (They're so advanced):
- if so, they would not need the ZPM, and therefore could run off of the Odyssey's primary power system (probably naquedah generators).

The most likely, of course, is that they require a poop-load of energy to fire, which implies a strong energy source. Since we know the Asgard core is not powering anything but itself... The ZPM was probably used.

[morrismike]

Are you guys forgeting at the very end of the episode carter gave teal'c a routine to divorce the asgard core from all ship systems in a short period of time? The power core was tied into everything when thor left (when thor started it was only computer)?

[Jimbo-DR]

But you're nod adressing my main point, which is we have NO idea as to how much energy those weapons take up to fire. Let's look at two possibilities:

LOADS OF ENERGY:
- if so, it would have to be powered by a ZPM, as quotes confirm that the Asgard computer core's power cource applied ONLY to the core. If these things required a LOT of energy, but weren't connected to the ZPM or core, we would have noticed the telltale Stargate power problems (light flickering, someone yelling "losing power!", etc.)

NOT MUCH ENERGY (They're so advanced):
- if so, they would not need the ZPM, and therefore could run off of the Odyssey's primary power system (probably naquedah generators).

The most likely, of course, is that they require a poop-load of energy to fire, which implies a strong energy source. Since we know the Asgard core is not powering anything but itself... The ZPM was probably used.

But we have as little proof for your argument as we have for mine. The difference is that reasoning would have me think that a weapon which does as much Hull damage as the Asgard ones did was NOT using tremendous amounts of energy. Now I've actually already been arguing about how much Hull damage WAS caused by the weapons in another thread, and the fact that the weapons completely sliced through the Ori ship. However, requiring the ZPM to power them would make me think they would cause a LOT more damage per shot than they do.