Daedalus vs. Andromeda

[NoobTau'ri]

The yeild is posted in the thread here someplace by me. It's a quote directly from one of the episodes, "The Prince" I think.

That episode also gives/confirms the rate of fire of the missiles launchers and it's the ship's AI herself talking so we can be fairly certain she's not mistaken.

Trust me on this one NoobTau'ri the Daedalus is probably still ****ed six ways from Sunday if it runs up against a roving squadren of the Andromeda's attack fighters, let alone the actual ship herself. Pre upgrade Daedalus just makes it a sadistic exercise, like a cute little puppy with a lot of spunk vs an F22 Raptor.

Edit: As far as drones go they're slow moving missile like objects. Basically an all you can eat holiday buffet for Andromeda's intense anti-missile defenses, which are expected to shoot down .95c+ projectiles when they're actually at work.

Even with 1,000 drones in the air, a number never seen before, we're talking about literally 3.125 seconds to get 1,000 defensive missiles in the air to match them. Maybe some of them will miss or some drones will survive .85c impacts somehow, ok lets' triple saturate them with defensive missiles, we'll need 10 seconds for that. Then if there's somehow any still left the point defense lasers can have their turn once they get within 1 light second of the ship.

So basically launching 1,000 drones would buy the Daedalus roughly 3-10 seconds of extra life if Hunt decided to be a prick and crush their hopes first instead of just killing them.

Dude, we have seen the 304 class without ZPM taking the multi gigaton blasts from hives without problems. Even if the projectiles deliver 40 megaton of kinetic energy per hit , those Asgard shields can take that comfortably. Now imagine if you powered the freaking thing with a ZPM and removed the buffer allowing the shield to taper directly into the power source. what can the Andromeda fire besides those star killers to take that shield out? And again, you are ignoring the offensive use of the time-dilation device. I say they freeze the Andromeda in a time-dilation field, take aim and shoot and only unfreeze time as the beam is very close to it. Presto. If that is not enough, then repeat operation ad nauseum until the Andromeda is dust.

As for drones, you are assuming that the Andromeda's projectiles sill destroy the drones and not be eaten by them. what if the drones simply desintegrates the projectiles and keeps moving towards the ship? You need to understand that we're talking about a ship that took down two galactic empires almost all by itself, so the freakin' thing is uber. ;D

P.S: We have seen a thousand drone before. We have actually seen more than that. How do you think O'Neil wiped out all of the fleet of the most powerful System Lord? With a couple drones?

[NoobTau'ri]

But the Andromeda isn't confined to a box, even if it was it wouldn't really be capable of being hit unless there were millions of drones that effectively formed a wall that couldn't be crossed, given Andromeda's speed compared to drones we've seen, this just wouldn't be possible, the Andromeda would almost instantly be able to just fly around it. Plus the Andromeda isn't that bad at manoeuvring, I'm pretty sure it can turn much faster than a 304. Perhaps if you watched the show you'd know this , or maybe you just can't grasp how large a 300k km radius is, and given the tiny size of the drones and the size of the Andromeda(just over 1km in length) and that it moves at over 100x(probably closer to 500x) times its speed you'd just be wasting drones.

sigh, sigh, sigh, sigh, sigh

The "box" is a metaphor for the finite space that the Andromeda needs to be to shoot at the target. It cannot shoto from the other side of the Universe, you know? Again, the Andromeda can flee, but it cannot evade the drones eternally while shooting at the target. It simply cannot be done.

[HAL]

actually from what I can remember adromeda can out maneuver drones due to mass maniuplation


so no drones arent gonna hit it or be a threat


and as for time dialation has it even been shown inshow that you can throw a time diliation field over anything other than yourself ?

[darkcoder]

sigh, sigh, sigh, sigh, sigh

The "box" is a metaphor for the finite space that the Andromeda needs to be to shoot at the target. It cannot shoto from the other side of the Universe, you know? Again, the Andromeda can flee, but it cannot evade the drones eternally while shooting at the target. It simply cannot be done.

You make it sound like the Andromeda is confined to weapons range during combat, if you're standing idle 300k km from the 304 and start firing all your weapons(which they can all reach at this measly distance in 1 second(thus not intercepted)), you have minutes without even moving to ponder what to do next, during this time the 304 will be well destroyed. Even if it isn't you'd just turn to the right 90 degrees and turn the engines on for a bit and continue to shoot, the Andromeda even has backward facing guns I'm pretty sure so the direction of its movement isn't a concern.

There is simply no way any cloud of drones can cordon off the Andromeda, its speed and weapons range make it invincible to all drones we've seen. Picture this, the Andromeda 300k km from the 304, the 304 fires a million drones that it doesn't have at Rommie and after a few minutes(depending on their speed) it will reach this stationary position, but the Andromeda can just fire its engines for 2 seconds and be on the exact opposite side of the 304 still well within weapons range and continue shooting all the while. The drones are now on the wrong side of the battlefield and have to go all the way across and this can go on forever. You could make it so that Andromeda must move a lot more by spreading the drones out around the 304 evenly, that way the drones will be able to approach it much faster, but this time is still pointless as the gaps between the drones will be huge, and they are far too slow to close any gaps to cordon it off, and remember these are only the close range weapons. Don't forget the missiles it has that are effective across a large chunk of the solar system?

So yet again, sigh sigh sigh, watch the show .

[Character]

The weight comes from the allsystems website but there's also the quotes posted earlier in this thread that give actual yeilds per missile as 40 megatons. 40 megatons is pretty close to the KE of a 1 kilogram object at .95c when factoring in relativity I'm told.

My own calculations put it at about 9.5MT.

Andromeda actually uses the fairly obvious property of gravity creating feilds; she reduces the missile's mass. It's how she does everything; mass manipulation.

I know that she reduces mass, thats why i was asking the missiles weight with reduced mass. The problem i see is that to accelerate the 1kg missiles (mass reduced to 1 kg) to .95c, you'd need atleast the same 9.5 megatons (ok, it depends on the actual method, but whatever it is, .95c would requere ALOT of energy whatever way you do it). So i can hardly imagine adromeda accelerating even a single missile to near c with her tiny few hundred megawatt output, So either the missiles are reduced to much lesser mas and the yield comes from an actual warhead (likely and smart, if a bit strange for a "kinetic kill" missile) or the actual yield of regular missiles is much smaller, rewatching the episode Rommie only states the fire rate, actual yield (at 20MT) is stated by the onboard guest, admiral whatshisname, so not realy first hand info.

[Stewart5]

The Andromeda holds the ultimate trump card though. The ship itself is a named main character, arguably even the number two character in the series right behind Hunt.

That is true. unless Sheppard, or O'neil or Cameron are on Deaddy, no chance. Not even Caldwell is safe!

Where is this info from? I didnt see weight or yields on wiki so i'm curious. Also i wonder how such a heavy missile can be accelerated to near c with andromedas tiny output (calculated in my previous post edit).

Kinetic force damage ratios can be huge, even from a light weight. Also, in a frictionless environment, the forces that could be achieved are huge

"Even bigger sigh"

Let me give you guys a practical example so that your brains won't be overwhelmed and you will be able to finally understand this. I will spoon feed this to you guys, mkay?

Imagine that you have a box. Now, inside the box you put an object that moves really, really fast and a thousand objects that move much slower but have greater maneuverability. Now, you program the slow maneuverable objects to hit the super-fast object, and you program the super-fast object to avoid being hit at all costs by any of the slow objects. What will happen? The super-fast object will eventually be hit by the slower objects because the space inside the box is finite and there will come a time when the super-fast object will be in a configuration inside the box where all space that it can maneuver into including staying in the spot it is in will result in it hitting one of the slow objects. This is statiscal analyses my friend, and there is no way to escape this.

Firstly, space is a big box, and Andromeda has huge range with her weapons. Also, she has anti-fighter/missile point defence. it would be like shooting LAWs at the new dauntless class british cruiser. Vulcan cannon turns, tracks, smites. Drones shot down, as there are no where near enough of them

BTW, Noob, u realise this is Deaddy B4 Asgard coolness?

[Crazy Tom]

A good analogy to compare the Andromeda and the Daedalus is a F-22 Raptor VS. a WWII era Mustang.

The Ndnromeda is faster, more maneuvrable, better armed, longer ranged, and better equiped.

Noob, please read what we're saying, it's not stuff we made up just for the heck of it.

[Character]

The way i see it, this thread is basicly "the invincible ship vs the unhittable ship", atleast from all the stuff that i read about Rommies armament, output and speed.

[Ouroboros]

My own calculations put it at about 9.5MT.

What mass and speed did you use and did you factor in relativity? I've never seen anyone come up with a number that low before.

I know that she reduces mass, thats why i was asking the missiles weight with reduced mass. The problem i see is that to accelerate the 1kg missiles (mass reduced to 1 kg) to .95c, you'd need atleast the same 9.5 megatons (ok, it depends on the actual method, but whatever it is, .95c would requere ALOT of energy whatever way you do it). So i can hardly imagine adromeda accelerating even a single missile to near c with her tiny few hundred megawatt output, So either the missiles are reduced to much lesser mas and the yield comes from an actual warhead (likely and smart, if a bit strange for a "kinetic kill" missile) or the actual yield of regular missiles is much smaller, rewatching the episode Rommie only states the fire rate, actual yield (at 20MT) is stated by the onboard guest, admiral whatshisname, so not realy first hand info.

[AA] So (Getting up from the table and looking at a screen on a wall), how many can she fire again?

[Hologram] Forty missile launchers, each firing eight rounds per second.

[AA] Nineteen thousand, two-hundred rounds per minute. (To Dylan.) At forty mega ton payloads?

[Dylan] Well, give or take. A glorious heritage class cruiser, like the Andromeda could completely depopulate a world like, Ne’Holland in under two minutes. More tea?

Admiral Alexander just continues staring at the panel.

The yeild stated is around 40 megatons not around 20 and certainly not around 10. If the power output is dramatically too low to make this possible in that one instance you found just discard it as an outlier. The same way nobody's going to seriously argue that Goa'uld and Wraith capship guns are less powerful than a hand grenade.

These quotes don't leave a whole lot of wiggle room. You've got the ship's AI and the ship's captain discussing it's capabilities pretty specifically.

[Character]

What mass and speed did you use and did you factor in relativity? I've never seen anyone come up with a number that low before.

I used 1kg mass, at .95c speed and the kinetic energy formula. I didnt consider realativity though, as i dont realy understand how realativity (i assume your refering to time dialation?) affect kinetic energy?

The yeild stated is around 40 megatons not around 20 and certainly not around 10. If the power output is dramatically too low to make this possible in that one instance you found just discard it as an outlier. The same way nobody's going to seriously argue that Goa'uld and Wraith capship guns are less powerful than a hand grenade.

These quotes don't leave a whole lot of wiggle room. You've got the ship's AI and the ship's captain discussing it's capabilities pretty specifically.

Yes, the transcript in some sites say 40, but like i said, i rewatched the actual episode, and it quite clearly states 20MT. And as its the only time the yield is actualy stated (as far as i can remember atleast), i see no reason why the low power output should be ignored as opposed to the stated yield.

[NoobTau'ri]

This thread is full of nincompoopery.

[Ouroboros]

I used 1kg mass, at .95c speed and the kinetic energy formula. I didnt consider realativity though, as i dont realy understand how realativity (i assume your refering to time dialation?) affect kinetic energy?

Apparently it does.
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physic...y/SR/mass.html

I'm rapidly leaving my own comfort level behind when it comes to this type of complex physics but from what I can understand it has to do with the idea that an object will appear to gain this relativistic mass as it approaches lightspeed which is why it is theoretically impossible to accellerate someting to 1.0c. That would be the point where it had infinite mass and would thus require infinite energy.

There are some sample calculations on that page as well. Perhaps one of them could be useful.

I'm fairly certain the relativistic mass calculation was actually done before by someone in either this thread or the other one as well.

Yes, the transcript in some sites say 40, but like i said, i rewatched the actual episode, and it quite clearly states 20MT. And as its the only time the yield is actualy stated (as far as i can remember atleast), i see no reason why the low power output should be ignored as opposed to the stated yield.

I'm fine with 20 megatons as the yeild if that's what the actual episode said. I haven't seen it in quite some time.

The low power generation number is going to screw up a lot more than just that though. To support that you'll also have to throw out the rate of fire, and the acclerations, as well as assuming that both the AI and the ship's Captain don't know what they're talking about.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

Actually, the power quote can pretty much be tossed out by hard-core sci-fi guys who are interested in the Andromeda as she was designed originally. In the last three seasons the laws of physics-and-everything-else flew out the whazoo, and since the Harper quote is from season...3 or 4, I believe...it isn't really able to be considered as 'accurate', as by that time they had actually fired they guy who came up with Andromeda.

[Stewart5]

This thread is full of nincompoopery.

This thread can be full of whatever nincompoopery it wishes. This is sci-fi, remember?

Still think the Rommie would own......

[Rudy Pena]

Actually, the power quote can pretty much be tossed out by hard-core sci-fi guys who are interested in the Andromeda as she was designed originally. In the last three seasons the laws of physics-and-everything-else flew out the whazoo, and since the Harper quote is from season...3 or 4, I believe...it isn't really able to be considered as 'accurate', as by that time they had actually fired they guy who came up with Andromeda.

They guy the came up with Andromeda is Dead, cause Gene Ronttenbery(sp) came up with it.