GateWorld's Vision Statement .Suggestions welcome

[Laura Dove]

And this brings me to something that no-one has discussed yet. Looking at the more general picture, and not the minutae of detail. Should we extend the same rules about belittling and negative personal comments to characters as we do to real people?

I'm hesitant about that. While I feel uncomfortable with repeated posts about how to torture and kill a given character, I also feel the need for people to express their concerns about the character freely. Take Keller in "The Shrine". I don't agree with the opinion that she's unprofessional for her decisions in the episode (actually, I even find she was the most professional of the whole team), but I wouldn't like a forum where people are forbidden to say they feel she was.

So IMO, expressing how people would love to kill a character in the most slow and painful way should be forbidden, calling it names should be forbidden, but harshly criticising its behaviour should be authorised. The difference between calling the character names and criticising it is more in the language itself than the meaning ("McKay is a son of a ...", no, but "McKay is arrogant and insulting", yes).

Well thats a start anyways, I just thought we might try something a little more constructive now that quite a few general concerns etc have been aired. Does anyone else think that this approach would be worthwhile pursuing?

Interesting thoughts. I agree that the first step, before even deciding whether or not a specific vision statement is needed on top of the existing rules, should be to decide what exactly the goal is.

All along 1000 posts, I've seen a confusion between two very different visions of what GateWorld should become:

• "The issue is personal attacks plus negativity": A place for fans to celebrate a show they love; while people are allowed to dislike some part of the show and say so, they are not supposed to discuss it in depth, they just say it once and then leave the thread to people who praise it;
• "The issue is personal attacks plus constructivity": A place for fans to discuss a show they love; all people who feel invested in Stargate are encouraged to discuss constructively their views on the show, whether positive, negative, or anything in-between.

I personally am not interested the least in the first possibility; there are already MGM and SciFi sites if I want praise of the franchise. Everybody wants to make GateWorld a more pleasant place, but to me, the first one is NOT a pleasant place to be around. On the other hand, I have little possibilities in real life to discuss Stargate (I discuss each new episode with the friend I see them with, but that makes maybe 1 or 2 hours discussions a week at most, and I crave more, much more). I don't care for praise; I came here for discussion and pictures. However, other people seem to seek more a haven far away from any criticism of their beloved show, possibly because they are faced with bullying in real life for enjoying Stargate. If people are still allowed to criticise the show, they won't be happy unless they retreat in pro-threads.

As long as the general direction is not decided, there can't be any constructive discussion on the wording of the vision statement itself, considering not everybody aims at the same goal. Several people have wondered why some still feel that negative comments will be silenced, in effect if not in intention? And why we're still going in circles after 1000 posts? Maybe that's the answer: The mods and part of the people disagree on what GateWorld should be.

Find a common point that isn't hostile towards another that you can ralley around. Instead of spending your days bashing another pairing, or lamenting the existence of something you don't like, find something that you like instead and spend your time on that.

But there is a whole range between bashing and criticising. And just because people spend time on things they dislike don't mean they don't also spend time on things they like.

All the posts in the world aren't going to make your disliked item vanish.

The item, no. But what about the dislike itself? After "The Lost Tribe", I discussed in length how I hated Todd's reaction at the beginning of the episode, in the pro-Todd and/or the pro-wraith threads. Some people agreed with my peeve, some didn't, but we all were able to discuss our concerns or the absence thereof like intelligent people, and at the end of the day, even though I still feel the scene is poorly written, I don't hate Todd any more because I was able to come up with an explanation that satisfies me enough.

Of course, I'm a regular in those threads so people know me, and of course, my posts were "help me love him again!" more than "he's just crap and nothing may ever redeem him". But if I hadn't been welcome to not only post my concerns once, but also throw ideas back and forth about it, I wouldn't have been able to come to terms with it. My most beloved character would have remained definitively spoilt for me, and I would probably have ended up selling my DVDs and never getting involved with anything Stargate again. I would have moved on, yes. Away from Stargate and from GateWorld.

Back to the vision statement. At first I was favourable to merging anti and pro threads into one big discussion thread because I personally love discussion (to be honest, both pro and anti threads bore me), but after reading so many comments, I understand other people may want a place where they'll just be able to rest among like-minded fans. Also pictures are not really relevant in a discussion thread, unless they are here to illustrate a given point. Perhaps there should be 3 threads (pro / anti / discussion), or 2 (discussion / pictures)? I'm undecided, but as I said below, the first step would be to decide to what direction GateWorld should go.

[Pegasus_SGA]

At the end of the day, it doesn't really make any difference as to whether people agree or disagree with the vision statement. This is Darren's decision, and as Darren pays the bills. So what he says go. Yes he's asked for input, but the decision rests with him. As i'm sure a few people have said about the house analogy it is Darren's house and we are his guests. As such would we go to a 'friends' house where they're having a large gathering and snark at the people he's invited? Would we belittle and curse at those friends because we don't always see eye to eye with them and find ways to insult the way he runs his house? No of course we wouldn't. So how is this any different?

All Darren and the mods are asking is that whilst we're on his 'property' that we treat everyone with respect and how we'd like to be treated. Which is the main rules to being with. And that if you're in his 'house', and you're having a conversation with someone, even if you disagree with what they're saying, say it how you'd say it to their face... (hopefully) with respect, or if you feel you can't, walk away. Would you come to a social gathering and just go on and on about his friends, about how you dislike them, and wish they'd go away, or that you'd wish for something tragic to happen to them? Would you constantly say to other 'guests' at his 'house' that you can't stand them and they're ruining the 'party' for you? Or would you try and find some commonality with them and build on that? The forum is no different. Just remember, these people that you converse with aren't strangers, they're just friends you've never met.

Ultimately though, If you don't behave in Darren's house, then he has the right to ask you to leave, or place you on the 'naughty step' until you learn what's right and what's wrong.

[Falcon Horus]

I think "we" also die younger! lol Meh, who wants to live to be old anyway.

I hope that 100-gene is present in my DNA - will see.

**** Back to discussion:

I think one way to get back on track is to get to know each other again. To look behind the labels and the nicknames. To find out what it is that drives each and every one of us besides our love for Stargate to be here.

I think that could already work out a lot of kinks... but you know it's just a suggestion.

[Pegasus_SGA]

I hope that 100-gene is present in my DNA - will see.

**** Back to discussion:

I think one way to get back on track is to get to know each other again. To look behind the labels and the nicknames. To find out what it is that drives each and every one of us besides our love for Stargate to be here.

I think that could already work out a lot of kinks... but you know it's just a suggestion.

Agreed, I never liked labels, and I do think that people (and I mean that generally) put people in these little boxes and stereotype them, and the feeling I get is that once people are labeled they can never be anything but those labels. Or if someone says something you don't like, ie a certain character. The next time that person posts it's like all people can remember is that they're a xxxx hater instead that's just one part of them. They may adore everything else, but that one little thing they dislike can cause problems because people (generally) latch onto the negative. When really the whole point is to not see for that one piece of negativity, but to stay focused on the positivity.

So people like Seasons 1 to 3 only. Great lets talk about how great a time that was. So people loved Ford, okay we'll talk about the great stuff of what Ford brought to the show. So they hate Shep, but love Rodney. Okay let's focus on Rodney while i'm talking to you. People are not going to change their minds. They like what they like and nothing anyone says will change that. So what the mods and Darren are saying is to stay focused in those areas. If you don't like something, say you don't like it, but try and keep it balanced, which from what i've seen most people can do... if they put their mind to it.

[Hubble]

I wasn't trying to say that the blame should be on the producers/directors anymore than it should be on the writers. As a whole, if the person doesn't like the show it usually is because they (the fan) do not like the direction the show is going. They then blame the people involved in producing said show, even though they shouldn't. I know I've done it with other shows, I tend to place blame on the shift in direction on ALL involved who are PTB, not just one set of PTB behind the scenes.

Sometimes, imho, it can be the writer/director/producers fault that the show is taking a way wrong direction (I've seen it happen) and I don't have a problem with fans blaming them. Yes, ultimately the show is the creator/director/producer/writer's baby, but if they want that baby to grow and flurish, they need to at least take into account the majority of fans since we are the ones who go out and buy the products that are advertised during the show who are usually backers for said show. OR we go out and spend tons of money on the DVDs and memoriblia, which if their agents were smart, they get a cut. So in round about way, fans are paying their wages. Don't bite the hand that feeds you too much or you'll go hungry eventually.

The question remains though: What is it that the majority of the fans want? I know what the S/J shippers want, what the D/V shippers want, what the Jack/Daniel fans want, what the Shep/McKay fans want, what the anti-Sam fans want, what the anti-Keller fans want, etc. Beyond that, what the majority of fans who don't post on these forums want, I have no clue. I honestly believe that if the PTB knew what the majority of all the fans wanted, they would easily give it to them.

Personally, I've very seldom purchased any products I've seen advertised while watching the show or ANY show. I did buy all the DVDs except for the last 2 seasons, but I have no sense that the PTB owe ME anything.

[Laura Dove]

At the end of the day, it doesn't really make any difference as to whether people agree or disagree with the vision statement. This is Darren's decision, and as Darren pays the bills. So what he says go.

Absolutely. However, imagine someone organises a party and claims "Everybody is welcome, make yourself comfortable! I want you to feel at home!". But then, he requires that people who are not pretty enough put make-up on their face or wear "prettier" clothes they are uncomfortable in; the reason being that otherwise, their ugliness spoils other people's enjoyment. If that happens, there WILL be resentment.

So, are only elegant people invited in the party, or anybody, regardless of their appearance, as long as they are polite with each other? If you claim the second but apply the first, that can't go well.

[Pegasus_SGA]

Absolutely. However, imagine someone organises a party and claims "Everybody is welcome, make yourself comfortable! I want you to feel at home!". But then, he requires that people who are not pretty enough put make-up on their face or wear "prettier" clothes they are uncomfortable in; the reason being that otherwise, their ugliness spoils other people's enjoyment. If that happens, there WILL be resentment.

So, are only elegant people invited in the party, or anybody, regardless of their appearance, as long as they are polite with each other? If you claim the second but apply the first, that can't go well.

But you could be dressed in a bin bag and look as ugly as sin and still have a great personality and be respectful and look at the good things that have happened. IE you're not living on the streets, you've actually been invited to a party instead of sitting at home with no one to talk to.. All Darren is saying is make the best of what you've got. He's not telling everyone to be something they're not, he's simply saying, make an effort.

This is a fan site, and within it there will always be positives and negatives about stories, about characters about plots etc. Would it be that difficult to find a balance? No one is saying saying something negative is being banned, what is being said is that fans look at things more holistically rather than concentrating on one thing. Use your posts to promote discussions on the board if you can as opposed to using closed posts, use open posts to promote people joining in. And what I mean about closed and open posts is...

Closed post: Well, that was the biggest load of crap that i've seen all year. TPTB just haven't got a clue.

Open post: I have to say it wasn't the greatest of episodes. I wasn't sure what they were trying to do with plot x, but I don't feel it worked because... I wish that TPTB would have gone xxx way with the plot, I feel it might have worked better, what do you think?

See with the 'closed post' it's hard to get in there because they're closed statements. If you open it up to your reasons, then it promotes discussion because you're inviting people to talk about your post. Does that make sense?

[Hubble]

But why should it be so hard for those with negative opinions to see positive opinions posted, and vice versa? Why can your opinion only be discussed with those who feel the same way and will reinforce your opinion? Is it so painful for an Anti to be faced with the fact that some peope like what they hate? Or for a pro to be confronted with the fact that some people hated what they enjoyed?.....{snip}.

I totally agree with you, but any time people come together to form a group, no matter what the common interest is, you are going to get people with different levels of maturity, sensitivity; some people are more emotional than others; some are more logical than others.

Certainly if someone loves Daniel/Vala for example, it shouldn't bother someone who dislikes that pairing and vice versa. But for a certain segment of viewers of this show (or other shows) watching their favorite characters is a comfort thing; it extends far beyond just tuning in for an hour a week to watch the show.

People can project whatever they want onto characters and can get very defensive. For some people, seeing criticism of their favorite character is perceived like criticism of a close friend, family member or almost an attack on one's personal beliefs and tastes.

It's not logical, but it's reality.

[airrick]

I personally think it had a lot to do with 'hateworld' becoming a known moniker, and a look at how many 'used to be regular' posters have left, because they couldn't stand the hostility and poor attitudes of people here

Its always good to show that we as adults are concerned with what other people around the net think of us LOL


Is there any promise that those people that left will come back for a candyland like atmosphere?

I am generally a realist when it comes to everything.. I can see the positive and the negative BUT I believe what people want is real responses, real reactions and real conversation..

Does it come as any surprise to anyone here that with the cancellation of BOTH shows in a relatively short time would lead to a huge amount of very angry fans?

The people that are mad and negative about the current situation are the same as the people that are still in love with the show..

[Stormtrooper]

Well said. With rights come responsibility. All viewpoints are welcome here, as long as you can play within the rules. So with the right to stand up and say what you feel you have the responsibility to phrase that viewpoint in a non-inflammatory way.

That's not my understanding. The vision statement is quite clear: 1) say positive things about Stargate, or leave; 2) if you really need to criticize something about the show, say it once and beat off. Needless to say, such RULES will be enforced by the mods next year because the fanboy/girl sect will make sure they do enforce the new rules, be it by reporting negative posts left and right, or by harassing anyone who dares criticize anything Stargate. So nope, not all viewpoints are welcome at GW anymore, only positive ones.

[KatG]

I wonder if darren wants this change because if TPTB stopped reading this forum really then maybe he is worried about his site receiving set access and interviews and whatever else the actors/producers grant to gateworld as the major portal for stargate fans?

I think Darren wants this change, because it's the vision he's always had for his forum. Darren is basically a nice guy. He cares about people and if he errs, it's generally in the direction of giving people multiple chances to improve rather than coming down fast and hard, sometimes much to my chagrin in the early days when I was modding. But I joined the forum, and I agreed to mod for a time, because I agreed, and still do agree with Darren's basic vision for the forum.

I personally am a dyed in the wool, unapologetic S/J shipper. Always have been. I liked Jacob, wasn't that bothered when Michael Shanks left, truly believe that Jack sniffed Sam's hair and will argue with my last dying breath that it's green. But two of my closest friends on this forum, only agree with me on one point in there. And my other very close friend here agrees with probably about half of them. But all four of us are very, very close, manage to have rousing discussions on the topics and still remain friends and have for nearly 7 1/2 years now. Because at the end of the day we respect each other as people who love different aspects of the same show.

This is what I think Darren is trying to bring the forum back too. People who like, or have liked Stargate in the past, who want to discuss it with others who like, or have liked Stargate in the past and want to do so in a respectful matter that allows for many varying opinions.

There's an analogy about playing catch that's apropos I think. When you're playing catch with someone there's two ways you can do it. You can throw the ball, so hard that it injures the other person or scares them so badly that they quit playing, or you can throw it in a matter that allows them to catch it and throw it back, thus allowing you to continue playing catch. It really depends on whether you want to continue playing catch or you're just there to prove how hard you can throw the ball. It's the same with discussion. Why are you here? Do you want to "play catch" or just prove a point?

And I really do want to applaud those of you who have been making attempts to contribute to the vision statement rewording. I think that's a very constructive way of bringing the forum back to where Darren wants it to be, so take a bow. You deserve it.

I thought this was owned by the Stargate Franchise.....oops my bad!

So, this is Darren's house right? He pays the rent! Not you or me but Darren!

His rules!

His say!

We are guests in his house!

We come inside, hang out, talk to people we have met here, then we go home!

Some people are going into his guest rooms and have been saying stuff he really doesn't like..so he is asking people to be a little nicer to eachother or you can get your coat and leave!

This is a Darrenocracy people...Shape up or ship out!

Or am I wrong?

This is a fantastic analogy. Probably the best one I've read so far.

[ShadowMaat]

So nope, not all viewpoints are welcome at GW anymore, only positive ones.

I wouldn't go that far, but I do think the current wording of the vision statement implies- to me, at least- that negative viewpoints aren't as welcome as positive ones and that any criticism will be under much closer scrutiny than the praise in order to make sure that it's "acceptable" and doesn't infringe on the enjoyment of others. Critics are also pressured strongly encouraged to say positive things as well as negative ones so that they don't bring down everyone around them with their constant pessimism and hostility which has, by the way, made the forum such an unpleasant place and really isn't the kind of stuff we want to see here at all.

That's why I tried re-wording the statement to reflect a more balanced attitude about the problems with the forum. If you have similar issues with the wording I suggest you give it a crack, too. Maybe between the bunch of us we can get a statement that more accurately reflects what WE want to see while still maintaining the spirit of the changes Darren plans to make.

[amconway]

That's not my understanding. The vision statement is quite clear: 1) say positive things about Stargate, or leave; 2) if you really need to criticize something about the show, say it once and beat off. Needless to say, such RULES will be enforced by the mods next year because the fanboy/girl sect will make sure they do enforce the new rules, be it by reporting negative posts left and right, or by harassing anyone who dares criticize anything Stargate. So nope, not all viewpoints are welcome at GW anymore, only positive ones.

Vision Statement:

You may express a criticism of the show if you can do it in a respectful and constructive way, and then let it go. Don't let your hatred of a character, a writer, or a storyline become the thing that defines you. Likewise, treat your fellow forum members with respect: Allow them to hold and to voice their opinions, too.

No, it says go ahead and express your criticism politely, then move on to something else, because once people have your point, there is no need to go on and on and on-and on and on and on. That's just annoying and pointless.

[Laura Dove]

Closed post: Well, that was the biggest load of crap that i've seen all year. TPTB just haven't got a clue.
Open post: I have to say it wasn't the greatest of episodes. I wasn't sure what they were trying to do with plot x, but I don't feel it worked because... I wish that TPTB would have gone xxx way with the plot, I feel it might have worked better, what do you think?

Don't worry, it makes perfect sense. However, to get a discussion, it must go both ways.

Closed post: This episode was awesome. The best ever! It's just made of win.

Open post: This episode was great because it's so good to have an insight into why character xxx behaves the way he does. It all lit his previous actions and explains why he did xxx last season. And did you see his expression at the end? To me, it seemed he was thinking xxx.

[nx01a]

And what if someone engages you on that negative point you've made and moved on from? What if you're having a good-natured back and forth, respectively and respectfully stating and expanding on your views on the point in response to comments on it? Would that be considered not 'letting it go'?

There's discussion and then there's making a statement. Again, this is a 'discussion' board.