Why is there a Point of Origin?

[_Owen_]

Ha, made up right, and monkeys don't play poker around a bonfire twenty thousand feet in the air! P) Whatever you say.

Yes, we are aware that Stargate is a television show, but most of the science in the show is real science and that is what we are discussing here in the quote unquote Science and Technology Section.

Actually just believing whatever they tell you is not something I would strongly recommend. Several times Carter has been wrong in explaining how the gate works, using terms like demolecularization and even de-atomized [Shiver] The Stargate actually uses dematerialization, the process of converting matter into energy, and we know this from several episodes such as "Forty-Eight Hours." So as you can see believing whatever they say is not always the best course.

I don't want to start an argument here, but posts like this really take away from the forum, was there any need to come in here, and post a completely off topic post just to shove in our faces the redundant fact of the fictionalization of Stargate. If we wanted to blindly believe in everything the Stargate producers tell us we most likely wouldn't be here, and I certainly wouldn't be posting this response so please. If you wish to post like this, don't. I am asking you on behalf of the forum, to be more tolerant of others and basically live and let live. If everyone could do that, the forum would be a much better place.

Just because the Stargate only has thirty-nine symbols doesn't mean it couldn't work, it doesn't have to work on the principle of a grid system it could work on the principle of a coding system, alonethe symbold mean nothing but together they each represent individual locations, allowing for the symbols to be reused and not represnt the same points from gate adress to gate adress. I know that was a sarcastic comment, but if you want you could start a thread about it, because it's off topic here.

[LORD MONK]

Then why can't you except the fact that you need a point of origin. In order to travel from one place to the other in a three deminsional space you need x,y,z for one point then x,y,z for another point to make a line being the road you travel. The first x,y,z are the first six symbols. We agree to that. The seventh symbol being the point of origin is the next x,y,z all in one saying hear I am lets go.

Now..... I didn't say believe TPTB and take it as science. I said take it has Stargate Science meaning the show, Stargate.

[Seastallion]

Then why can't you except the fact that you need a point of origin. In order to travel from one place to the other in a three deminsional space you need x,y,z for one point then x,y,z for another point to make a line being the road you travel. The first x,y,z are the first six symbols. We agree to that. The seventh symbol being the point of origin is the next x,y,z all in one saying hear I am lets go.

Now..... I didn't say believe TPTB and take it as science. I said take it has Stargate Science meaning the show, Stargate.

You would be correct IF the stargates used a single planetary frame of reference to target other gates. Point in fact, it does NOT. Every stargate in the galaxy uses the same frame of reference. That is the ONLY possible way (besides a pre-assigned combination lock system, which we already know from the show is NOT the case.) for all the addresses to work from any planet you are on.

IF they had kept it like it was explained in the movie (and they did NOT), you would be correct. However, if they had done that, every single planet they went to would have been a problem when they tried to return home. Because IF it worked as you suggest, then there would be a different stargate address to Earth for every stargate they visited. We know that is not the case. They use the same address back to Earth regardless of the planet they visit.

Another difference between the movie and the TV show regarding this, is that the stargate on Abydos in the movie had nearly ALL different symbols from the Earth gate. On the show, the basic 38 symbols are common to every gate in the galaxy. There are significant differences between the show and movie, that defy continuity, and the show hasn't been exactly perfect with continuity either. It is because of that, that we 'the fans' have had to deduce precisely how the gate operates based on clues given from the show over time. Obviously there are still differences of opinion on who is right about what, but that is inevitable.

Owen, and I both think we're each right, and as much as we butt heads over it ( ) we keep it light. I know that he is strongly attached to his way of seeing it, and I over mine. However, Owen is a decent guy, and at least I have someone to debate this with without getting ugly. (Although Owen does like to be 'cute' sometimes. ) In the end, I know we'll walk away still able to agree on something. Actually, I think Owen likes to mess with me just to rattle my cage... LOL

[_Owen_]

Owen, and I both think we're each right, and as much as we butt heads over it ( ) we keep it light. I know that he is strongly attached to his way of seeing it, and I over mine. However, Owen is a decent guy, and at least I have someone to debate this with without getting ugly. (Although Owen does like to be 'cute' sometimes. ) In the end, I know we'll walk away still able to agree on something. Actually, I think Owen likes to mess with me just to rattle my cage... LOL

No! I don't! **Rattle, rattle, kick kick, rattle rattle**

You would be correct IF the stargates used a single planetary frame of reference to target other gates. Point in fact, it does NOT. Every stargate in the galaxy uses the same frame of reference. That is the ONLY possible way (besides a pre-assigned combination lock system, which we already know from the show is NOT the case.) for all the addresses to work from any planet you are on.

IF they had kept it like it was explained in the movie (and they did NOT), you would be correct. However, if they had done that, every single planet they went to would have been a problem when they tried to return home. Because IF it worked as you suggest, then there would be a different stargate address to Earth for every stargate they visited. We know that is not the case. They use the same address back to Earth regardless of the planet they visit.

Another difference between the movie and the TV show regarding this, is that the stargate on Abydos in the movie had nearly ALL different symbols from the Earth gate. On the show, the basic 38 symbols are common to every gate in the galaxy. There are significant differences between the show and movie, that defy continuity, and the show hasn't been exactly perfect with continuity either. It is because of that, that we 'the fans' have had to deduce precisely how the gate operates based on clues given from the show over time. Obviously there are still differences of opinion on who is right about what, but that is inevitable.

Ah, ok, now we are making som progress, because I have no reason to believe that they changed the targetting system from the movie to the show. I didn't see any episodes when they said it was different, and I don't think a change in dhd's justifies it. So, if you wouldn't mind, could you explain, why you think it was changed at all. To take this to another level, I didn't see anything period (movie or show) that suggests whether the adresses work on the same reference points for the universe, or if it's like a combination lock, having each symbol alone mean nothing but all together they represent certain points unique to that stargate. Now I think I know what you are going to say, in one of the episodes, I think "The Torment of Tantalus" Carter says, that the planet they are going to shares a lot of the same points as Earth, or Abydos or something. I think that if the planets are close enough to each other, the location of points could be coincidentally placed in an optimal location for another stargate, or other stargates. That way, they could share the same points without having to be on a reference system commong to the galaxy. One other thing, just because Carter said they share the same reference points, that could mean nothing, she could have known that they share the same symbols and assume that that justified them sharing the same points.

Just another option.
(He He)

[Seastallion]

No! I don't! **Rattle, rattle, kick kick, rattle rattle**

Sign: *Don't feed the Bears..!* "Ggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...."

Ah, ok, now we are making som progress, because I have no reason to believe that they changed the targetting system from the movie to the show. I didn't see any episodes when they said it was different, and I don't think a change in dhd's justifies it. So, if you wouldn't mind, could you explain, why you think it was changed at all.

It's simple really, just as I said in my previous post. In fact, it was a MAJOR plot point of the movie. The stargate on Abydos had completely different symbols on it, besides being on the other side of the known universe in the movie, and nearby our solar system in our own galaxy in the show. That ALONE should be enough to tell you there are MAJOR differences between the TV show and the movie in terms of stargate operation. The 'movie Abydos' is an extra-galactic planet, and they didn't even need any sort of power boost. The Pegasus galaxy is VERY nearby in relative terms to 'movie Abydos', and they needed a ZPM just to get there. In terms of how far 'movie Abydos was', they'd need a dozen ZPM's to get there, at least.

To take this to another level, I didn't see anything period (movie or show) that suggests whether the adresses work on the same reference points for the universe, or if it's like a combination lock, having each symbol alone mean nothing but all together they represent certain points unique to that stargate.

First, I didn't say a 'universal' frame of reference. I said 'Galactic'. I'm getting Deja Vu; it seems to me you, or someone else made that same error about the same exact thing. It may have been Monk. Anywho... All the stargates in THIS galaxy use the same frame of reference. All the stargates in the Pegasus galaxy use the same frame of reference there. (Not our galaxies frame of reference. Completely different with unique gate symbols for that galaxy, other than the PoO symbols.) I think you and I can BOTH agree that the stargate network definitely doesn't use a combination lock system. PLEASE, don't contradict me on that last statement. You, of all people here should know better, especially given your own theories.

Now I think I know what you are going to say, in one of the episodes, I think "The Torment of Tantalus" Carter says, that the planet they are going to shares a lot of the same points as Earth, or Abydos or something. I think that if the planets are close enough to each other, the location of points could be coincidentally placed in an optimal location for another stargate, or other stargates. That way, they could share the same points without having to be on a reference system commong to the galaxy. One other thing, just because Carter said they share the same reference points, that could mean nothing, she could have known that they share the same symbols and assume that that justified them sharing the same points.

Just another option.
(He He)

As to the "Torment of Tantalus", Carter said that the reason the Stargate address still worked between Earth and that planet (she knew it was near our star system, because it shared many of the same symbols as Abydos which is also close to Earth) was because they were still close enough to Earth for the address to still work. In a few thousand years, the addresses for both Abydos and 'Tantalus' would need to be updated, because the star systems will have moved too far (as a result of stellar drift) away from Earth, for the normal co-relative update process to adjust for. The reason Carter knew that 'Tantalus' was nearby our star system (relatively, anyways) was precisely because of the shared gate symbols. The reason she was able to deduce that (both addresses using many of the same gate symbols, la, la, la,la, la, laaa... ) was because the stargates all use a common frame of reference (pan-galactic) to determine their given locations. Thus, stargate addresses, with similar symbol permeautations are relatively nearby each other. As another example of this... Remember the planets of the Lash'Kash'no (a star cluster or something)(or whatever Bra'tac called them) in "Maternal Instinct" when they went to Keb (one of those Lash-whatever planets)?? Those stargate addresses had many of the same symbols with only a few symbols being different, thus showing that they were nearby each other (relatively. In space you know... Not the same star system. ) Why?!? Because all the stargates used the same frame of reference, not individual planetary ones.

[LORD MONK]

I personally thnk they changed to much from the movie to the show in order to make it work.
When did they say they don't use star contelations for point references anymore? If they actually said that wouldn't that be a plothole.

[Seastallion]

I personally thnk they changed to much from the movie to the show in order to make it work.
When did they say they don't use star contelations for point references anymore? If they actually said that wouldn't that be a plothole.

Well, the symbols on the Stargate being star constellations was never in dispute, although from the perspective of the Antartic stargate being 50,000,000 years old (and having the same exact symbols) it wouldn't make sense. (Because the star positions in the sky was different back then.) Unless, the star constellations were made up based on those symbols (which isn't out of the realm of possibility). That would make far more sense, than the other way around, given the supposed age of the stargates on the show. They never actually said anything about the stargate symbols and star constellations in the show, because they've pretty much ignored the whole thing. I suppose it is a plothole, but my theory about them basing the star constellations off the stargate, fills it in nicely.

[uksaiyan]

I think it's just a reference used for each set of coordinates. Hence when you see a bunch of stargate addresses written down it has 7 coordinates. 6 for the address and the 7th will be the POO of THAT planet. Hence just a way to say what the planet is.

As for it's use in the dialing prosess, I think it's just to signal when the dialing process is complete. So it knows if your dialing the standard 6 coordinates, or if you are dialing 7 coordinates like in "The Fifth Race".

[.jolinar.]

I think that there is a p.o.o. to direct the wormhole around anything that it would otherwise pass through that might cause a problem...or somthing like that.

[Seastallion]

I think that there is a p.o.o. to direct the wormhole around anything that it would otherwise pass through that might cause a problem...or somthing like that.

Care to expand on that idea??

[FallenAngelII]

Watch "Stargate the Movie". Daniel explains it there.

[Seastallion]

Watch "Stargate the Movie". Daniel explains it there.

Uh... who are you talking too?

[teletran]

I haven't read this entire thread because it's incredibly long so forgive me if this has already been put forth but I've had an idea about how gate dialling might work.
The other day I thinking about the possibility of communication between two or more stargates without opening a wormhole, this would streamline the correlative update process among other things, I call it passive dialling whereas opening a wormhole would be active dialling. Now it occurred to me that if this is possible it might be instrumental in the dialling process itself.
We all know that six symbols of a gate address represent the location of the destination gate in three-dimensional space the seventh representing the point of origin. Now suppose that the first six symbols are actually used to create a subspace uplink to the destination gate along with instructions to dial the address of your gate represented by the seventh symbol bridging the gap and creating the wormhole.
This would also explain why the gate spins when it detects an incoming whormhole.

PS I am now strongly of the opinion that none of that made sense if you can work it out let me know.

[.jolinar.]

I was thinking about this while trying to answer another question. I understand the concept of having to have 7 points to plot a course, 6 for the destination and one for the origin, as explained in the movie. But why did the Ancients even have a Point of Origin?

The gate dialing is much like that of a telephone, you dial a number, and no matter where you're calling from, you will connect to the same phone. It doesn't matter where the origin is. So if the first 6 symbols give you the destination of a gate, and those symbols will connect you to the same stargate no matter where the wormhole originates from, why would you bother to even have a Point of Origin symbol? It changes nothing about the wormhole connection and only complicates the process (as seen in the movie).

Any thoughts?

We need the point of origin to plot a course. Other wise the wormhole could go through a Star or a blackhole which as you should know could cause a few problems. It's happened before as Carter overwrited the dialing program so the wormhole went through the destination planet's Star and we accidently Introduced an element into the Star which began to kill it or somthing like that. Either way the inhabitants of the Planet were doomed. (see 'Red Sky')

[the_dark_light]

I haven't read the endless pages in this thread, so I apologise if this has been said.

The stargate needs a point of origin as a plot mechanism. It's because in the movie, challenges are needed. They find the address to return to Earth, but not the Abydos point of origin (I'm not sure why they couldn't try random origins?), that becomes part of the plot towards the end of the film.