BC-304 vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

[Hypochondriac]

From what I read Mister Oragahn major complaint is that. Firepower figures taken from the cross section books cherry picks data points. For the Delta zero one source Mister Oragahn pointed out noted that it took several ships and a cleanup team afterwoods. which can be used to arge that delta zero isn't as powerful as indicated.

I refer you to this site http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWbd0.html

[darth_timon]

All this has already been adressed, it is simply a rehash of many misconceptions, dishonest alterations of facts and flawed notions. You're invited to read the thread and see what you say is so wrong on so many points.

Except that nothing really HAS been addressed, because you are simply cherry picking, just along different lines. You're preferring to focus on examples that paint Imperial firepower as weaker, ignoring the examples of higher firepower from the two above sites. Unlike certain other versus sites, both Saxton's site and Wong's site have scientific credentials to back their claims up.

[Mister Oragahn]

Except that nothing really HAS been addressed, because you are simply cherry picking, just along different lines. You're preferring to focus on examples that paint Imperial firepower as weaker, ignoring the examples of higher firepower from the two above sites. Unlike certain other versus sites, both Saxton's site and Wong's site have scientific credentials to back their claims up.

Well, you know, that kind of nonsense, I've already heard it billions of times. You just haven't bothered reading the thread. It's just very funny how the yields I apparently favoured, actually fit with what's shown in the films, compared to the asinine claims made by Wong and Saxton. Now if you want to be lazy and blind, and just rehash numbers that sound good to you, without even knowing how they were obtained, which would ultimately tell you that the premises they're based on are false, then so be it.
At least there have been people in that thread who have demonstrated a will to read and understand.

[darth_timon]

Well, you know, that kind of nonsense, I've already heard it billions of times. You just haven't bothered reading the thread. It's just very funny how the yields I apparently favoured, actually fit with what's shown in the films, compared to the asinine claims made by Wong and Saxton. Now if you want to be lazy and blind, and just rehash numbers that sound good to you, without even knowing how they were obtained, which would ultimately tell you that the premises they're based on are false, then so be it.
At least there have been people in that thread who have demonstrated a will to read and understand.

I've read your comments Oragahn and you've not posted anything that hasn't already been refuted over at Stardestroyer.net before. If YOU actually bother to read SD.net or Mr Saxton's site you will find that many of the calculations are based on observations of what happens in the films, which are then supported by the Expanded Universe.

So, I will stick with the numbers worked out by the scientists who have shown their method. If you care to throw out the high-end calculations in favour of low-end calcs, that is your choice. That doesn't make you any less of a cherry picker than anyone who does opposite.

[Mister Oragahn]

I've read your comments Oragahn and you've not posted anything that hasn't already been refuted over at Stardestroyer.net before. If YOU actually bother to read SD.net or Mr Saxton's site you will find that many of the calculations are based on observations of what happens in the films, which are then supported by the Expanded Universe.
So, I will stick with the numbers worked out by the scientists who have shown their method. If you care to throw out the high-end calculations in favour of low-end calcs, that is your choice. That doesn't make you any less of a cherry picker than anyone who does opposite.

No, and this has already been adressed. I've read enough of SD.net and their stories about real life harassment to see that they literally live in a worrying fantasy.
All that BS about their version of the BDZ order, they couldn't even read properly the original definitions provided by the books which actually created that very order, and pretty much contrary to the cherry picking Saxton's been through and the retconning he's tried to enforce in the ICS he's been writing for, a BDZ has never been about slagging the entire surface of a planet, turning it to molten rock at one meter depth, within one hour, with just one Star Destroyer.

That's just scratching the top of their BS iceberg. They just use their position as PhD owners to actually impress people who don't want to bother cross checking the assumptions behind those complicated calcs, and babble their way around absurdities.
Even some people working for LFL have pointed out how many of their reasonings are flawed because of the multiple erroneous premises they've been working from.

The point being that Wong's and Saxton's calculations are right, actually, but it's the primary pieces of information they used, or assumptions they've made, which are utterly flawed.

For example, to illustrate their dishonesty, they could look at a city like New York being leveled by a megaton nuke, and say that since's the entire continent has been vaporized, then X joules of energy have been released. While, in reality, the calcs they'll make about how much energy would be necessary to vaporize a continent will likely be correct (and again, not necessarily), the problem will lie in the fact that they assumed the continent was vaporized, while what really happened was that a single city was flattened by a nuke.
And that's just how they blow everything out of proportion, or simply close their eyes on elements they don't want to hear about.
Saxton's the same guy who's been claiming that the fireworks exploding above Endor at the end of Return of the Jedi (and incidentally exploding as well at Corsucant and Bespin) were Death Star debris being vapourized. No kidding. Nevermind the multiple rebel capital ships actually in orbit or Endor at that time, between the sanctuary moon and the DSII. Nevermind their cannons, tractor beams and shields. Nevermind the possibility of secondary theater shields on Endor.
There's a moment when hiding behind a PhD isn't going to cut the backslash of such absurdities.

As for Wong, despite his formation, he has never been able or willing to explain the secondary explosion of Alderaan, the one that really blows the planet to bits (the former smaller explosion just burns the surface of the planet, which is enough to actually destroy it). This secondary explosion, the bigger one, delayed for completely unknown reasons, happens long after the beam has actually stopped hitting the planet.
It's where the nonsense of his claim slaps his face, for someone who claims that the total destruction of the planet, the one that rips it apart into asteroids, was caused by the sheer direct transfer of energy from the beam, as an instantaneous process. Guess what? If that was true, there would have never been a delayed explosion. No matter the way you look at it, his assumption that it's just a super laser is extremely fishy. But Wong doesn't care.
And along many other details he and his minions skip, this lets him formulate claims which are a far cry from what really happened. Instead, most of his supporters will just point to pieces of the EU (and of course, leaving a vast bulk of contradictory evidence, both from higher canon and other parts of the EU), nevermind if many of these sources, for whatever they say about the superlaser, are derived from the guides published by West End Games, more than a decade ago. Even Wong and his pals know that the WEG guides have largely been pointed at, for years, as containing flawed information. Erroneous scales, utterly incorrect blueprints, things pulled out of the blue despite the film saying the contrary, etc. All sorts of things that still plague the EU official information years later.

It's also from there, from this other epoch, the 20th century actually, that they keep repeating that superlaser = uber turbolaser.
This is important to them, and probably to you, to then make absurd firepower claims by scaling down the superlaser to the cannons present on Star Destroyers, by the following reasoning: if a superlaser of that size can do that, basically, a turbolaser cannon of that this size will then be able to do this.
Nevermind if the Superlaser has so many primary and secondary effects which have absolutely nothing to do with turbolasers, and nevermind if their reasonings lead them to figures which are not even fitting with the level of firepower displayed by the films, and nevermind if many sources described both the Death Star and the Star Destroyers as running on fusion cores which could hardly allow them to produce the claimed levels of energy used for weapons.
Another EU example would be how the Sith Interdictors, ships mass produced by the StarForge millenia ago during the Old Republic, had a firepower barely able to spit out low kiloton level fire. Yet those ships are said to actually outgun Victory class ships - yes, those same Victory class (which we never saw in the films), produced after (or at the end of) the Clone Wars.

Now, check this out, to get a taste of the nonsense started.

One of your dear exquisite friends Wayne Poe (the same who been vitriolic on Karen Traviss), nicknamed... well, you'll see the smart name's he's taken in the forum I'm pointing to, was actually invited to defend certain claims found on SD.net, notably because the pictures on the page I point to were actually provided by Poe.

This starts as I point out the fake asteroids they've been inveting for years (a thing which I actually did in a post at Spacebattles.com a while back, but got quickly forgotten, considering the pro Wars nature of this board largely affiliated to SD.net). The point, as you can see in the rest of the thread, is to show that just like for the asteroid chase scene in AOTC, Poe and his pals were claiming that asteroids were vapourized, while anyone with a good video at hands could already burst their bubble and show how just rubbish those claims were.
So I've called him on the data he provided to Young so many years ago, about the asteroids in ESB, and the Millenium Falcon / ISD chase.
I took the page hosted at SD.net, and pointed to the pictures and comments made by the author, about the so called asteroid being vaporized: My post, on page 1. It's hard not to laugh, really. How can such a blatant dishonesty have been accepted for so many years, it's literally baffling! Probably because you lot were too happy to tout around with numbers flattering your egos or whatever.
Wong's been fairly confortable with that, supporting those claims by hosting those pages.
And here's how Mr. Poe defends claims he abides by: Denial, negationism, on page 2.
That's basically the same methods used for the rest.
The classic SD.net trademark.

So it would be nice if, for a change, you could poke your heads out of your intimate wankhole that SD.net is, and actually realize that not only you're just not welcomed around (the stupid ruckuss you and your friends have made with those attacks led against EU authors has spread - and has been mocked - far beyond the Star Wars fandom). You've already been called on your BS numerous times. It's time to wake up.

Now you can live in denial as much as you want, but I've done enough work here and there to know what I'm talking about actually. You, on the other end, are just citing sources you think might impress me, claim they're right and that's it. Way to go.
I don't even hope to make you think slightly differently. No one from SD.net does. It's literally trying to talk to a bunch of fanatic and devout cultists hiding behind a dense brick wall.

[darth_timon]

No, and this has already been adressed. I've read enough of SD.net and their stories about real life harassment to see that they literally live in a worrying fantasy.
All that BS about their version of the BDZ order, they couldn't even read properly the original definitions provided by the books which actually created that very order, and pretty much contrary to the cherry picking Saxton's been through and the retconning he's tried to enforce in the ICS he's been writing for, a BDZ has never been about slagging the entire surface of a planet, turning it to molten rock at one meter depth, within one hour, with just one Star Destroyer.

That's just scratching the top of their BS iceberg. They just use their position as PhD owners to actually impress people who don't want to bother cross checking the assumptions behind those complicated calcs, and babble their way around absurdities.
Even some people working for LFL have pointed out how many of their reasonings are flawed because of the multiple erroneous premises they've been working from.

The point being that Wong's and Saxton's calculations are right, actually, but it's the primary pieces of information they used, or assumptions they've made, which are utterly flawed.

For example, to illustrate their dishonesty, they could look at a city like New York being leveled by a megaton nuke, and say that since's the entire continent has been vaporized, then X joules of energy have been released. While, in reality, the calcs they'll make about how much energy would be necessary to vaporize a continent will likely be correct (and again, not necessarily), the problem will lie in the fact that they assumed the continent was vaporized, while what really happened was that a single city was flattened by a nuke.
And that's just how they blow everything out of proportion, or simply close their eyes on elements they don't want to hear about.
Saxton's the same guy who's been claiming that the fireworks exploding above Endor at the end of Return of the Jedi (and incidentally exploding as well at Corsucant and Bespin) were Death Star debris being vapourized. No kidding. Nevermind the multiple rebel capital ships actually in orbit or Endor at that time, between the sanctuary moon and the DSII. Nevermind their cannons, tractor beams and shields. Nevermind the possibility of secondary theater shields on Endor.
There's a moment when hiding behind a PhD isn't going to cut the backslash of such absurdities.

As for Wong, despite his formation, he has never been able or willing to explain the secondary explosion of Alderaan, the one that really blows the planet to bits (the former smaller explosion just burns the surface of the planet, which is enough to actually destroy it). This secondary explosion, the bigger one, delayed for completely unknown reasons, happens long after the beam has actually stopped hitting the planet.
It's where the nonsense of his claim slaps his face, for someone who claims that the total destruction of the planet, the one that rips it apart into asteroids, was caused by the sheer direct transfer of energy from the beam, as an instantaneous process. Guess what? If that was true, there would have never been a delayed explosion. No matter the way you look at it, his assumption that it's just a super laser is extremely fishy. But Wong doesn't care.
And along many other details he and his minions skip, this lets him formulate claims which are a far cry from what really happened. Instead, most of his supporters will just point to pieces of the EU (and of course, leaving a vast bulk of contradictory evidence, both from higher canon and other parts of the EU), nevermind if many of these sources, for whatever they say about the superlaser, are derived from the guides published by West End Games, more than a decade ago. Even Wong and his pals know that the WEG guides have largely been pointed at, for years, as containing flawed information. Erroneous scales, utterly incorrect blueprints, things pulled out of the blue despite the film saying the contrary, etc. All sorts of things that still plague the EU official information years later.

It's also from there, from this other epoch, the 20th century actually, that they keep repeating that superlaser = uber turbolaser.
This is important to them, and probably to you, to then make absurd firepower claims by scaling down the superlaser to the cannons present on Star Destroyers, by the following reasoning: if a superlaser of that size can do that, basically, a turbolaser cannon of that this size will then be able to do this.
Nevermind if the Superlaser has so many primary and secondary effects which have absolutely nothing to do with turbolasers, and nevermind if their reasonings lead them to figures which are not even fitting with the level of firepower displayed by the films, and nevermind if many sources described both the Death Star and the Star Destroyers as running on fusion cores which could hardly allow them to produce the claimed levels of energy used for weapons.
Another EU example would be how the Sith Interdictors, ships mass produced by the StarForge millenia ago during the Old Republic, had a firepower barely able to spit out low kiloton level fire. Yet those ships are said to actually outgun Victory class ships - yes, those same Victory class (which we never saw in the films), produced after (or at the end of) the Clone Wars.

Now, check this out, to get a taste of the nonsense started.

One of your dear exquisite friends Wayne Poe (the same who been vitriolic on Karen Traviss), nicknamed... well, you'll see the smart name's he's taken in the forum I'm pointing to, was actually invited to defend certain claims found on SD.net, notably because the pictures on the page I point to were actually provided by Poe.

This starts as I point out the fake asteroids they've been inveting for years (a thing which I actually did in a post at Spacebattles.com a while back, but got quickly forgotten, considering the pro Wars nature of this board largely affiliated to SD.net). The point, as you can see in the rest of the thread, is to show that just like for the asteroid chase scene in AOTC, Poe and his pals were claiming that asteroids were vapourized, while anyone with a good video at hands could already burst their bubble and show how just rubbish those claims were.
So I've called him on the data he provided to Young so many years ago, about the asteroids in ESB, and the Millenium Falcon / ISD chase.
I took the page hosted at SD.net, and pointed to the pictures and comments made by the author, about the so called asteroid being vaporized: My post, on page 1. It's hard not to laugh, really. How can such a blatant dishonesty have been accepted for so many years, it's literally baffling! Probably because you lot were too happy to tout around with numbers flattering your egos or whatever.
Wong's been fairly confortable with that, supporting those claims by hosting those pages.
And here's how Mr. Poe defends claims he abides by: Denial, negationism, on page 2.
That's basically the same methods used for the rest.
The classic SD.net trademark.

So it would be nice if, for a change, you could poke your heads out of your intimate wankhole that SD.net is, and actually realize that not only you're just not welcomed around (the stupid ruckuss you and your friends have made with those attacks led against EU authors has spread - and has been mocked - far beyond the Star Wars fandom). You've already been called on your BS numerous times. It's time to wake up.

Now you can live in denial as much as you want, but I've done enough work here and there to know what I'm talking about actually. You, on the other end, are just citing sources you think might impress me, claim they're right and that's it. Way to go.
I don't even hope to make you think slightly differently. No one from SD.net does. It's literally trying to talk to a bunch of fanatic and devout cultists hiding behind a dense brick wall.

Wow, just wow. There is so much irony to be had in your post that it's practically dripping in it.

Before I continue (and in fact, seeing as it's actually 23:55 here I may not continue properly until tomorrow, when I am awake again), I would like to address one small point- you seem to think I am a croney of SD.net. For the record, I do not particularly like the methods (in terms of behaviour) employed by some of that board's denziens, but that has nothing to do with the validity of their calculations.

You are grouping me in with people whom I have rarely had anything to do with (I never took part in any kind of attack against EU authors) and Wayne Poe is not a dear friend of mine, so kindly don't start lumping me in with them in terms of behaviour (I'm not going to comment one way or another on subjective matters). I might as well put you in the same category as some of the more rabid Star Trek fans out there, would you like that?

I will address your 'points' tomorrow.

[TKG]

In Star Wars, the ability of the republic fleet to destroy the SSD just by flying a Y wing into the bridge of the SSD seems farfetched. Remember some of the SSD's even have a super laser which means a LOT of power required. It seems Lucas just allows anything to happen, so long as the protagonists triumph. -Blank dosts (Correct me if I am wrong.)

Actually it was an A-wing, and the sheilds of the SD were already down as I recall thanks to the destruction of it's spherical sheild generators located on the large conning tower.. Did I mentionthe A-Wing wasn't inentionally crashed there but rather it was already on fire and out of control...the event was a very very lucky fluke not kamikaze.

[darth_timon]

Right, time to tackle your latest post Oragahn.

First up, you claim that there is no support for a BDZ being completed in one hour by a single Star Destroyer- whilst it is true that there is no direct evidence, one only has to use a little logic and common sense to figure it out.

I quote from Mike's Base Delta Zero page, a line from one of the novels he referenced:

'to rendezvous at Dankayo and reduce the tiny base to molten slag. Even before the last of its atmosphere drifted away, before the dense clouds of atomized topsoil could begin to settle, Imperial transports Elusive and Timely, as well as a complement of TIE fighters, moved in to perform "mop-up" operations and a through search of Dankayo's now evenly-cratered surface" (Scavenger Hunt, p.3)'

I know what you are going to argue. Why send in transports and TIEs to mop up after anything if the damage is so destructive? Well, it is never, as far as I am aware, clearly defined what constitutes a deep shelter base. It might be metres underground, it might be a few hundred metres underground. I don't believe it was ever quantified. However, one can infer that the Empire didn't want the Rebels to have the chance to escape so the three Star Destroyers that carried out the attack would have to quickly pound that world. Molten slag is a pretty clear term, as is 'dense clouds of atomised top soil'. So is 'Evenly cratered'. A 100 metre rocky asteroid unleashes 772MT when it creates a 3km crater. Add to that the effects of slagging the surface if you will, plus creating a dense cloud of atomised top soil and the blasting away of the planet's atmosphere. Then you have multi-gigaton weaponry. Especially when you consider they had to carry out this attack quickly.

Another example from another novel:

Sunlight rippled across a sea of shimmering glass. Glass that had once been part of iridescent domes, towering minarets, soaring archways, vertical towers, and all the other structures that constitute a city. A city reduced to a sea of manmade lava, as Imperial laser cannon carved swathes of destruction through the once-beautiful metropolis." (Jedi Knight, p.47)

Do you know sort of firepower it would take to destroy a city the size of New York, which has a square radius of 830KM? (and I'm referring only to the thermal blast radius, not pure destructive power of buildings)? 33 gigatons, that's what. Assuming that a metropolis in Star Wars is on a par with New York (and lets face it, the Star Wars civilisation typically builds bigger), to destroy such a city completely (as in flatten all buildings) would take 1600000 megatons- or 1,600 gigatons if you prefer. That's not taking into account that the city was reduced to LAVA, something requiring even more firepower.

I'll continue later with more examples.

[Buba uognarf]

The EU is not canon it contradicts the canon in many places it shouldn't referenced in debates!

The only thing that is canon are the movies and anything written by george lucas the EU is not written by lucus so anything depicted in it never officially took place.

[darth_timon]

The EU is not canon it contradicts the canon in many places it shouldn't referenced in debates!

The only thing that is canon are the movies and anything written by george lucas the EU is not written by lucus so anything depicted in it never officially took place.

Actually, the EU is regarded as the official continuation of the story and is considered by many fans to be canon unless contradicted. Proving contradictions is not as easy as it seems.

[Buba uognarf]

Actually, the EU is regarded as the official continuation of the story and is considered by many fans to be canon unless contradicted. Proving contradictions is not as easy as it seems.

well it's not recognised by Lucus...the scripts for episodes 7-9 contradict the EU completely.

[darth_timon]

well it's not recognised by Lucus...the scripts for episodes 7-9 contradict the EU completely.

Episodes 7-9 are also never going to happen, so they are irrelevant.

[Buba uognarf]

Episodes 7-9 are also never going to happen, so they are irrelevant.

not according to Lucus...and they're more relevent to star wars then the EU

[darth_timon]

not according to Lucus...and they're more relevent to star wars then the EU

I don't recall him ever saying that, and as long as they remain unmade, it doesn't matter what they're about or what they say- the official continuation of the Star Wars story is the EU, which is the position of Lucasfilm.

[Buba uognarf]

I don't recall him ever saying that, and as long as they remain unmade, it doesn't matter what they're about or what they say- the official continuation of the Star Wars story is the EU, which is the position of Lucasfilm.

No it's not. Anything not written by Lucas himself is not canon.

go to www.supershadow.com read through that