Bouncing Between Gates

[LiquidBlue]

I agree with Quakerbone. I think we are looking at the same idea from different objectives. I was speculating on the technological possibility that stargates might be used for long distance travel. Quakerbone seems to have added the very practical (of course we remeber that this is fiction) consideration that it is not likely that there is a path one might take to travel between these two galaxies.

What if we consider the question - How might the stargates be used to travel between earth and Atlantis without using a ZPM?

I wish to offer one scenario. It draws upon my previous "bouncing" proposal. I will assume that the following are possible:

1) A person can be loaded in a stargate's send buffer.
2) An outgoing wormhole can be established without clearing the buffer.
3) A useful amount of information can be transfered from the sending buffer to the receiving buffer in a very short amount of time.

These are only 3 features of a stargate that are necessarily for the following intergalactic travel scheme. For example, to travel from atlantis to earth one would do the following.

1) Establish the protocol on both ends.
2) Load the people and objects you want to send into the atlantis gate send buffer.
3) Connect to the earth stargate in the same way as message in the bottle, taking care that the send buffer is not cleared in the process.
4) In the miniscule time that the wormhole is active the contents of the send buffer are transfered to the contents of the receive buffer.
5) According to this protocol, the earth gate will not materialize these people and objects -- The event horizon wouldn't last long enough in case to do so. Instead the earth gate creates a not connecting event horizon after the wormhole disengages and the travelers are rematerialized?

Thus intergalactic travel is made possible.

[_Owen_]

Your idea for intergalactic travel without a ZPM, is a good one, the only problem is, for it, you would need a ZPM, in the episode "Letters From Pegasus," I believe they use the very small amount of power in the ZPMs to dial Earth, but the power was only great enough to sustain the wormhole for just over a second. We know that you can't establish an eight chevron lock without some other power source, see, "The Fifth Race," they cannot redial the adress that O'Neill goes to becuase sufficient power is not avilable. So, while your idea is a very good one, and you would not need a fully charged ZPM, you would need a little extra power. Sorry. I like your idea, though it is smart, and well thought out, you just missed one thing, which would have been easy to miss. Sorry again.

Owen Macri

[LiquidBlue]

Special self destructing crystal placed in gate.

Here is a go at an idea from the original poster.

We have seen that the SGC has the abilities to create and load custom programs into any standard DHD in the galaxy. What uses could they put it to. So far they have tried one:

Remotely disabling the dial out ability of a DHD. Unfortunately, Ba'al noticed that one of his gates had stopped working, and quickly made figured out what had happened.

Perhaps there might be some more covert uses.

1) Program DHDs so that they broadcast the location/address of the originating gate. Useful to the SGC when they might wonder where a wormhole is coming from.

2) Have the DHDs record and regularly transmit the records of all gate travel including origin, destination, and duration. It would certainly give them much intelligence concerning anyone they cared to inquire about. (Would Daniel worry about the privacy concerns?)

3) Lock out Earth's address. That is, whenever Earth is dialed the DHD and gate would pretend that the gate wasn't there or was buried. SG teams could use special 10-15 symbol strings, that periodicly change, to dial earth.

4) Hijack wormholes. You know that big bad enemy is on planet A. You reprogram the DHD on that planet so that all wormholes lead to a specially selected place, with many big men with stunners.

5) For those with a more evil bent - Hijack a wormhole. Every time someone dials an address it leads some where nasty, e.g. a wormhole.

6) Reverse Hijacking. Instead of sending every wormhole from a particular planet somewhere else, send every wormhole intended to a certain gate somewhere else.

etc.

What do you think? Any other ideas?

[_Owen_]

Those are some good ideas, and many are very plausible. Nice post.

Number three definetly has potential, as long as you could override from the location, incase you had to use that gate. But you could always dail somewhere not locked out and then to Earth. So yes, number three definetly has some potential.

Well actually they all have potential I just particularly noticed number three.

Owen Macri

[LiquidBlue]

More Fun with Gate/DHD programming

• Rolling Denial of Service: You want to make sure that a certain gate cannot be used to dial out. You connect a wormhole to it. When that wormhole can no longer be maintained and it disconnects, you have another gate dial in. That is, it is already dialing when the wormhole disengages. You would be any one dialing out because they cannot start dialing until after the wormhole disengages. (Note that this isn't strict a DHD programming issue, with coordination and effective communication, anyone with two gates could do it. Imagine the trouble earth would have been in is a Goa'uld, see for example Sokar, had used this strategy.)
  
• DHD Russian Roulette: This has the similar effect that the Avenger virus has, that is it disrupts gate travel, but it has the added advantage that it is not immediately obvious that something is wrong. A wormhole is still established.
  
• Russian Roullette II: Each object going through the gate has random chance of rematerializing. This accomplished by either note sending the object complete flag or ignoring the object complete flag - depending on the gate to be programed. Imagine what would happen to gate travel if it was realized that one only had a certain chance of coming out again!
  
• Freenet: Each DHD acts as a node. During correlative updates (which may need to be increased in frequency) the nodes also transmit other information. Thus messages may be passed from one DHD to another anonymously. The perfect tool for the secret agent (see Tok'ra) that needs to be able communicate with other worlds without having to resort to extra and incriminating technology. Works even better if the DHD can be programmed to work as a terminal for reading and composing messages.
  
• Object Authentication: Equip SG teams with object that leave a certain signature when dematerialized, have the gate search the matter streams for that signature. If the signature is not found then treat that object as if the object complete flag is not set.

[LiquidBlue]

I missed one.

• Dialing for Power. Use the dial multiple gates function. Dial the gate that you want to send objects to and a gate that is in an environment that provides power to the gate (such as the blackhole gate). We have never seen what happens to an object that passes through a stargate connected to multiple gates, but I am going to imagine that it is possible to specify which gate is going to receive the object and that the rest of the connections only pass EM energy. Assuming that this is possible, you have a method to power high enery connections and/or maintain a wormhole for a non-standard time. (One would have to prepare the means to disengage the wormhole seperately.)

[mightydefiant]

I got one: A way to do a redail/recall:good for sending meany items to another planet like when they moved the alpa site and when running after someone and you didn't see all the symbles before it disengaed.

[_Owen_]

Lol, good posts guys!

Owen Macri

[LiquidBlue]

Anubis seems to have less nasty imagination than I do. Perhaps it is because we couldn't let our protagonists die. Was there any advantage to his solution? (Bouncing an unathenthicated traveler vs. Erasing an unathenticated traveler)

Spoiler:

We now know that the following is possible:
1) It is possible to establish a wormhole without clearing the pattern buffer.
2) It is possible to re-transmit objects from the receive buffer without first materializing them.
3) It is possible to anylze objects within the buffer and discriminate between them.

The episode DHD used a special control circuit to accomplish this. It is not clearly whether any of this could be done with a software solution.

[Three PhDs]

As stated in the episode, which you all seemed to have missed, the gate stores the info it has received, then just calls back out and sends it on. What's all this 14 chevron crap?

[Ollock]

A few Questions:

1 A Wormhole has only two parts in real space, the event horizons at either end. The tunnel goes through Hyperspace/supspace/nonspace or whatever you call it. This stated, how would you make a wormhole go through an extra stargate if the only part of a wormhole that can interact with the Stargate is not present?

2 Event horizon without the wormhole? Please state how this is possible. I really don't think it can be done, even with a black or white hole generated, as I have never heard of anything but a specific type wormhole having a flat event horizon (most objects with event horizons have spherical ones),

[LiquidBlue]

A few Questions:

1 A Wormhole has only two parts in real space, the event horizons at either end. The tunnel goes through Hyperspace/supspace/nonspace or whatever you call it. This stated, how would you make a wormhole go through an extra stargate if the only part of a wormhole that can interact with the Stargate is not present?

Unfortunatley, to my mind, it is not the case that the wormholes seen in stargate do not interact with mudanse matter and space. This can be seen from the episodes "1969" and "Red Sky.

In "1969" A wormhole interacted with a solar flare in such a way the the detination was continuously varied depending on the time at which one entered the gate. (See specificly the second and third travels of that episode.)

In the episode "Red Sky", a wormhole introduced certainly elements that were incompatible with continued stellar fusion. the was latter corrrected by having another wormhole with other elements pass through that same star and disengage in wuch a way that those elements re-materialized within the star. (At least that is the theory.)

Thus we see that the path and structure of the wormhole can and does interact with ordinary space and matter to a limited extent. Ollock, your question remains. How could one use a third stargate in the manner described by Stan in the post that that created this thread.

Two gates make a connection and it takes a lot of power.

Can a third be used as a relay?

Instead of a seven character address, it would be thirteen or fourteen symbols in length?

Dial in thirty seven symbol scrambled a address and travel from A to B, via C, D, E and F...

In my first reply to this thread I offered the following anlysis:

I don't think that these would be possible, but not for the reasons already stated.

The number of chevrons should not be a problem. It would mean using a custom program in the DHD. I think that it would be a problem because it would introduce a new mode of operation for the stargate. Right now we have three.

1) Connect to 1 stargate send.
2) Connect to 1 stargate receive.
3) Conect to many stargates and ???? (I am not sure what the properties are of a conection to many stargates)

We would need to introduce a fourth mode of operation.

4) Connect to a sending stargate, connect to a receiving stargate and pass from one to the other.

We still do not know that such a fourth mode of operation is possible. My recollection of "Prototype" is that it did not invoke this mode of operation, but rather employed the "Bouncing" protocol I have described, and I will provide an overview of this protocol further in this post.

2 Event horizon without the wormhole? Please state how this is possible. I really don't think it can be done, even with a black or white hole generated, as I have never heard of anything but a specific type wormhole having a flat event horizon (most objects with event horizons have spherical ones),

I may be wrong, and I would welcome any corrections or further illumination, but according to current, real life physics theorys. A Wormhole if created would not be surrounded by an even horizon. In fact, I beleive that it has been suggestted that this is one reason why wormholes cannot naturely exist, or possibly even created. The idea is that "feedback" between the two opening would lead towards infinite energy densities within the wormhole pinching it off. I believe it has been suggested that this may not completely preclude wormholes, but that it would create a minimum distance between the two entrances.

However, Olleck, you question was concerning an event horizon with establishing a wormhole. I believe you were referring to the protocol I wrote concerning a means to travel btween MW and pegasus without the need for a worm-hole connection that lasts for any great amount of time. For clarity I will include that protocol.

What if we consider the question - How might the stargates be used to travel between earth and Atlantis without using a ZPM?

I wish to offer one scenario. It draws upon my previous "bouncing" proposal. I will assume that the following are possible:

1) A person can be loaded in a stargate's send buffer.
2) An outgoing wormhole can be established without clearing the buffer.
3) A useful amount of information can be transfered from the sending buffer to the receiving buffer in a very short amount of time.

These are only 3 features of a stargate that are necessarily for the following intergalactic travel scheme. For example, to travel from atlantis to earth one would do the following.

1) Establish the protocol on both ends.
2) Load the people and objects you want to send into the atlantis gate send buffer.
3) Connect to the earth stargate in the same way as message in the bottle, taking care that the send buffer is not cleared in the process.
4) In the miniscule time that the wormhole is active the contents of the send buffer are transfered to the receive buffer.
5) According to this protocol, the earth gate will not materialize these people and objects -- The event horizon wouldn't last long enough in case to do so. Instead the earth gate creates a not connecting event horizon after the wormhole disengages and then travelers are rematerialized

Specifically is it possible to create a not connecting Event Horizon so that both people can be loaded into a stargate's buffer, and so that people can be recovered froma stargate buffer? The answer has been provided in the episode "48 hours." In this episode, the establish a not connecting event horizon to recover Tea'c who had become trapped within the buffer.

We must then ask our selves what is this event horizon. It is not necessarily associated with wormholes, rather it seems to associated with the transformation between objects and information suitable for storage and transmission. The definition is consistent with the even seen in Altantis's "38 minutes". That is, once an object passed through the even horizon it could no longer interact with objects on the other side. This fits with the generally understood definition of an event horizon.

For completeness I will include the "Bouncing Protocol." This is the reason I came back to this thread. "Prototype" showed that the condition I describe as necessary, are in fact possible in the stargate world.

Actually, I suppose that there might be another way to "bounce" from one stargate to another. You could use a program similar to avenger. It would be programed to change the programming on the receving stargate so that it would hold the travelers in buffer instead of rematerializing them. When the worm hole was was ended, it would then dial another gate, connect a wormhole without wiping the contents of the buffer, then pass the avenger-like program and the passangers to the next gate. In this manner travels could be passed from gate to gate.

This option would require a number of things:

1) An Avenger-like program could be created that could change gate functions, and not just DHD functions.
2) A worm-hole connection can be made without clearing the buffer. (i.e. through the characteristic whoosh. In 48 hours they did not establish a wormhole connection.)
3) The recieve buffer can be fed into an outgoing worm-hole. This could be problematic for example the interpretation of the buffer contents is unique to the specific connection, or if the receive and send buffers are seperate.

"Prototype" established that conditions 2 and 3 are possible. It is still not known that a DHD could be remotely reprogrammed to enable this type of operation. But the episode does show that it is possible to modify a DHD to perform these tasks.

I now submit to forum. Why would a "nice" guy like Anubis merely bounce unauthenticated travels to another planet when there are many things he could do to these travelers that would be must less pleasant?

[Orange Crush]

^He was probably more concerned with being discovered by another Goa'uld. Think about it, if he just forwarded any organic matter, (And a Goa'uld MALP is organic--it's called a Jaffa) it would've wound up on a random boring planet, the Jaffa would report nothing of interest to their system lord. However, if the Jaffa didn't come back after some diabolical maiming job, their masters might suspect something juicy and worth sending a scout ship to check out.

Sure Anubis could've defended the planet and all, but it's easier not to have to in the first place.

"nothing to see here, move along . . . "

-Nick

[LiquidBlue]

Perhaps the most interesting Gate technology to be reveiled in "Prototype" is the ability to analyze and manipulate objects within the buffer. With this true, one might wish to speculate on the limits of such actions.

First of all what kind of object analysis is possible? In the epsiode it was speculated that one could differentiate between organic and inorganic objects. Can one also differentiate objects based on their mass? Based on their volume? Based on the elements they contain?

Such simple analysis would be useful. One could let a person through, but not a ship for example bassed on the mass or volume. Or one could exclude an object that contains naquadah, or uranium, or plutonium. Perhaps one could decide not to materize a stream of energetic particles such as those which Sokar used to try to breach the iris.

The ability to manipulate objects is likely constrained to the decision to re-materialize the object or not.

Another possibility is one of knowledge. How do you defend against travelers that are invisible such as the Re'tu or the aliens from "Spirits". How do you defend against an object that can pass through the iris, such as with the Tollan phasing technology.

Perhaps one could quarantine all incoming travels, then determine whether to rematerialize them. For defense against those objects which can pass through the iris this is easy. You have the iris closed as a defense, while the iris is in defense mode, you refuse to rematerialize any incoming traveler. This has the added bonus that one has the option of bouncing them to another gate. In this way, the iris no longer an automatic death sentence.

For the invisible travels more care would be taken, they infiltrate by accompanying unknowing, legitimate travelers. In this case we would depend on some sort of object analysis If no information beyond the number of travelers is known and this number differs from the authorized number of travelers, or if one must deal within an unknown group, then one could simply rematerize the travelers one at a time within a sealed and quarantened area. If other anaylsis is available it may be possible to approve or reject travelers passed on other criteria.

The SGC with its custom gate controllers would be ideally situated to take adavantage of this new gate knowledge. Even if it would be difficult to implement changes in other, remote gates, the security of the SGC from incoming wormholes could be increased.

[Three PhDs]

For the invisible travels more care would be taken, they infiltrate by accompanying unknowing, legitimate travelers. In this case we would depend on some sort of object analysis If no information beyond the number of travelers is known and this number differs from the authorized number of travelers, or if one must deal within an unknown group, then one could simply rematerize the travelers one at a time within a sealed and quarantened area. If other anaylsis is available it may be possible to approve or reject travelers passed on other criteria.

Ignoring for a second that "Out of phase" is a complete joke, even those travellers would have to be made of either matter or energy, and thus would register when travelling through.