Why is there a Point of Origin?

[_Owen_]

Well the thing I can think of it, that we know the point of origin symbol is unique to each gate so, perhaps, being a genius, he was able to figure out which symbol it was much faster than we could.

[Seastallion]

I know this is a bit off topic, but In SGA, " The Hive", Mckay dailed to Atlantis but he did without knowing the PoO of the planet he was on.

sorry again, but did anyone else notice this?

Actually, that is easy. He just had to pick the one symbol that isn't shared by all the other stargates in the Pegasus Galaxy. No great mystery there.

[_Owen_]

hey we agree! It's a good thing you didn't read my post up there^! Then we'd get into another argument about that. Did I say that out loud? lol. That's how we met, just out of curiosity have you converted to Owenism or do you still believe the stargate identifies the center of the solar system and the wormhole just jumps to the gate?

[Seastallion]

Actually, I did. I just hadn't gotten to it yet.

The main reason though is this: normally Stargates require six points to locate another Stargate now in my opinion there is other information contained somewhere within the gate network, specifically information concerning the orbit of the planet, this way the Stargate can identify an entire area, namely the orbit of the planet, in which it knows the stargate will be located, then the wormhole can be close enough to jump to the gate. But why, you ask, do we need to identify an area when we can just identify the stargate itself. Well contrary to popular belief planets do move, and they move pretty quickly, if we were to try to identify something the size of a stargate, while the planet is orbiting a star and rotating by the time we were done dialing the sequence would be incorrect, because the gate would have moved out of that area or away from that point. Either the dialing sequence would have to reset the symbols, or the locations that the symbols represent would have to be altered which means the correlative update program would have to be running constantly on every gate making it impossible to dial in anyways. (Now are you catching on?)

We've been over this before my friend. If you recall, we established that what your describing was not the case. Stargate addresses identify an entire star system. As long is there is a gate SOMEWHERE within the system (no specific orbits required), the gate will lock on. The other stargate acts as a 'magnet' (no pun intended), that attracts the wormhole to it. The Stargate doesn't need any more information than the location of the entire star system. The relative movement within the star system makes no difference (unless it's in hyperspace). We've seen stargates from one end of a star system to the other, and still working. Specific orbits, mean nothing.

If we aren't allowed to find other gates using one symbol, how can we find ours? That is why we need a point of origin, when you push that seventh symbol it automatically updates, it represents, for that moment, a point representing the location of the Stargate allowing for the dialing sequence to be completed.

Sorry my friend, but... No. It doesn't. See my post with the pics above. All the 'point of origin' does is activate the stargate during manual dialings. That's it. Nothing more. On a non-functional note, it also serves to represent the individual stargates themselves.

Now yes, I have gone and answered the question scientifically, that is why we physically need a point of origin, but yes, we could do without.

It wasn't scientific, it was speculative. Hell, my explanation is speculative, but based on everything we know from Stargate. We're talking about a system used to track other stargates, of which there are many possible solutions, but only one is used. I don't refute your idea because it is necessarily 'wrong' per se, but because we have evidence from the show that refutes it. In particular, when a stargate gets moved, the 'new' information that would have to apply to the new orbit would have to be added. That is far beyond the scope of the 6 gate symbol cordinates. When a gate gets moved, the only thing that changes is the address to the new star system. The planet the stargate is on could be right next to the sun, or as far away as pluto. It wouldn't matter. The stargate attracts the wormhole to it, automatically.

[_Owen_]

Oh, not this again, I shouldn't have brought it up.

As I recall, we agreed to nothing of the sort. I believe we agreed that both ideas were equally plausible and that we couldn't know unless they said so in the show. But then I still secretly believed mine was better because my way you can have more than one gate per system, and your way is easier but you can't. Apparently you secretly thought yours was better too, lol. COUGH I'm right COUGH

Wrong. First you have no evidence that the location of the outgoing gate is stored in the PoO symbol. In any case, it isn't. The stargate has NO need to send its own position, it only needs to send the wormhole to the position identified by the outgoing address. We've been over this time and again. The co-relative update has NOTHING to do with telling other stargates its new position. What it DOES do, is slightly alter the represented grid position of each of the gate symbols (except for the PoO, which is seperate), so that the symbols remain valid due to stellar drift. As I've already said before, the Stargate Network works on a pan-galactic X,Y,Z coordinate grid, that allows each gate to keep its address over long periods of time, without having to change the address.

I read your post above and I'm sorry to say you are the one that is mistaken, in many aspects actually, but right in others for the wrong reasons.

You are right, the Stargate has no need to send its own location, in fact it has no need to send any information, the only thing the information that is input into the stargate is used for is for targetting the destination and plotting a course. I have no idea what your x,y,z explination has to do with anything but at least you are right about that.

However, you are wrong that the stargate doesn't require a point of origin to create a wormhole. I think you are thinking of it as a car, you get in your car and drive, you don't need to know where you start, because you are already there, with the stargate it's completely different. You are traveling inside the stargate from point a to point b, you are traveling inside the wormhole from point a to point b, and the stargate needs to create that wormhole. First it needs somewhere to target one end and then it needs somewhere to target the other end, hence the use of the point of origin. It's not that the stargate doesn't know where it is, it can very well know where it it, but it needs to know where to generate the event horizon for the wormhole, and this is the actual event horizon not the stargate generated artificial event horizon that dematerializes you. I propose that you need a point of origin to create a wormhole because you need a location at which to generate both sides, with the outgoing gate, one point if fine because the gate can know exactly where itself is, but for the incoming you need to specify an volume of space to target the wormhole. And again we come back to the inescapable discussion where I think I'm right and you think you're right and I think logic dicates that I'm right and you think that occam's razor dictates that you're right, when actually I'm right because occam's razor is flawed in this situation.

It was scientifc compared to the unscientific nature of the question. Yes it was speculative but speculative on the scientific aspects of the unscientific question. That's all I meant.

COUGH I'm right COUGH

sorry, I must have something in my throat, it feels like rightness but I can't be sure.

[Seastallion]

Oh, not this again, I shouldn't have brought it up.

As I recall, we agreed to nothing of the sort. I believe we agreed that both ideas were equally plausible and that we couldn't know unless they said so in the show. But then I still secretly believed mine was better because my way you can have more than one gate per system, and your way is easier but you can't. Apparently you secretly thought yours was better too, lol. COUGH I'm right COUGH

LOL..! Your right. I'll give you that. Since then though, I had done a lot of work on it. If you go back a page or two, you'll see an entire post, with most of the posts I've made in this thread (quite a few). They are in order, so you can go back and read them. It is canon, that you can NOT have more than one stargate in the same star system on at the SAME time. You can have more than one gate, but you can't use them simultaneously. Remember 'Watergate'?

I read your post above and I'm sorry to say you are the one that is mistaken, in many aspects actually, but right in others for the wrong reasons.

You are right, the Stargate has no need to send its own location, in fact it has no need to send any information, the only thing the information that is input into the stargate is used for is for targetting the destination and plotting a course. I have no idea what your x,y,z explination has to do with anything but at least you are right about that.

See my post above with the nice pictures. We agree on that part, except that you are unclear on precisely how the stargate symbols are used to find another stargate. That is where the pan-galactic X,Y,Z cordinate map grid comes into play. (Like the pics) You plug the symbols in to allow the stargates internal computer to pinpoint your destination in the galaxy. The X,Y,Z axis cross paths to identify a specific location. (This time don't diss my bad drawing... It's only a rough sketch of the general idea.)

However, you are wrong that the stargate doesn't require a point of origin to create a wormhole. I think you are thinking of it as a car, you get in your car and drive, you don't need to know where you start, because you are already there, with the stargate it's completely different.

No, I'm not. Knowing where you are in relation to the other stargate is not a requirement. A Stargate address will work anywhere regardless of where you are creating the wormhole from, precisely BECAUSE the means by which a stargate targets another gate is NOT from a star-to-star perspective. It is from a self-updating predesigned pan-galactic map grid. The symbols on the gate represent incremental points on the virtual grid used to cross-reference a position when all 6 points are used, to cross axis over a single position. As the galaxy spins, there is stellar drift. To compensate, the virtual grid within the stargate slightly alters the points which the gate symbols represent. This ensures accurate targeting, because if the virtual grid isn't updated then it will be off. Eventually, though, the stars will have moved so far from their original positions, that the stargate addresses will have to be changed, but that is only after many, many years. If you know the original address, and are familiar with astronomy, then you can find the new address by compensating for the stellar drift. This is what the SGC had to do with the list of stargate addresses found by Daniel in the pilot 'COTG'. (Remember Carter saying that they would be able to get 2 or 3 destinations a month, after the computer had finished updating the new addresses?)

You are traveling inside the stargate from point a to point b, you are traveling inside the wormhole from point a to point b, and the stargate needs to create that wormhole. First it needs somewhere to target one end and then it needs somewhere to target the other end, hence the use of the point of origin. It's not that the stargate doesn't know where it is, it can very well know where it it, but it needs to know where to generate the event horizon for the wormhole, and this is the actual event horizon not the stargate generated artificial event horizon that dematerializes you. I propose that you need a point of origin to create a wormhole because you need a location at which to generate both sides, with the outgoing gate, one point if fine because the gate can know exactly where itself is, but for the incoming you need to specify an volume of space to target the wormhole. And again we come back to the inescapable discussion where I think I'm right and you think you're right and I think logic dicates that I'm right and you think that occam's razor dictates that you're right, when actually I'm right because occam's razor is flawed in this situation.

LOL..! Actually, the event horizon within the gate, IS the actual horizon to the wormhole. The Stargate acts as an anchor between 'normal' space-time and the dimension the wormhole itself travels through. The event horizon is anchored to the inner rim of the gate. The stargate creates the wormhole, and projects it to a target. The one end is always connected to the outgoing gate no matter what, even if the other end jumps for some reason. The only question is where to put the other end of the wormhole. That is where the gate addresses come in. They direct the wormhole to another star system, where the local stargate 'tags' the incoming wormhole and anchors it to itself, like someone catching a thrown rope and tying it around their waist. The PoO symbol has NOTHING to do with any of that. It ONLY acts as an activation key. That is it.

It was scientifc compared to the unscientific nature of the question. Yes it was speculative but speculative on the scientific aspects of the unscientific question. That's all I meant.

COUGH I'm right COUGH

sorry, I must have something in my throat, it feels like rightness but I can't be sure.

It is a valid question. It isn't any less scientific than "Why is the sky blue?". (saying your right doesn't make it so, my friend.) I love a good debate; but they are only good if both sides are willing to see reason first, above protecting their own theories. I completely understand what you are saying, but I'm saying that you are over-complicating matters. There is a simpler solution, and as the old maxim goes; The most simple explanation is usually the right one.

[ancientaction]

***this might be compleatly off topic***

but i think it was in this thread, were sombody said about the courtosh thingy on abydose (yea, the thing with all the known worlds addresses).

sombody said, if the point of origin exists, why did it have 7 symbols for each planet. ... when the 7th is uniuqe to the planet your alrady on...

well, heres my theory.

lets say your on .. chulack. and your best friends give you his homeworlds address. its 7 symbols. well, the first 6 are obvioius. use them whatever planet your on. but the 7th might be the 'known' point of origin for that plannet. for example.

your on some old planet. and some native give you an address of aonther old planet with natives. the address he gives you, is the first 6 for that planet and the point of origin is the point of origin for the plane tyou wont to go to, so when you get to that plannet, and find NO dhd. just dial the gate, you know what the point of origin is because its in the generic address that you were given.

[Seastallion]

***this might be compleatly off topic***

but i think it was in this thread, were sombody said about the courtosh thingy on abydose (yea, the thing with all the known worlds addresses).

sombody said, if the point of origin exists, why did it have 7 symbols for each planet. ... when the 7th is uniuqe to the planet your alrady on...

well, heres my theory.

lets say your on .. chulack. and your best friends give you his homeworlds address. its 7 symbols. well, the first 6 are obvioius. use them whatever planet your on. but the 7th might be the 'known' point of origin for that plannet. for example.

your on some old planet. and some native give you an address of aonther old planet with natives. the address he gives you, is the first 6 for that planet and the point of origin is the point of origin for the plane tyou wont to go to, so when you get to that plannet, and find NO dhd. just dial the gate, you know what the point of origin is because its in the generic address that you were given.

The first 6 are all that is necessary, because there are only 38 regular symbols, so the PoO should be easy to pick out. On the otherhand, one may use the PoO symbol to represent a specific planet (because the Stargates don't get moved from planet to planet very often). If your 'friend' already was aware of the symbols to the planet, by knowing the PoO symbol already, it may be used as a quick reference. That is why those addresses on the Cartouche at Abydos might have had the unique PoO symbols to each stargate. Essentially, in social interactions or symbology, the PoO symbol can act as a short hand when identifying particular worlds. If you recall, Teal'c asked SG-1 in the COTG where they were from. When they replied, "Earth" he stated that their words meant nothing to him. That was when Daniel understood that Teal'c wanted to know the unique PoO symbol to their world, because he was more likely to recognize that, no matter what the local name for a planet was.

The first 6 symbols are the only ones you need to reach any planet. The Seventh, simply applies to whatever planet your gating from. With the DHD you use the 'Big Red Button' which acts as the PoO symbol. When you are dialing manually, the PoO symbol allows you to activate the stargate when you've finished inputting the proper co-ordinates. It isn't used for anything else, unless your using it as shorthand communication.

[Seastallion]

The whole point of origin crap isn't right. You can't just wave it off and say "The 7th symbol is simply the point of origin". This means there can only be 36 gates in the Milky Way. And as SG-1 has proven through the years by going to so many different planets, there are far more gates out there.

How do you figure that there could only be 36 gates in the galaxy? For one thing, there are 39 symbols on a stargate. 38 of which are the co-ordinate symbols, with the one symbol (the PoO) being unique to each and every gate. The Stagate addresses are a combination of 38 different symbols, so you have a huge number of possible combinations. I'm not completely sure I calculated it right, but I think it comes up to something like, 3,010,936,384 different possible Stargates. That is a heck of a lot of stargates..! The 7th symbol acts as an activation key during manual dialings, that is all. Unless you are inputting an 8 symbol address, then it acts as an 'area code' to redirect the wormhole outside of the galaxy. In that instance, though, the '7th symbol' used is one of the 38 regular symbols, NOT the PoO symbol which then becomes the 8th symbol inputted.

So you see... the 38 co-ordinate symbols don't represent individual stargates, which is what I think you were thinking we were saying, maybe. I dunno...

edit: Looks like FallenAngel's post was deleted.

[FallenAngelII]

Why are you quadruple posting? And I can never remember if the Milky Way gates have 36 + PoO, 36 or 38 + PoO or 38 .

Also, the PoO has been a major plothole through the years. Several alien Stargates have been adorned with the Tau'ri PoO.

[Seastallion]

Why are you quadruple posting? And I can never remember if the Milky Way gates have 36 + PoO, 36 or 38 + PoO or 38 .

Also, the PoO has been a major plothole through the years. Several alien Stargates have been adorned with the Tau'ri PoO.

Quadruple posting? ( I only posted twice in a row...) Well, I have no such confusion on the matter. The PoO isn't a plot hole, although the creators of the show have had production snafu's with the Stargate. Only on a few occaisons have they bothered to change the PoO symbol on the stargate. They also once added it to the DHD, which was another mistake. Unfortunately, production doesn't always get continuity correct, and it is usually we fans that catch sight of it and our the most vocal about it. When that happens, we either come up with some sort of means to explain it away, or just ignore it altogether. As to that particular snafu just mentioned, I simply ignore it.

[_Owen_]

LOL..! Your right. I'll give you that. Since then though, I had done a lot of work on it. If you go back a page or two, you'll see an entire post, with most of the posts I've made in this thread (quite a few). They are in order, so you can go back and read them. It is canon, that you can NOT have more than one stargate in the same star system on at the SAME time. You can have more than one gate, but you can't use them simultaneously. Remember 'Watergate'?



See my post above with the nice pictures. We agree on that part, except that you are unclear on precisely how the stargate symbols are used to find another stargate. That is where the pan-galactic X,Y,Z cordinate map grid comes into play. (Like the pics) You plug the symbols in to allow the stargates internal computer to pinpoint your destination in the galaxy. The X,Y,Z axis cross paths to identify a specific location. (This time don't diss my bad drawing... It's only a rough sketch of the general idea.)



No, I'm not. Knowing where you are in relation to the other stargate is not a requirement. A Stargate address will work anywhere regardless of where you are creating the wormhole from, precisely BECAUSE the means by which a stargate targets another gate is NOT from a star-to-star perspective. It is from a self-updating predesigned pan-galactic map grid. The symbols on the gate represent incremental points on the virtual grid used to cross-reference a position when all 6 points are used, to cross axis over a single position. As the galaxy spins, there is stellar drift. To compensate, the virtual grid within the stargate slightly alters the points which the gate symbols represent. This ensures accurate targeting, because if the virtual grid isn't updated then it will be off. Eventually, though, the stars will have moved so far from their original positions, that the stargate addresses will have to be changed, but that is only after many, many years. If you know the original address, and are familiar with astronomy, then you can find the new address by compensating for the stellar drift. This is what the SGC had to do with the list of stargate addresses found by Daniel in the pilot 'COTG'. (Remember Carter saying that they would be able to get 2 or 3 destinations a month, after the computer had finished updating the new addresses?)



LOL..! Actually, the event horizon within the gate, IS the actual horizon to the wormhole. The Stargate acts as an anchor between 'normal' space-time and the dimension the wormhole itself travels through. The event horizon is anchored to the inner rim of the gate. The stargate creates the wormhole, and projects it to a target. The one end is always connected to the outgoing gate no matter what, even if the other end jumps for some reason. The only question is where to put the other end of the wormhole. That is where the gate addresses come in. They direct the wormhole to another star system, where the local stargate 'tags' the incoming wormhole and anchors it to itself, like someone catching a thrown rope and tying it around their waist. The PoO symbol has NOTHING to do with any of that. It ONLY acts as an activation key. That is it.



It is a valid question. It isn't any less scientific than "Why is the sky blue?". (saying your right doesn't make it so, my friend.) I love a good debate; but they are only good if both sides are willing to see reason first, above protecting their own theories. I completely understand what you are saying, but I'm saying that you are over-complicating matters. There is a simpler solution, and as the old maxim goes; The most simple explanation is usually the right one.

No, I'm perfectly clear on how the Stargate targets, we just disagree to the accuracy. You think that is get sends the wormhole to a general area and the gate is like a magnet. I think it is more specified and identifies a single planet's orbit, allowing for multiple gates in a single solar system.

Actually it isn't cannon, Watergate is not a valid example because both gates were on Earth, even if there was a gate on the moon in would not be valid because the moon crosses within the earths orbit. My theory accepts that only one gate can be used at a time on a single planet. Well to be more specific it doesn't say deny the fact, but it also doesn't accept it. in theory if a second gate dialed in the wormhole would be pulled to the inactive gate and if a second gate were to dial out it wouldn't matter because the point of origin would be different.

The stargate doesn't need to know where it is in relation to another stargate the stargate needs to know where it is period so it has a place to create one end of the wormhole. I'm not denying that your virtual grid would need to be updated, but that has nothing to do with anything. I will state it in one clear and concise sentence. The Stargate uses the point of origin as a targetting point for the starting end of the wormhole.

I don't know where you learned this, I guess I have been away to long The "event horizon" that you see within the stargate, that blue thingy is not the naturally occuring event horizon that you would normally see for a wormhole. As far as I know natural wormholes don't have the ability to dematerialize matter and transmit information across space. The event horizon you see, the blue thing is artificially created by the stargate, the stargate uses it to demateriaize matter and scan the matter, the Stargate then transmits the information through the wormhole ahead of the dematerialized matter to the recieving gate. The wormhole's event horizon is located for all intents and purposes extra-"dimensionally" even though it's not technically a dimension, along with the wormhole itself.

The Stargate needs the seventh chevron to give targetting point for the begining end of the wormhole, you know very well were you are you know where the stargate is, but the stargate is an inanimate object and by pressing the seventh chevron it updates the point of origin which momentarily a point in the immediate vicinity of the stargate, that is where the stargate will target the wormhole. AGREED, the point of origin isn't necessary, but in my opinion that is what it is for.

Actually Occam's Razor says "entities should not be multiplied beyond necesity" human's, having to dumb everything down, decided it should say the simplest thing is right, when occams razor says nothing like that.

Anyways, if you want to play with Occam's Razor than I will jump in, "entities should not be multiplied beyond necesity." Wonderful, I am not multiplying anything beyond necesity. My theory enables the use of multiple stargates in a solar system simulataneously. If I wanted to multiply some entities it could look something like this. When the stargates want to work a little man in a grey suit walks all the way to the top of the empire state building, he then builds a space ship and flys into orbit circling the planet six times before landing in Russia. He then walks to London, England and climbs to the top of Big Ben, where the builds a superpowerful subspace array and connects it to his pocket watch, then with a five billion digit hexadecimal code it beams a message to God. God then puts it in a file and looks it over for a thousand days and a thousand nights before deciding this is a job for Batman. He writes down the message and throws it down to Batman, Batman gets it and builds an antigravity generator, he then flys to Cheyenne mountain and stands right behind the stargate, they activate it but Batman catches the wormhole (ha ha, nice try there) then he flys to the destination and drops it down, on his way back to Earth he drops grabs a gate from some Goa'uld stronghold, having both his legs and arms shot off with bubblegum guns, he drops the gate off on mars and manually dials the gate then he drags that wormhole all the way to the destination, by then his arms and legs have grown back (because he's batman) and he lives happily ever after.

That^ would be a violation of Occam's Razor, my idea, is not. I am willing to look at reason, I just accept my idea, because it seems more logical to me, for just a bit more, you can have more than one stargate working in a solar system, as far as I know there is no scientific aspect prohibiting that, and nothing in the cannon says so either, so using logic, it would seem that the ancients would be intelligent enough that they would realize the benefits of having more than one gate in a solar system, and the ability to dial within solar systems. Anyways, I don't think we will agree so if you don't want to continue this I am perfectly content on believing what I believe and allowing you to beleive what you believe and accepting that you may never believe my idea and you could accept that I will certainly never believe your's over mine.

[haley_of_chulak]

I was wondering (forgive me if that has been mentioned here, or anywhere else on the boards) when they go to another planet, do they have to find the point of origin each time? In the pilot episode, they did, because Daniel had to find the point of origin. But it's never seen again that he has to find the point of origin..

[_Owen_]

I'm sure it has been asked, but no problem. The answer is yes, they do have to find the point of origin every time. The reason you don't see Daniel, or someone examining the DHD as he did in the movie and stuff, is likely because he has studied the gate to such an extent that he has the already existing symbols memorized and can easily pinpoint the "odd man out." Also I would assume that the point of origin is in the same place each time, it wouldn't make much sense to jumble everything around for each varios gate.

[LORD MONK]

All of this is made up. If you listen to Daniel he explains it and then Carter explains it. Just take there word for it. How can you take someones story and say that isn't how it goes. You don't need it when it is there story and they made it all up to begin with. I TPTB wants they can every time the gate activates Monkeys shoot out of it. We would have to say, O.K.

So take what you know, not what you think, and just except it as Stargate Fact. It doesn't have to be Scientifically correct. If it does then lets debate the hole Gate system and how that can't work to begin with because there are only 39 symbols with one being the point of origin. Or how about a flyng city the size of Manhatten.